Is America worth patriotism?

Angry, why would you be in danger being 'beat up' for wanting a return to those ideals that are the foundation of our nation?

Honesty, integrity, and honor are forgotten moral bedrock in this consumer driven society now. And it is this common sense approach that is needed to return us to a place where our very lives are no longer in danger from the corporate juggernauts that want to swallow America.

Every new court judge ought to be tested for just these qualities before taking office, so that they will not twist the Constitution to meet the needs of greedy companies and individuals.

And the Constitution, IMO, does need updating from time to time. That idea was built in with having the amendment process. But the amendments should be made with the use of moral intention, not greed and easier corruption.

Good post.

I would be in danger of that because people tend to skim long post such as mine. If all they saw was the words

The Constitution in and of itself is nothing more then a piece of parchment

without reading the rest of the post, well you can imagine the chaos that would happen. it would be the great Angry American cook out with me being the burger on the grill (A.K.A flame wars ). I know people skim as you well know I've even done it on a few occasions. and its usually bit me but only after I've made a fool of myself.

People tend to put there faith in things instead of ideals. Doing so causes us to basically worship the thing instead of the ideals. Things have no power ideas have power. things are just a reminder of the idea. So you can see why I was concerned. I believe in common sense. unfortunately there doesn't seem to be much COMMON left in sense.

Well, I try not to ever skim, so I had no problem. And it is the ideals that we should cling to.

That thing of personalizing freedom has led to this two party system where people vote for the party and not the person. That's part of why we get some of the jokers that we do.

And if they want to flame over it, we'll stand together!

I haven't had time to go through this whole thread and I doubt I will but allow me to answer the question being asked in the thread title.

In my opinion, America is not worth patriotism. Now this is just an opinion, but I feel that the people who put in a lot of effort and time to be good citizens and patriotic rarely see anything in return from the big guys. It's a one way street. Everday citizens don't get anything for being patriotic.. except for some fat taxes.

reply to post by Roland Deschain


While this may be true, at least most of the time, it isn't what motivates me. I am driven by what America could be, not so much in my lifetime, but for my children and grandchildren.

Patriotism, like love itself, makes one cling to even a memory and a hope.

I've not had time to skim through this post myself, i only get a chance to come on in work so i'm just gonna try and stay impartial as i can but still get my opinion across if that makes sense? counter my arguments if you will.

Over in England at least, America is perceived as more of a machine than a country. It APPEARS as though they simply grind along to pproduce more and more. I'm British, i WANT to be proud of my country. But i can't, I think that's what's happened over there, except many are still deluding themselves that their country is still great.

The UK used to be the powerhouse of the world, with everything going for it. After WWI things slipped, back in the 1800's there would have been very few forces in the world that could have provided a huge amount of opposition (not definite however).

Come World War II we tipped our hat to the next superpower which was the US. I won't deny that we needed the help in the European theatre of war. Empires rise and fall, though we're still here we lost our place amongst the strength of the world. During this time, we represented a country of massive pride, determination but strength. America represented a shy behemoth unwilling to accept its strength.

Now, it seems the UK feels in US debt, and America has let this power go to its head. It's strong and it knows it. One article in an English newspaper spoke about how in the chase for depleting emissions, the American ambassador had found the terms 'unacceptable' and refused flatly. Every country has to do its part, but the US slammed this. Why? Losing some of its industrial output, or spending money would have caused a decrease in its political sway. This wouldn't be allowed to happen, but had the US agreed and a country with weaker political savvy, I believe it would have applied some 'political force'.

One rule for one, one rule for another. Whether this is true or not is another story of course. But as a ruling superpower, is this the example a country of it's stature should present? The UK is doing its part for the planet but believe me, it's costing us. Our government refuses to dip its hand into its own pockets, and instead hikes up our taxes. Ludicrous payouts need to stop too, i don't know whether there have been incidents like this, but in Liverpool, the Mathew street festival brings in massive amounts of revenue for the city, soaring into the millions, but this year was in effect cancelled due to a lack of planning. What happened to the man in charge of the failure? Asked to resign, and given £250,000 for the privilege.

Until crap like this stops, the country and the world won't go much further than it is now. Until we stop looking at the whole 'my country would kick you country's a** we'll get nowhere i'm afraid. Countries keeping all their discoveries to themselves. Look at it this way, the planet and its countries are like orphans. As children, we're taught to share and play nice with the children we're left with. We've not had the parent there to teach us, so we're going to have to learn that ourselves or we'll never escape the orphange.

Bit of a strange analogy but there's sense in it. Have a think about it. The current NWO perception sees a world government of slavery, mindcontrol and worse. Where to these speculation and ideas come from? Most movie stories originate from World domination, slavery etc. isn't the "Country" just world domination on a smaller scale? It may be our only key to advancement and avoiding exhausting our resources by pooling them.

Comments, compliments and Shoot-downs welcome

Edit: Just to add, US and UK in particular would benefit most if the politicians had the strength of heart and valour of those past.

[edit on 20/12/07 by Longy4eva]

reply to post by NGC2736

I have only read the opening statement here, but felt the need to say somethig to you right away. I think that this is a very timely topic, and see that it's opening precedes the Lakota Movement. In light of this event, this topic becomes all the more important to open closed eyes and closed minds.

I agree with the responsibility that belongs to those who forcibly took a nation away from the indigenous peoples. But as you have mentioned your longevity as a citizen here, surely you see that the majority of the U.S. citizens are in support of bettering the lives of the American Indian. Apparently, our government does not agree. I have long mourned the fate of the American Indian.
On the Lakota Freedom Movement thread, is the first time I have experienced such ill thoughts and predjudices about these down-trodden citizens. I was absolutely shocked at certain outlooks and comments. But in spite of this, I still feel that the majority of ppl in the U.S. do sympathize with the AI.
When you see the destruction brought down on this planet by modern civilization, you have to wonder if the AI, had the better idea. At least, I, personally wonder about these things.
I can't help but believe that if the situation was put up for a vote from the citizens, the AI would prevail in a lot of their aspirations. Maybe it's wishful thinking.

reply to post by NGC2736


o.k., now i have read this topic in it's entirety. I am very glad that I did. I see a lot of arguing about agreeing or disagreeing, but I see no real results of your appeal. And that (to me) seems to be your primary reason for opening the topic. I can't think of a better place where all individuals can come together and make responsible decisions about effecting change in our society. And NGC, I love this statement:

Libra, the answer is simple, return to the Constitution. Argue and change all you want. fix or unfix whatever. But do it all under the framework of the greatest document so far devised by man.

I wanted to offer some suggestions of a constructive nature also. The foremost thing that came to my mind, was putting our constitution back to it's original form. That will not fix everything, but it is a great start.

I feel that America was simply setup 250+ years ago to become the enforcing tool to create a truly One World Government, I feel that America is a just another puppet government designed to focus the hate of the other nations from the actual perpetrators. Meanwhile, nobody can do anything about if they even wanted to because their military forces would always contain the most advanced technology and highly trained/special forces.

America is a uncontrolled titan of aggression.

The White Race in Relation to Native Americans

Throughout history, wherever white Anglo-Saxons have encountered a different race, or a less technologically advanced people then themselves they have (after the initial meeting) generally subjugated them in every way they could. We see this in the way the American Indian was treated as well as the Native African, the Aborigines of South America and Australia and throughout European History.

The cultural ideas held by whites, in regards to the Native Americans, were that they (the whites) were superior in every way. The Native American “savages” met the white settlers in a spirit of friendship, and it was returned for a time, (when they needed help to survive) then the cultural differences between the two races began to cause conflicts. The white settlers held the belief that men could own a piece of land exclusively and that no other man could come on to that land without permission from the land owner, let alone hunt or forage for food. The “Indians”, on the other hand believed that the land was there to be cared for and managed and could never be the exclusive property of any individual, they held the concept that the land, and all on it, was there for everyone to use and hunt. They had “traditional” tribal hunting grounds and limited mining and farming, but no personal ownership. The whites caused conflict by infringing on the traditional hunting grounds of the Indians looking for food animals and natural resources such as gold, silver and other precious metals, and the white farmers clear-cut hunting lands to plant crops. In other words the Indian was in the way and had to be dealt with.

The popular beliefs held by the white settlers were mostly formed by the Catholic Church and held that any non-Christian was inferior and must be converted. The missionaries would try to convert, mostly without even trying to learn the native language, but were easily offended by the Indians “celebration of nature” (partial nudity, and in some cases, plural marriage). They were also horrified by the native religious practices involving “nature worship” and “idolatry”.

The concept of “manifest destiny” was another popular belief of the whites at the time; this involved the idea that we were destined by God to own the whole continent from the Atlantic to the Pacific. We were quite put out to find “our country” already occupied.

In short, the combination of the white settlers supposed superiority and technological advancement over the natives gave the whites the idea that they could and should push them out of the way either by putting them on reservations or killing them if they would not or could not fit into white society, usually in the lowest most menial positions.

Isn't it evident how many wars nationalism and blind patriotism has started?

In-your-face, flag-waving, high-preaching Patriots piss me off.
Fine be proud of where your from.
Don't force others to be.

I am heartened that this thread continues to find an audience, and to reach the hearts and minds of people. I started this thread long before I became a moderator on this forum. (I was shocked to be asked to join the staff, as I see nothing that special about myself. )

In the end, we must all do whatever seems best to advance the welfare of the human race as a whole. There is an old saying among my people that "Where one person starves, many are to blame." It applies to more than food, of course.

Yet, I am proud of the ideals that this nation was founded on. True, these ideals have seldom been lived up to, but that doesn't tarnish the ideal itself. Even though my race has seen the "short end of the stick" from the Federal government, that is the fault of men who used their power and position to pervert those ideals, not a fault of the ideals themselves.

In my mind, modern America is like a man who lives in the mansion built by his forefathers, yet because of his laziness and slovenly ways, has allowed the mansion to crumble around him, even as he still pretends to being a gentleman. Because we have allowed the foundation to settle, the house is in danger of collapse.

I'm just being pragmatic about helping any country. It's never about patriotism, I don't have any, it's about the lesser evil.

The US is the lesser evil. If the US collapses, I can't imagine what will happen to the world.

reply to post by ChiKeyMonKey

Originally posted by ChiKeyMonKey
I think one of the biggest problems with America is that most of the people there have never been out of their own state, let alone to another country.

BTW The internet was invented and developed by CERN.

info.cern.ch...

Really? AlGore will be upset that you said that!

Seriously, CERN did not invent the internet.

Really, there was no excuse for what the white government did to the Native American in the name of expansion of the white man. It is something that we have to live with as a people as a nation. But the nation is far more than what it sins are. We are the greatest nation in the world. People from all over the world come here to try to make a better life for them selves and their families. People from all walks of life come here. We also have the best government in the world, we may not agree with what they do, and when that happens, we fire them by electing different representatives and senators and all the way to the presidents themselves.

Anyone can come here and make a go for themselves here in the country. We have jobs, health care, education, and what ever else you could want from a country. This country, weather it is going through hard times or an economic up swing. you can make money no matter what you want to do. If you are homeless in America you want to be homeless. There are too many ways to make money with very little restriction on how to do it. With enough will and gumption, anyone can rise from a lonely bag boy to the new corporate CEO, Doctor, or Teacher.

Education is a big part of the us. As a country we don't take advantage as we should of the education that is available for us here. People from Asia, the Middle East and Europe come hear for education in our higher schools of learning. Our universities are recording more and more foreign students every year. But us as American don't rank as high as other countries do when you have so many choices for education. There are your major universities. for those who want a professional career and want to study right out of high school. Then there are the two year community college and trade schools for those who want something that is not as intense and for jobs that need specialized training. Then there is online school for those who need to work to get buy but want to better their position in life and don't have the time to go to a brick and mortar school. If you apply your self you can accomplish anything.

The last, and most important, point is that America is tolerant, for the most part. What I mean is that you have freedom of religion as long as it doesn't interfere with the next guy. Freedom of speech as long as you try not to hurt and not be liable. Now there is hate and racism in this country, but that goes on in every country around this globe. The human being is one of the most hateful beings on planet Earth. But here in America, we are the most tolerant. Things might get strained from time to time when someone gets stupid does something ignorant but in the end, we all find ways to get along or at least put up with each other.

We here in America may not get along all the time. We even had a war to prove it. But we still come together in the end to form one of the most perfect nations on this planet. It is the pinnacle of a republic and a free society. Though we have our own bad past sins, the only thing we can do is just remember them and learn. We are have the best health care, the some of the best education, the best military and by far the best opportunity for anyone to make something of themselves.

Phew!!!

That was alot to get through but here I am placed on the blank 'canvas' staring me in the face. As it stares me in the face I find alot buzzing through my mind. I like to fancy myself a bit of an essayist. I like to tell it like it is too but the problem I find is that 'what it is' may not be 'what it is' for others. So here I sit in this dilemma. Do I totally agree with OP? Nope. Do I totally agree with AA? Nope. Do I agree with myself? Yes of coruse I do but who am I to say I am right? Who am I to say I have the right ideas? I could do something that a million people support and end up sinking us further. I find the greatest idea is to look inside yourself. Pay attention to people. When I went through my BA in psychology one of the doctors once told me a little secret. I approached him and asked him what is the real secret to learning about people? (Oh yes...that's right I am bright-eyed and I do believe in the good of all despite what some have done)

He motioned for me to come closer. I leaned in and he spoke, rather loudly, right into my ear and said "PAY ATTENTION!" I remember at first being taken back as he blasted in my ear but I know he did it with the greatest symbolism I have encountered yet. The reason he yelled it as I later confirmed with him is because it is the easiest and by far the simplest precept known to man. Pay attention. So I remember lmost going through a depression right after that. I thought he was mad at me and recognized that I was the one not paying attention. I never did ask him as once I left that funk I found a brand new world that I have learned more from than I will in any book you will ever show me and more than my masters and PhD I will some day attain.

So I set out to pay attention. I didn't know what Iw as paying attention for and I didn't bring a notebook. Thank goodness too because the complexity of the human psyche is so vast that I could cover it in 1 trillion books.

What is a psychologist I was once asked. My answer was a person who tells you what you already know. Nothing more and nothing less in my opinion. That persona asked me why I will get paid so much for my work? I said...insurance. The reality is every single one of you has an amazing psychologist in you. That's right...right inside. I promise you I am not Billy Mays and I am not selling you a line to buy a product. I have no product. My product is me and nothing more. Ever helped a friend who was down and you told him or her something and then BAM their eyes light up and suddenly they understand what was missing? You are a psychologist.

Now then...as off topic as this may seem allow me to drag this to my point. Pay attention. Go silently watch people. You can do it alone or intteract with others. Here is the secret I learned from all this. There is no truth that is shared by all. The OP asks a harsh but lovely set of questions. Is America worth Patriotism. Well let me as you this. Who am to decide if it is? Oh I have my own answer inside but would it really make a difference if you knew the answer? Would it change your mind?

I saw a man here talk about being a veteran and almost spouted into one of my favorite lines in movie history. In Demolition Man the character living under ground says the following;

"I like to think, I like to read. I’m into freedom of speech and freedom of choice, I’m the kind of guy who likes to sit in the greasy spoon and think; should I have the t-bone steak or the jumbo rack of BBQ ribs with the side order of gravy fries. I want high cholesterol. I wanna eat bacon and butter and buckets of cheese, ok? I wanna smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section, I wanna run through the streets naked with green jell-o all over my body, reading playboy magazine, why? Because I might suddenly feel the need to, ok pal?"

Now I am not condoning cigarettes or nudity or whatever else he says here but damn..isn't that what we are supposed to be about? You want to be a vegan? Go! You want to eat meat? Go! Take the simplest line from medical school. 'Do No Harm'. A simple precept and yet ignored so often. Live your life and do no harm. Do that and I promise you won't infringe on others.

Now in this same post I saw the OP empassioned and then beaten down by people who think he is nothing more than a doom sayer. What's my opinion on it? They are both right. Why because they are both sentient human beings who have the freedom to speak their minds.

So now the big question. What about me? What do I think?

I agree America has messed up. I also agree that practically every other country has messed up as bad and sometimes worse or not as bad as us. So here is my plan that I have already been enacting for some time now. Do what you want and can do to make this place better.

If AA and Texas wants to sit and eat and drink beer all day than dammit fire away my friends. You've helped me whether you know it or not and you've helped make this place better. Know how? You are a shining example of freedom. You do your thing and expose your right to act or not act.

OP has helped make the place better too. He opened some eyes.

The people who disagree with OP have done great things too. They show their freedom to ignore another.

The point is do what you are both capable of AND willing to do. If that is nothing then continue living your life as a shiny example of freedom. If you can change politics, go do it. If your plan is to talk here and get people passionate? Do it.

My plan involves micro-influence and I live it every day. If I see someone drop a wallet I pick it up and return it. If I see someone struggling with packages I help them open their car door. If I see an elderly couple having issues I fix the issues if I can and accept it when I simply cannot. Then I go an volunteer for a couple of organizations. I also help maintain an important fleet known as the US Air Force. For those who wish to look it up, my previous job was as a 2W271 in active duty and I am now a 3M071 in the reserves.

There is no simple answer OP. I wish there was. I think the best is for all of us to do what we are capable of willing to do. Live Free or Die? How bought we just live free? Living free also includes the right to not vote and to not try to make the situation better. The problem lies in responsibility. What do you feel responsible for? Found it? Then fix it.

Nice thread OP

-Kyo

America never was about Freedom, though it helped keep the sheeple in line.. and now they're slowly waking up..

flagged and starred

reply to post by NGC2736



You said it perfectly!

The fact is, this is not the America that our forefathers meant it to be anymore.

The America today is based on making sure corporations are protected but not the people.

It drives me crazy, when I hear people complain, yet when there is a call for action, they do nothing!

But when people do act, the govt ignores them.

I know, I called tons of the people of the Congress and Senate for both the FISA bill and the "bailout" - they told me, all the calls they were getting were against, but did they listen to "The People" - NO they ignored them.

Yet when the election comes around, most of those people were voted right back in.

I used to try and raise my voice constantly to the govt. - and I have gotten those "nice" little letters that say: Thank you for giving me your opinion and participating in the American government.

Yeah, well they have never listened - I have now stopped trying, especially after the bailout - since the marjority of the people were against it.

Now, I am finding an outlet in another way of "raising my voice".

But the American people have to fight back to have what our forefathers meant America to be once again. The problem is, America now does not have that "fighting" spirit anymore.

You wrote the exact words and frustrations I have been feeling.

It is kind of like when Dennis Kuninich - at the Democratic Convention this year - got up and yelled :

WAKE UP AMERICA WAKE UP!
\
Question is: Will it be too late, when everybody does?

You how many people would die if America stopped sending food and supplies overseas to third world countries?


America today can't undo what happened a hundred years ago. They can only change their ways. America is a super power as of right now which brings responsability for the World as a whole.


I would like to see if China or the U.S.S.R became the only world powers, how much they'd really help the world...