Is America worth patriotism?

I have read through post after post, thread after thread, some for, some against America. I'll speak of something I know about America. You, America, have not lived up to the treaties and agreements that you made with Native Americans. You fight tooth and nail through the courts, then bitch and moan when the evidence is not in favor of the majority of the descendants of those 'settlers'. Unwilling to give what you agreed to, yet buying goodwill abroad at a thousand times what you owe the First Americans.This is the shame of a nation.

You came, took what was not yours and now your children are unwilling to even live up to the agreements your government put down in black and white. And yet you want the world as a whole to show you respect as the land of the free and the home of the brave. Until you show the world that you will be faithful to your promises to Native Peoples, you cannot expect them to believe you elsewhere.You lost respect when you first chose profit above right. It has been a long road into darkness, and it has led to today.

What worth is your patriotism, if it is built on lies? Why should the world think that America is the 'good guy' when you cannot/will not fulfill your word here at home. So put forth your answers in support of the "good America" that you try to impress on other lands. Or else fall silent in front of the evidence of history. This nation was founded on deceit and aggression, on plunder for those with might. Let none speak untruth, America has a past as takers, of willful aggressors. Why should other nations expect different now?

I am now as American as any, I fought for this nation, I have earned the right to speak, and this 'holier than thou' attitude is hypocrisy. This nation is out for what it can get, and the devil take the hindermost. Your pious cries that no one understands the 'sacrifices' of America to make the world a better place are no more than the whining of a spoiled child.

I see the and hear daily these cries of how pitiful it is that the world lacks sympathy for how much America tries to aid the world. How no one really understands. I understand. I know that you are trying to buy the world's goodwill, all the while hiding your own diseased hands from view.

It is a fraud that pays for the food of another mans child to eat, all the while letting his own go hungry. It is a liar that preaches human rights, and does not practice that at home. It is a charlatan that says they have answers to the crisis in another land, and turns a blind eye to their own doorstep.You cannot police the world when you show corruption in your home place.

I post this not that I expect debate, for what is to debate? All of you know that while we spend millions on other nations, some of our own people go hungry. You voted for those that cut federal spending for school lunches. It is your representatives in those hallowed halls that draw fat paychecks and generous retirements, while there are people here in this land of plenty who put their children to bed without supper. You are the ones who vote time and again along party lines to return the same a**holes to seats of power.

I expect no response here. I post this to the shame of America. There is little to discuss when it comes to such failures . You lack the will to hold those who are YOUR voice in D.C. to any type of standard. But if you think the world at large fails to note your shallow behavior, you're wrong.

You cannot expect to have respect until you show yourselves worthy of it.

Why is this' rant' here? Because this is a conspiracy. A conspiracy of complacency. You are collectively too self absorbed to do more than vent at a keyboard. You have your SUV at the curb, your microwave dinner ready, so go on and ignore this. It is the way of this nation to ignore the truth. It is the way of those here to look for faults in others, all the while downplaying their own part in this tragic drama.

I will anger the majority with these words, but until the majority chose to WORK to clean house of the scoundrels, to right the injustices here at home, then there is no use in decrying those in other nations that have no respect for the Ugly American. And wanting the truth from the government will not come about until you chose to force it to.

Your endless search for the smoking gun of 9/11, for UFOs, for anything at all,is doomed to fail until you make the effort, the full time effort, to be responsible citizens. And that means more than whittling away some free time jawing over points of contention here on a forum. It means work.It means voting. It means emailing demands for constructive change. It means marching when you would rather be home resting.

Do you have it in you to change America? Because you are America.There will be no accountability until you hold yourselves accountable. There will be no disclosure until you divest yourselves of secrets.

If you think me wrong, if you think there is excuse for the way our nation plies the waters of the world, by all means, speak. But hear the words from those abroad as you do. We are no longer a well loved nation, and if you close your eyes to the reasons for this, we will fall. And the fall will be great.





Staff Edit of Title

[edit on 5/14/2007 by Djarums]

Originally posted by NGC2736
What worth is your patriotism, if it is built on lies?

America is just a place where people are free to take advantage of thier fellow man. The smart and the pretty are naturally supierior human beings who were chosen by god to rule over the ugly and the stupid.

In represive countries around the globe people are not free to take advantage of other people, quite like here. That's why the smart and the pretty want to come here.

Unfortuantly, we are losing our god given right to take advantage of the weak and the stupid though because lawyers, over enthusiastic legislators, taxing authorities and liberal cry babies are making the game more difficult.

You see it everyday, fat ugly people driving SUV's. Stupid people buying houses that they cannot afford. School shootings, drug deals in the streets, homeless people, raving lunitics on tv, rampent insecurity, illegal aliens being treated like citizens, liars everywhere, and everyone is worshipping money as if it's some sort of idol.

True americans love god and god hates all who deny him. His wrath is comming and the natural order will be re-instated, like it or not.



[edit on 13-5-2007 by In nothing we trust]

I think America has at times shown great promise, such as during the defeat of Fascism, the exploration of space, the invention of the Internet (by the American military), etc. and we should respect America for those things, and pledge ourselves to return Her to Her past glory.

I love watching the sun rise and set from the piece of land on which I dwell. Go USA.

I think one of the biggest problems with America is that most of the people there have never been out of their own state, let alone to another country.

BTW The internet was invented and developed by CERN.

info.cern.ch...

Being patriotic is great and loving your country and being proud of who you are and your national identity is surely a good thing.

Do Americans really know who they are? Do they really trust their leaders? Do they want to be at war for oil? Do they want to live in the world's worst polluter?

Is it all worth fighting for?

Is their a better way?

"Power to the people, retake your once great country and make it great once more for the world still looks to you for leadership and as of now you give us none". Me.

Yes, we have to redeem our national respect before other nations and people will want us around. And we have to successfully do a good job of our own nation before we start providing answers to the worlds problems.

Would you take advice on your investments from someone who couldn't do simple math? How about deep sea fishing tips from someone that has never seen an ocean? Would you feel comfortable with a blind firearms instructor? Well that is our position in the world right now. There are so many outstanding problems in America that never get addressed in a meaningful way, that the world as a whole refuses to take our so called solutions to heart.

If we can't fix our own problems at home, why the hell should the world want us to practice on them?

I see by the number of flags that this post is being read. There must be a lot of agreement with the statements as the opposition is usually more vocal when they think they can shoot down anything.

So who has constructive ideas to put into action to redeem America?

Who wants to do more than complain?

Who wants to oppose the 'NWO' path with more than words.

If we were all in a burning building, would it be enough to yell "Fire", or should people step forward and lead the way to the exits?

I vote. I send emails. I support groups that seek reform. I spread the idea of questioning the leadership. I encourage others to look at every bit of legislation as if their very lives depended on understanding it.

Who else is committed to changing our nation?

Perhaps here and now is where ideas should be bandied about for active solutions. Or must we wait till the time where only bullets will talk?

[edit on 14-5-2007 by NGC2736]

Originally posted by NGC2736
I vote. I send emails. I support groups that seek reform. I spread the idea of questioning the leadership. I encourage others to look at every bit of legislation as if their very lives depended on understanding it.

Who else is committed to changing our nation?
[edit on 14-5-2007 by NGC2736]

Trying to repair collapsing empires is an effort in futility. The best thing we can do is let is collapse(or help it along) and try to build something better from the ashes.

Vas

True americans love god and god hates all who deny him. His wrath is comming and the natural order will be re-instated, like it or not.

the wrath is not god it will be a recession that ko's the middle class especially, the confusion and suffering wil be an awful time but a necessity to get american's to wish for a "life vest" and the amero will be there to save us and the NAU will be phased together.

"GOD IS WITHIN U" we are all pieces of god/creation force we are all son's and daughters of god/the creation force. we are all the same

i beleive the sumerian's encountered some advanced beings that they thought were GODS and the bible and religous translations just dropped the plural translation and took advantage of the "power play" for manipulation

as well as the kings and queens of that day may well have been the offspring of the "gods" getting with the daughter of man. i think the whole shape shifting is disinfo. but that there was an inter breeding that happened

In 1997 I made my first trip to Arizona and woke up when I saw the way things are with our Native Americans.

I to this day have a hard time with the way you are treated and the lands they gave you to survive on. Shame on us.

I am surprised when our Pres. said our Constitution is just a God damned piece of paper but most people probably don't even know he said this because they are to involved in there lives.

Not only should everyone be proud of who they are but of there Countries and there Planet.

Mankind is who seperated themselves into different groups with there own different territories and agenda, so sad. We are all family and we should all treat each other as we would want to be treated.

Evilness/badness can come from the ways lives are lived. There is no reason why every single living being here is not truly equal in every way isuch as education and finances and so on.

IMO I think that monies should be done away with. We all need to learn to work together to help one another. We teach our children to share maybe we need to practice what we preach.

You all should see that Governments don't seem to be working the people have to take back ther planet. We all need a new beginning and it has to start with peace and all equality.

We all need to turn into HIPPIES, make love not war

America is great. Its the government that's not worth a damn.


And the Native American argument is a poor one. We can look at any country and find a history of indigenous people being driven out by a more advanced civilization.

Its a shame when people make these doom and gloom posts and mislead others who have never lived here or are not aware of the exaggerations or lies being spoon-fed to them through the biased media.

We have a great life here. Freedom includes the freedom to screw up our own lives. Many who post these rants blame their own failures on the system. You can only do that with a straight face when you live in a society with no freedom to pick your own path. Here we have that freedom and can choose to fail of our own accord. Unfortunately those who are unmotivated insist on blaming their shortcomings on the system that gave them the freedom in the first place. It is nearly impossible to fail in the United States if you try. It is easy however to sit around and complain and blame it on everyone else.

Every year millions try and enter this country illegally and many succeed much to our endangerment. Why do they take these risks? Because they know the truth. The only people going the other way are criminals, tax evaders, and the crazy fringe.

The Native Americans here in Alaska have it better than the non-natives. They own the successful Corporations. They get free medical, dental and a university education for free if they want it. The only problems I see are to do with the use of alcohol or drugs. Hundreds of years has passed and its time to forget what other dead generations were guilty of and build the future.

The 9/11 Conspiracy stuff is unknown to most and only believed by a tiny handful of people in this country. They are very vocal so it may seem as though there are many, but that is just not true. Of course they don't want others to know that because it takes away some of their self-perceived power. If 1% of the population knows what these conspiracy "Theories (not facts)" are about I'd be surprised. Maybe 5% have even heard mention of it. Most would read a couple of posts here and laugh and then never come back again.

It is past time to stop apologizing for things we had nothing to do with and pay attention to the here and now. This country is not doomed. It goes through cycles and changes just like every other culture in history has. It is time to stop feeling guilty about success and stop being sensitive to the rants of those to unmotivated to even try to succeed in life.

This constant attempt to make us feel guilty or to ruin our self esteem needs to be exposed for what it is. I proudly state my location in my profile and I note many of the radical detractors never do say where they are. Why is that. You don't really think anyone believes you hide your general location to protect yourself. Unless you were foolish enough to give your real name or a hint in your screen name whats the point. If you are going to trash someone else's home at least have the courage to say where you are from so it can be taken in context.

If you are just clinically depressed; please seek medical attention. Going through life inside of a dark cloud is not normal or healthy.

Originally posted by NGC2736
So who has constructive ideas to put into action to redeem America?

How about engaging in a foriegn war and an occupation of a hostile land half way around the globe?

Blame the whole affair on a bunch of terrorists who hate foriegn occupying powers.

Mobilize the military and the military industrial complex, give them an unatainable goal, a bunch of money and watch them go?

And then fund and train the terrorists as well, just to make it an even match.



[edit on 14-5-2007 by In nothing we trust]

Originally posted by uberarcanist
I think America has at times shown great promise, such as during the defeat of Fascism,

Umm NAZI = NWO Just the methods differ

the exploration of space,

All a lie and coverup... THEY already control space, but won't let you in on the secret

the invention of the Internet (by the American military),

Yup great invention... Instead of people getting out and socializing and experiencing life, they hide in chat rooms and threads where they get all sorts of weird ideas...

return Her to Her past glory.

Noble goal indeed, and its still the best damn country in the world... but returning to past glories is not in the official program... they have other plans for your future.

I say give Native Americans what was promised... if your word is not your bond, than what good is your word. If your word is not kept, there is no honor...if there is no honor there is no glory...

Interesting choice...NGC2736 "A star so bright it could be seen by natives 11,000 years ago..."



[edit on 14-5-2007 by zorgon]

Originally posted by Golack
America is great. Its the government that's not worth a damn.

Duly chosen by the people as I recall and TWICE

And the Native American argument is a poor one. We can look at any country and find a history of indigenous people being driven out by a more advanced civilization.

So that makes it right? I thought Americans were supposed to be BETTER than those other nations that stomp on peoples rights...

but if our current president did actually say the Constitution was just a piece of paper, then we truly are in trouble. Anyone have a link to that statement?

Vasilis, yes, letting America fall is one option. But I would rather see us fix what is wrong before that happens. If we can.

Golack,The Native American argument is not a poor one as you claim. It goes to the heart of keeping your word. A people that are not truthful in one matter are not truthful in others. A man who breaks his word once is forever suspect, so is a nation. In those instances, his character must be redeemed, as so a nation.

Blaine, forget the past? Why? Because one nation agreed to act in a certain way and now greed makes it hard to live up to the promises made in writing? If that is true, then every treaty on earth is worthless. Should we go to war with nations just because a new generation decides that they don't like what was agreed to in days past? That was Hitler's reasoning for WW2, is it yours as well? Or is this doubletalk to excuse today's failures?

Personally, I could give a rat's a** over your guilt. I only want you to be man enough to support what the government of the United States agreed to, of which you and your eagle avatar seem so proud. And this is the future, every moment is part of the past and part of the future. To build on the future requires that the foundation not be rotten.

The questions of America's actions are not about sensitivity, but about honor. Do you understand that concept? When you implore others not to be sensitive, you're telling the world that you find this a shortcoming. But your sensitivity is not the issue.

The issue is how America can become a great nation in the world instead of a bully that no one trusts. Your attitude about how unfair it is that those who owned the land you now live on in Alaska have it too good, meaning you wish they would act more like the second class citizens you see them to be, is the very reason there is the term 'Ugly American'.

I brought up the Native question because it is a prime example of why America is so mistrusted in the world. I want nothing from you except to stop whining because you're not allowed to be an elite person in Alaska. It's such a shame when people other than good old European people want to be treated as equals and get exactly what was promised.

As to who is who here in cyberspace, Blaine, who cares. I live in the states, I am as much a citizen as you. I vote, pay taxes, share in the fortunes and misfortunes of us all. I am one of a race that was over run by the westward expanse. I do not hold you or any other person now living responsible for the fate that has befallen us. This is life. But that does not excuse the U. S. from living up to it's word. And only by being trustworthy, will other nations trust us.

And if you find fault with those who tell you a truth that you are blinded to, then it's time to remove the red, white, and blue sunglasses that make this nation look so rosy.

Originally posted by ChiKeyMonKey

BTW The internet was invented and developed by CERN.

Another person who thinks the World Wide Web is the internet. What about FTP, SMTP, POP3, IM, News, time protocol, etc. that are based on TCP/IP.

By your logic the UK would have to make restitution to the Neanderthals.

Neither You or I are responsible for anything our ancestors did. If you are suggesting we all go back to our countries of origin that would be ludicrous. If you are suggesting we should pay debts incurred by our ancestors many generations ago, that is also ludicrous. If you are suggesting that Native Americans have any less opportunity in the United States than any one else you are wrong. But if you insist; The origin of our species would be in Northern Africa. Do you suppose we could all fit in that area? We all evolved from the same race so that negates that argument.


The only solution to our shortcomings is for us to be more patriotic, not less. You have to have pride in what you do and where you live before you can make changes. The gloom and doom crowd just complain all the time and do nothing constructive in this life. The radicals just make matters worse and can be counted on to never do anything. If you want change it has to come from within. Don't like the current government? Run for office. Don't have the credibility to run for office? Do something about it. Don't think you have the ability to run for office? Stop defeating yourself before you even try.

You misunderstood how I used the word "guilt". I have no guilt for what others did long before I was born. I've never knowingly harmed another human or taken anything from someone. I'm not one of those bigot's who judge people because of where they are from or based on their ancestry.

Giving up is not an option. If we cant make this system work then we can not make any system work. Not to mention most of the negative stuff on the net about the US is just plain untrue or warped so far out of perspective I have to question the sanity of those saying them.

I don't think the United States problems are any where near as bad as the problems in the majority of the world which does not have a free society or an elected government. Why not count your blessings you were not born in the Sudan or some other horrific place like the Middle East?

In our history, our country has made many mistakes and committed many wrongs. We can not change that now. We can only look to the future and try and do better. We are the United States. All that it is, is what we make of it. Should we be Patriotic? Damn right we should and if something is wrong we should fix it by using the system instead of fighting it. Only fools fight battles they can not win.

Blaine, I think we are closer than might appear. I too hold these things as worthwhile. To act as citizens means to act, and not sit on your can and cry for things to improve.

The 'Native American Question' is one often brought up when I was abroad. And it speaks a great deal for the way the general American character is seen. And this is not about what you or I have been involved in . The basic premise is that a legal entity, representing the United States of America, signed certain legally binding documents, and now want to forfeit payment as agreed to by contract.

If you use the same logic, then any debt, such as the trillions now outstanding against the U.S., are not binding because you yourself had no personal hand in approving the transactions that led to this.

As well, consider that the government of the USA remains in occupation of portions of the Middle East, despite the fact that Bush gave his word, REPRESENTING this nation, to do no such thing. Now under your assumption, once you and Bush kick the old bucket, it doesn't matter what was promised. Therefore, with your logic, if America can take over any part of the Earth and hold it for some period of time, then it is theirs by right of usage.

This is the logic that others see when America behaves dishonorably, as she has done to the Natives. They expect no better treatment at the hands of the American government.

Please make no mistake, I am now far removed from the reservation. I speak not for selfish gain. I am as main street as any. It would be hard for you to point to me as a 'blanket'. Yet, I know that it is this attitude of yours for self justification, by all illogical means, that holds this nation to such a low ebb in the eyes of the world.

When we are spending so much on war, and seeking the 'hearts and minds' of those in Iraq, what would a mere drop in the bucket matter if America cleared it's bill, and it's moral and literal debt, as it should? You are like so many, gag at a gnat and swallow a camel. You cannot be honorable until you act with honor in all things. No one will accept the moral highground stance from America until their actions line up with the rhetoric.

And cleaning up one's act starts at home. It was for this reason, because this is an example of the larger problems, that I brought up the Native Question.

[edit on 14-5-2007 by NGC2736]

Edited to remove a couple of stupid remarks. Sorry all.

[edit on 5/14/2007 by Blaine91555]