Is America worth patriotism?

You posted while I was distracted and typing. I think we are close on this. We just want the best for our country. Getting along is a good start. I just ranted a little so please ignore. Sometimes I'm too quick to react.

The 'unamended' Constitution and Declaration of Independance are worthy of loyalty and patriotism, IMO..
As for the politicians, the military-industrial complex, and their 'version' of patriotism... well that's another matter completely..

Blaine, that is what this place is about, realizing that there is not that much that separates us. We are Americans, we want the best for our children.

I too can be abrasive. It is often to my detriment.

Let us work forward together to find common ground and path from this wilderness.

Oh golly gee what a surprise another American bashing thread, I'm shocked.

Sham on you. You claim you fought for this country yet you speak as tho your an out sider.

How dare you associate the American people with the American government. If in fact you truly live in America, Go away. We don't want you. You cause trouble and grief. you sit on the sidelines and cry oh America your such a bad place. Never remembering that people like me and my brother shed blodd to give you that right to set on the sidelines and whine.

You see only darkness and grief. The light of the truly good American people could be staring you in the eyes and you would not see it, You refuse to see it. You are not part of the problem you are the problem. You are a hate monger every bit as bad as the present president. Show me a country that was started any other way.

Thats easy there isn't any. The only difference is America being the newest country is remembered for what happen to the natives. There was always somebody living on some piece of land some ware in some country and somebody else wanted it. So they took it. It doesn't excuse it and it doesn't make it right but to single out one group of people who have done what every other group has is wrong. What of the good that is done by people in this country? Wares the credit for that?

Please move to another country America doesn't need another trader we have enough in our government.

Angry dude, get a life. First, use spell check once in a while, and calm down. If you had reading comprehension skills higher than third grade, you would already know that I am a vet myself.

And your 'intelligent' response is that everyone takes land from someone, is just your tiny little brain trying to figure out a way to explain it's reason to exist . You missed the part where I referred only to written treaties and documents.

And your advice for me to vacate this nation is silly at best. I'm trying to improve my nation. Unlike a feeble minded twit that wants to just feel good about his testosterone level, my purpose is constructive. And since my race predates others here, where should I go?

Now I have been nice so far, despite the way you have attacked me. Please note that I and Blaine, an earlier poster, were in disagreement, but neither of us reached your childish level of stupid behavior. And both of us seem to have emerged the better for the rough exchange. In that spirit of betterment, the next time you speak to me so disrespectfully, I will tear you a new posterior.

Originally posted by angryamerican
Oh golly gee what a surprise another American bashing thread, I'm shocked.

You might want to check out this thread
www.abovetopsecret.com...

NGC, you truly are a refreshing voice once in a while. If only there were more people so willing to speak their minds on things like this, maybe we could get something done for once.

God Bless you,

TheBorg

Yes. And I would send my children at 18 to war too. Sorry but my country right or wrong. Now I am off to drink a six pack, shoot my AR, and bang my wife in a free country.

Oh and tomorrow I will fill up my truck with GASP gas, and eat fast food for lunch......After that i might go shoot some bunnies and burn a tree making jerky.......TX is still free...Trust me, we do what we want and always will....Oh and we pray before football games too.

proud TXN (1/5 INF BN 1st BDE 25th ID)

[edit on 15-5-2007 by TXMACHINEGUNDLR]

[edit on 15-5-2007 by TXMACHINEGUNDLR]

Originally posted by NGC2736
You, America, have not lived up to the treaties and agreements that you made with Native Americans.

You mean 'we' don't you? Of the people for the people by the people?

I agree in general, just wanted to point that out...America is either the sum of its citizens or it is not. It is not an entity without life on its own.

You voted for those that cut federal spending for school lunches.

Actually, no, personally I have NEVER voted...it seemed hypocritical to choose one evil over another when I was in no position to make it right.

BUT today I registered to vote. I figured that if a person seeks to be elected president, they should probably be listed as a voter. And at the very least, you get ONE vote!

I expect no response here.

Then hopefully I will be a 'pleasant surprise.'

You cannot expect to have respect until you show yourselves worthy of it.

That is EXACTLY right!

Do you have it in you to change America? Because you are America.

YES I DO.
And I WILL.
YES I AM.
I am liberation incarnate.
I will be America until she can hold her head up with honor on her own....I have no secrets from myself but I do know things about these messes we're in that I will share freely and without excluding myself or pointing fingers at others.

I will even bear the brunt of those I follow and make no excuses even though I could...I'm not that type.

I see simple solutions and not any true problems. I also don't see anything workable in any situation other than the truth as best as it is known/understood. And I am not worried about making people mad. Maybe it is good. Purging is long overdue...and then self-examination through the eyes of the other nations....

There will be no accountability until you hold yourselves accountable. There will be no disclosure until you divest yourselves of secrets.

The 911 thing is a global thing...going way back in history. But it can be fixed...no one need pay any further than already has been paid. We must just FORGIVE unconditionally yet never FORGET what happens when we divide instead of unite....the world fell that day...not just a part or portion.
It was a test of our own mettle...we didn't seek to heal but instead sold out freedom for false security. Terrorists? Show me some and I will show how friends are made from foes. I mean it.

And I ain't scared of anything. Except losing what was so hard fought to establish less than 300 years ago by noble men with exceptional courage and vision. I do not want to lose freedom but fear of that is empowering (which is rare for fear to be empowering but for me, in this case, it is).

We are no longer a well loved nation, and if you close your eyes to the reasons for this, we will fall. And the fall will be great.

I wholeheartedly agree! And if American can't lead by example into a peaceful domestic new age...then the world will never have peace, either.

But red white and blue doesn't RULE the world...we have NO right to meddle abroad when we are so scared of our own shadows that we make situations and then declare war on our own fears.

I refuse to be scared!

Yesterday I struggled to try.
Today I will win.
For the ALL.
And then hopefully go live on Gilligan's island with broadband and a private racetrack and a couple of mopar delicacies or something fun...or maybe I'll become a rock star!!!

But first I gotta get a job...and maybe some 'glamour shots'.

So, remember my name to write in:
L A Myers-Campos
and I am from New Mexico.

I'm dead serious, too. Vote for me and pray for us all!

Thanks for your post. It was encouraging for me because I feel the same as you. And I can't let it go. I must do what I can. And I know I can and so I will! For all of us. Because once something is lost...it is gone forever. That would be the true shame!

Zorgon, interesting post. Thank you.
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Borg, thanks for the support. I try to always tell it like I see it.
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Texas, I too love my country, right or wrong. And because of that, I try to help her become a better place.

Your "to do" list sounds fine as long as it's not my beer, my wife, my rabbits, or my tree. Put out your own campfires and pray whenever and as much as you see fit.
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Queen Annie, Your words sound right, but I've learned to distrust words. So I will wait to see if you are a worthwhile choice. You already have two strikes against you; your lack of a voting past shows a lack of effort, not a "choice to do no evil", and that whole Queen thing isn't very red, white, and blue.(And after 6 years of King George, a bit much.)

[edit on 15-5-2007 by NGC2736]

Bar the usual few chest-thumpers, this is quite an interesting thread. Some very good points on all sides.

I would be interested to hear what the OP thinks could possibly be done for America to regain the trust of the world community?

IMHO no country is worth patriotism. We are all human at the end of the day and lines on a map should not have any bearing on that. I don't care if Americans love your country or not, it is when this professed love blinds you from what is being done in your name that I get a bit riled. That is what Patriotism has become to mean in the US and it is an ugly ugly thing.

There are such nice people in America and we really want to be friends with you all again, but you are not making it easy for us.

Originally posted by NGC2736
Angry dude, get a life.

I have a life a very good life In a country I believe in.

First, use spell check once in a while, and calm down.

Oh golly the world will end three words were misspelled. As for calming down that in my opinion is one of the biggest problems with this country. to many people let to many other people like you run there mouth and make things worse instead of trying to make things better.

If you had reading comprehension skills higher than third grade, you would already know that I am a vet myself.

There is nothing wrong with my reading comprehension skills I saw the part ware you claimed to have fought for American. being a vet doesn't give you a right or a reason to question patriotism.

And your 'intelligent' response is that everyone takes land from someone, is just your tiny little brain trying to figure out a way to explain it's reason to exist . You missed the part where I referred only to written treaties and documents.

I missed nothing and as for the size of my brain its big enough to see that people like you are the problem. If you had any kind of reading comprehension skills you would have seen what I wrote. Hear let me remind you.

Originally posted by angryamerican
It doesn't excuse it and it doesn't make it right but to single out one group of people who have done what every other group has is wrong.

And your advice for me to vacate this nation is silly at best. I'm trying to improve my nation. Unlike a feeble minded twit that wants to just feel good about his testosterone level, my purpose is constructive. And since my race predates others here, where should I go?

How is ignoring all that is good constructive? Your post is full of hate hate is not helpful. As for ware you go, don't care. That's my point every nation has some good and some bad. every place has a skeleton or two in there closet.

Now I have been nice so far, despite the way you have attacked me. Please note that I and Blaine, an earlier poster, were in disagreement, but neither of us reached your childish level of stupid behavior. And both of us seem to have emerged the better for the rough exchange. In that spirit of betterment, the next time you speak to me so disrespectfully, I will tear you a new posterior.

Wow you have a very odd sense of what is nice. Let me remind you.

If you had reading comprehension skills higher than third grade

Not nice

just your tiny little brain trying to figure out a way to explain it's reason to exist

Not nice

Unlike a feeble minded twit that wants to just feel good about his testosterone level

Really not nice

childish level of stupid behavior

not nice and pretty unintelligent as well

In that spirit of betterment, the next time you speak to me so disrespectfully, I will tear you a new posterior.

Be my guest. I'm not afraid of the written word. Tell me how is threatening me betterment? You claim you are trying to make things better and the best you can do is attack my intelligence and my man hood and then threaten me. that is why I say you are the problem. you are desperately trying to deflect peoples attention from the fact that your post is not helpful and some consider it treason. That is the beauty that is America. You can run your mouth and threaten all you want in a country that you would have others believe is all bad with no reason to be patriotic.

One more quick note Respect is earned not given. Just because you claim to be native American doesn't mean I have to respect you by default. you sir have not earned it in my book so none will be coming from me. Nor Do I expect or want any from you.

Romanticized garbage.
This is more of a 'Why I hate America' essay for the large anti-America establishment at ATS to flock to, than a post of any actual merit.

doggy, glad you asked. (It's so nice to get posts of substance-I too tire of the tirades that always come up when cherished feelings are challenged.) I started this thread with the hope that more ideas than my own could be brought to light.

I think, just my opinion, that we as a nation need to clear our past debts and problems. The Native American Question is only one, and it drew some heavy fire, of the problems that stand in the way of America returning to a position where our input will be valued in the world. As it now stands, we exert most of our influence through intimidation, and not by respect.

The problem naturally starts here at home. It is much like becoming solvent after a bankruptcy. Through lies, distortions, belligerence, and lack of a national theme of honorable behavior, we have squandered the respect that our nation had years ago. In simple fact, we are failing at being the good guys. We ought to clean up our act on the home front, showing the world that we have recovered from years of neglect for our own people.

When we do this, the world will see that we are no longer in the business of converting the world to ideals on paper, and then ignoring them in practice. There are so many problems that it will take some time to reverse our current low ebb of respect. But with will, and long term goals, we can do this.

We must address the gap between rich and poor. Because so many nations live at levels of poverty, they see our treatment of poverty here at home as a sign of how the US will treat them in the future. As long as basic health care is not addressed, basic food survival, basic housing needs are not met, or given band-aid fixes at best, then others will see the hypocrisy when we try to 'help' them.

As long as the rich are treated to a different level of 'justice', they will not expect fairness from us. When money buys freedom, and poverty pays the debts, no one will trust us to be fair in our dealings abroad.

When corporations have more rights than flesh and blood humans, those who cannot afford the bonds (pun) to corporate wealth will not see American industry as anything but thugs in suites. And the view will remain that our government is the servant of corporate wealth.

As long as we have a term such as 'white collar crime', blatantly displaying the fact that there are those who will not be held to the same standards as the working class, there can be no trust on a global scale. In America if you rob a bank from the lobby side you'll spend the next quarter century in jail. But if you do the same thing when you're a bank officer high enough up the food chain to steal 100 times as much, you'll do one forth the time, if any.

(And of note: how often do we see crimes by the rich punished by fines? That money is the governments way of getting their cut from the crime. Just as our rampant laws that confiscate property through drug busts.)

If you're a celebrity in America, a weapons violation gets you probation, and if you live in public housing it gets you a cot in the state pen. If you have the money to go into rehab, while out on bond for your third or fourth drunk driving charge, you get it set aside, and if you're not rich enough to even post bond you get AA meetings while serving time in jail as treatment.

Until we as a nation address the double standard that winds it's slimy way throughout the American system of government, from police abuse of power to the dangerous use of legislation by lobby payments, we will forever remain unethical in the eyes of the world.

And to the lazy and illiterate faction at ATS who find this post too long to bother to read, well, you are too lazy and illiterate to help with the problems anyway. That too is part of what is wrong with this country.

where you from?
i bet i can find all sorts of screwed up crap your government has done

BLA BLA BLA is what your post sounds like to me

with that dumb reasoning England should give back Ireland
Scotland and wales

France should be divided into 3 zones

You sound like a baby crying, as does much of the world

Australians should give the Continent back to the Aborigines

T he Muslims should Give Israel back to the Jews
who should then turn around and give it back to the Canaanites

stupid oozing liberal crap


to the victors go the spoils--get over it or go see a therapist

Angry, you are correct sir, I did attack you on a personal level. You have my public apology for that. I too am human, and speak as I think, which leads me to err. I was wrong to act in this manner. And I was not offended by a few spelling errors, I was obliquely pointing out that I felt that in your rush to judge me, your haste was unseemly.

Let me ask you, do you find anyone who questions the American system to be a traitor? If so, I am in historically good company.

What group did I single out? Did I point the finger of ethnicity? Do you understand that I was using the Native American issue as a reference for overall misconduct by our government?

And I do not ignore the good in America, but it would seem that I am a traitor, in your wisdom, if I do not ignore the evil. You sir, incurred my anger when you implied that you were the only true patriot on this forum thread, and that your brand of understanding was the only one worthy of consideration. And while I am sorry for my anger, it by no means lessens my resolve to keep on pointing out the mistakes and evil I see in this nation.

Those who hide behind the skirts of patriotism to promote the evils of empire are performing a cowardly disservice to our children's future. It is fine to have pride in the greatness that is at the core of America. It is foolishness to proclaim perfection.

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Iblis, there is no romance here. There is need for dialog, for correction of America's course. Sadly, we must first contend with those who view progress, or even the desire for progress, as something to be avoided because they feel it undermines their fragile sense of self worth.

A statement: I am not bashing America. I am pointing out the faults as I see them, and asking for ways that you, my fellow citizens, can help in rectifying these . If it seems to be bashing, then does the problem not demand more attention than ranting at me because I point to a problem. When has shooting the messenger ever solved a single problem?

Thanks for your reply. I found myself nodding in agreement with the majority of it. I would extend it to say that what you have detailed in your last post could be applied to Western Society as a whole and not just America. I would also offer that the sins of America are more obvious because of how recently they have occured.

It seems in every western country there is a slide back to serfdom. Whereas in the past the peasants got to come out to cheer for the Lords and Ladies parading past in their finery we now have celebrities and patriotism to keep our eye off the ball as we once more return to a life of indentured servitude to the elite.

How to stop it though? How to break the illusion that we are no longer the "people" of the country but expendable assets to be used at the whim of the country we are brow-beaten by our peers into professing such love for? What worth patriotism indeed?

You suggested a great turn of maturity was required by the people. Judging by the appearance of the usual chest-thumping muppets in this thread, how do you see this great sea-change happening? What could possible get through to those that accuse anyone who makes any criticism of their beloved US of A as HATERS and TRAITORS?

Before you have any hope of turning the country around you need to harness the will of all the people. Those in power know this and this why we are polarised into "us" and "them" debates. Divided we fall.

The majority of arguments from those who disagree with the OP have been of a "Screw you Jack, I'm fine" flavor, so I would be interested in hearing more constructive criticism.

The one good point regards the Native Americans being swept over by the influx of "patriots" is that the supplanting of less organized/technologically advanced/aggressive races by those that are more so has been happening all over the world since year 0. I highly recomment Jared Diamond's books "Guns, germs and Steel" as well as "Collapse" for more detail on a possible explanation of why this happens.

Would apoligies truly suffice? Would not declaring a clean slate for all countries be fairer? Just a wild thought.

Yes doggy, it is not America's problem alone. I did not want to point to broadly, as I knew before posting that I would be in for a rough ride even from my own countrymen. Human rights are a global issue, and will only become more glaring as emerging nations rise from the dust. The west has a longer recent history on this subject, so we are naturally the ones first held up for inspection. Perhaps without thinking it completely through, we are expected to be role models. And we are making a poor job of it.

I know that it seems hopeless at times, for there will always be a core of 'haters' out there. IMO, they are really that way out of fear. They fear change, fear they will lose something in the process of creating a better world. It is not always the bravest bull that bellows the loudest.

The internet is the best vehicle for change that we have. As you and I speak across the miles, across borders, we see that people are humans everywhere. It is most often leaders that begin wars, and seldom farmers. Because the fossils that now hold power and wealth fear the net, they fight tooth and nail to control it. The free exchange of ideas and perceptions are what they fear more than bombs and bullets.

As most changes, the shift will not come painlessly or fast. Though in the end it may seem to be erupt, it will in fact be a generational thing. It will be our children and grandchildren that will laugh at the headlines of today. But it is our duty to prepare the path for them as best we can. Each time we show the truth and face the facts of our collective failures and shortcomings, we hasten the day when men will be in harmony.

There will be those who scream that I am unpatriotic, but they will be passed in the tide of the world turning to better education and understanding. As my generation passes, we can only try to light the path towards freedom.

Freedom is not a right of some more than others, the property of a few nations. Freedom is the the right of all people of all colors and faiths. Freedom will not be divided unequally and remain freedom. Freedom is indivisible for all men.

And wealth will grow when it is shared willingly. As a nation shares it's wealth among all it's members, not as communism would pervert the idea, but as brother caring for brother, then the foundation of that nation is strengthened. That is the concept that needs to be taught to our young. It would be foolish to build a fine mansion and set it on an infirm foundation. So too a nation that wants to be strong yet weakens any portion of it's base.

People now see only the vanguard of the change, and they fear being swept aside, when in truth, they could just as easy ride the tide to greater accomplishments than ever in the history of our species.

The personal attacks need to come to an end, folks.

Look, Patriotism is an extremely volatile subject. Blood is going to get really hot on this issue, but it is important to remember that the core strength of America is that people have different ideas and opinions about how it should be run.

There have been some amazing things done in the name of patriotism, and there have been some downright horrific things done. Mark Twain hated the very concept of patriotism, whereas Robert Heinlein embodied it. There are good arguments for and against the advantages and disadvantages of patriotism, and by all means, discuss them to your hearts content...

...but I cannot condone personal attacks on one another. You each need to learn to respect that you have different views and learn to discuss them rationally, without insults. Attack the view, not the person. Thank you.

(/mod)

Patriotism borders on nationalism.

Its a potentialy very dangerous area, look at what the 3rd Reich achieved with thier German patriotism.

What people seem to forget that it´s luck which determines where you are born, just because someone is lucky (if they are) to be born in the USA for example is it right to consider that country (which is just a a piece of land bordered, and labeled with a name) to be better than any other pieces of land just because one is born there.

I think not. Patriotism is silly, people should be proud of what they achieve themselves, not what thier country has achieved.