Some questions about Dulce.

Originally posted by David_Reale
Is it really necessary for an underground base like Dulce to have giant air vents? Can't they produce their own air down there if they have to, instead of putting out air vent shafts that can be spotted by anyone who cares to stop by? Seems a little stupid to me to reveal the presence of a base like that.

So is Dulce confirmed? I mean if the vents "reveal" it we must be 100% certain its there!

Air vents are easy to explain... Or one could simply say "we dont know" and leave it at that. As to why they would use them, its probably cheaper and easier than to produce their own air.

Sorry if I was unclear, I made that question from the assumption that Dulce DO exist, although I don't know it does. But I've got a feeling when it comes to a place like that, they won't spare any dough if itmeans keeping it a secret, although that's just my opinion, including trying to save money by putting out air vents. Then again, I've never accused alien-collaborators of being smart.

Originally posted by johnlear
I would like to get something clear here. You say that Paul Bennewitz swallowed everything hook, line and sinker. Could you please direct me to exactly what he said or wrote that would have you believe that he swallowed everything hook, line and sinker.

There is much information in the public domain that points towards Bennewitz believing the information and disinformation he was fed.

I suppose the 'hook' was his involvement with Myrna Hansen who related an abduction 'experience' to him while under hypnosis. Hansen told Bennewitz and Leo Sprinkle about an underground base populated with aliens where vats filled with human remains were stored.

That hypnosis session, I believe, is the genesis of the Dulce myth.

Leo Sprinkle had previously hypnotised another abductee Judy Doraty and she related a similar story to Hansen involving cattle mutilation, so Sprinkle's credibility may be questionable. Indeed, Bennewitz, according to Wikipedia, 'would later accuse Sprinkle of being a CIA agent and having nothing more to do with him.'

Bennewitz clearly believed everything he was 'uncovering' because on June 3, 1980, Sprinkle visited Bennewitz at his home and found the man armed with a pistol and a rifle. Sprinkle states, "He told me that the aliens could come swarming over the walls at any minute."

Bennewitz was clearly filming strange objects around the military base by his home but some (not all) of these are described suspiciously like 'rods' ie insects.

Add to the building paranoia Richard Doty's and William Moore's disinformation and false confirmations and the final results are well documented.

Moore himself confessed to his role in the psychological assault on Bennewitz at a UFO conference in 1989.

For further reading and listening, try these:

en.wikipedia.org...

www.martiansgohome.com...

www.greatdreams.com...

binnallofamerica.com...

Originally posted by johnlear
my policy is "trust but VERIFY"

Good man. Any chance of verifying the breathable lunar atmosphere, Meier's raygun and saucers, and the 'soul catcher'

Originally posted by torsion

Originally posted by johnlear
I would like to get something clear here. You say that Paul Bennewitz swallowed everything hook, line and sinker. Could you please direct me to exactly what he said or wrote that would have you believe that he swallowed everything hook, line and sinker.

There is much information in the public domain that points towards Bennewitz believing the information and disinformation he was fed.

Torsion if its not too much trouble could you please reread my post above yours and answer it. Thank you very much.

Originally posted by Tattoo1377

Originally posted by whaaa
The vents are in clear view from highway 537 on the Rez.

If they are clearly visible, then how about a photo or two, eh?
Not trying to be difficult or challenging to you in particular...

No disrespect intended towards any testimonials, but pictures of vents would be a strong contribution at this point, and reinforce the whole story IMO...
Cheers!

Sorry no pictures. The reason I didn't take any was because I assumed that the vents and bigass fans [12' dia] were part of the natural gas/oil production that is a huge deal for the Jicarilla's. They are not secret and are clearly visible with trucks coming and going all the time at these installations. Is this part of the base hiding in plane site? I don't know.
I now live 300mi from Dulce and expect to go fishing up there as soon as the runoff subsides. I'll try and remember to get some pictures then. There is a thread here on ATS that has some great pictures of Archeluta mesa by a guy that grew up in Dulce.

Originally posted by johnlear
Torsion if its not too much trouble could you please reread my post above yours and answer it. Thank you very much.

I think I answered it well enough. As I stated in the post you first responded to- it is my opinion, and my opinion is based upon the information I derive from various sources. Some of those sources have been linked to in my response to your question. If you are asking me for a written statement by Bennewitz himself saying "I swallowed everything hook, line and sinker!" then I don't have one. Likewise, I'm sure you haven't walked on the surface of the moon and breathed its atmosphere yet you postulate that the moon does have a breathable atmosphere... and as you quite fairly say, it is your opinion - but minus the verification!

If Bennewitz didn't swallow everything he was fed I think he would have retained his marbles, and who knows, maybe he would have lived a lot longer.

I'm always prepared to change my opinion should the information prove worthy, so feel free to try and convince me that the alien base beneath Dulce exists. My eyes and ears are open...

Originally posted by Whaaa
Sorry no pictures. The reason I didn't take any was because I assumed that the vents and bigass fans [12' dia] were part of the natural gas/oil production that is a huge deal for the Jicarilla's.

If those vents are 12' in diameter I'm sure they'll be visible on Google Earth. Can you direct us to the location, Whaaa?

Originally posted by torsion

If you are asking me for a written statement by Bennewitz himself saying "I swallowed everything hook, line and sinker!" then I don't have one.

Thank you torsion for clarifying that the statement was just an opinion. Paul Bennewitz happened to stumble onto the existence of dulce like I did, but through completely different channels. Your statement was making it sound like you had evidence that Dulce was hoax which it is not. And that has always been my opinion and the opinion of many others.

Originally posted by whaaa

Originally posted by Tattoo1377

Originally posted by whaaa
The vents are in clear view from highway 537 on the Rez.

If they are clearly visible, then how about a photo or two, eh?
Not trying to be difficult or challenging to you in particular...

No disrespect intended towards any testimonials, but pictures of vents would be a strong contribution at this point, and reinforce the whole story IMO...
Cheers!

Sorry no pictures. The reason I didn't take any was because I assumed that the vents and bigass fans [12' dia] were part of the natural gas/oil production that is a huge deal for the Jicarilla's. They are not secret and are clearly visible with trucks coming and going all the time at these installations.

Ok then, fair enough.

I humbly request anyone who reads this forum and lives reasonably close to Dulce to quest for these vents, get the pictures, and post them here along with details such as the mileage markers and possible landmarks.

This redundant cycle of speculation and debate is counter-productive...

Instead, let us work on revealing the truth about Dulce, that several brave people have endured criticism, ridicule, and harrassment over..
(Not to mention that people trapped there deserve an effort towards justice, no matter how futile)

I suggest we use your (whaaa's) knowledge as the compass..
The vents are in clear view from highway 537 on the Rez.

Please do not think I am being condesending or sarcastic, I am 100% serious.
Is this a good idea or what? Once we have the vent location, we have leverage towards exposing it.


[edit on 16-5-2007 by Tattoo1377]

Originally posted by David_Reale
Yo, ppl.

I'm trying to write a novel or book or something about Dulce (partly involving the supposed base there), and I've got some questions. I know nothing is proven fact, but I'm not arrogant enough either to believe that MY opinion is necessarily the true one, so what I'm asking for here is your opinion about what the case is.

:

There is no substantial, irrefutable evidence whatsoever that there is or has been an underground base below the Archuleta Mesa. The rumors are based on hearsay. I was in Dulce in late March of this year and even then I did not come up with any evidence on it, although my recent trip's purpose was not to go atop the mesa. Nevertheless I did gather some interesting anecdotes from the locals:

Dulce, New Mexico Revisited
www.rense.com...

Many have been on the mesa, however. Here is one report from a well-known researcher who camped overnight on the Mesa:

"I have been researching the alleged UFO incident near Aztec, New Mexico for almost 20 years. Aztec, New Mexico is only a few hours drive to Dulce, and I decided to see if I could find anything to the 'Dulce Mystery'.
In over 176 trips to the Four Corners area, from my home in North Carolina, I have had two occasions to go to the top of the Archuleta peak and camp overnight.

I have also found entrances as to where there had been some tunneling done and covered over with gahnite (spray concrete). After doing some research with J. Andy Kissner who at the time was a State Representative for New Mexico, we did find evidence that a mining operation took place in the late '40's that was connected to the Manhattan Project.
Apparently the Atomic Energy Commission was looking for a place to store 'waste material' and to hollow out the mountain was a cheaper option that storing it in Los Alamos. The mining operation stopped after a disagreement between State and Federal funding. That's the story we got and I have given you the very condensed version.
Small narrow gauge rail road rails are still left behind as evidence to the mining operation. The tunnel entrances can still be seen on the western slope of the mesa.
As you arrive in town, turn left toward the old Gambling Casino. This is before you would make the "s" turn heading toward the Best Western Hotel. Drive down that "new" looking two lane road to where it comes to a "t". You will cross a new bridge and an old railroad bridge will be on your right. On your left is the old water tower for the steam engine's. Down along the bank is another old bridge that is lying on the banks of the Navajo River. At the "t" in the road, go right and follow the river which will be on your right side. Go to the remains of the old bridge pillars (on your right and an old bridge that goes no-where). Look up to the north and you can see the old entrance.

Be extremely careful as that land is property of the Jicarilla Apache Reservation and they WILL FINE YOU up to $10,000 for trespassing. The best way around this is to purchase a fishing license at the Best Western Hotel and will be "safe" to be around the river. Purchase some fishing poles and some bait. The fishing is great.

I was detained for about 20 minutes back in early 2000. The Police Officers that detained me were Caucasian, not Indian. They were very interested as to why we were walking around the river and taking pictures. We were released after a brief warning.

To get to the top is rather tricky. As you follow the road along the river, you will find a road on your left that will take you toward the top, but the road has washed away. You must bear to the right and cut up through a valley and by-pass the washed out road. This trip is only possible with not only four wheel drive, but a high center vehicle as well. The Hertz Car Rental at the Farmington Airport has high center four wheel drive vehicles.
Once you are on the summit, you are no longer on Indian Reservation. The top of the mesa is owned by the BLM (Bureau of Land Management). It's getting to the top is a little tricky. Please note that at one point you will be crossing over the Southern Ute Reservation. They DO NOT ISSUE crossing permits. You will be trespassing for about 1,200 feet. This is about the 3/4 mark to get to the top. You will actually cross into Colorado at one point.
Once at the summit, you will see the remains of some mining equipment that was left behind. I don't know or would guess as to a "UFO base". But they sure are sensitive as to who is out walking around there. Maybe the Atomic Energy Commission got their way and they did store nuclear waste in the mountain at once point."

I also recommend you to read the article:
MORE BIZARRE HISTORY BEHIND DULCE, NEW MEXICO
www.hometown.aol.com...

I also leave it open the thought that perhaps the Jicarilla Apache Tribe were receiving financial compensation for allowing the dumping of nuclear waste in some other possible artificial caverns near Dulce, aside from Archuleta Mesa. (check out the Project Gasbuggy of 1967 whereby the U.S. Government did conduct an experimental nuclear explosion about 2 miles under an area about 25 miles south of Dulce, with the alleged intention of easing the flow of natural gas in the area).
My thought was that the 'rumors' of underground 'alien' base was intentionally created as a ludicrous 'cover story' (perhaps by the very Jicarilla Apache Tribe) to discredit any public scrutiny into the area.


--------
Norio Hayakawa
www.myspace.com...

Originally posted by johnlear
Paul Bennewitz happened to stumble onto the existence of dulce like I did, but through completely different channels. Your statement was making it sound like you had evidence that Dulce was hoax which it is not. And that has always been my opinion and the opinion of many others.

I think it is better to state that Bennewitz and yourself stumbled onto the story of Dulce rather than the existence as there is no evidence to show that it does exist - and thus, it is only a story.

Bennewitz only thought is was there, like he though the radio transmissions he was receiving were from outer space and not the military base. You say you were given information about Dulce by a Mr X (I fail to see why you can't reveal his name - unless you were never given it!), but it was all circulating around the same time and as far as I can see it all derives from Myrna Hansen's dubious tale as related to Bennewitz and Sprinkle while under hypnosis.

Thanks for your post, Mr. Hayakawa, and interesting links. I really wish I could go there myself and check it out.Though of course, some people claim that if you find the base, you're not likely to return from the experience...rather end up in Nightmare Hall as a vegetable.

Originally posted by torsion

I think it is better to state that Bennewitz and yourself stumbled onto the story of Dulce rather than the existence as there is no evidence to show that it does exist - and thus, it is only a story.

You can't see the underground city at DIA either, but it's there. Neither can you see SMU's, but they're there. Relax torsion, nobody is going to ever prove anything about any of this. At least not in our lifetime.

Bennewitz only thought is was there, like he though the radio transmissions he was receiving were from outer space and not the military base.

I talked to Paul briefly about the radio transmissions when I stayed at his house. I do not know where he ws receiving the transmissions from or how. I assume that when you say "like he thought radio transmissions were from outer space and not the military base," that you have absolute proof of this as you state it as a fact. In fact, I think all you have is Bill Moore's or Doty's word. You continue to state your opinions as fact which I find interesting. Its as if you are trying to convince yourself of your opinions.

You say you were given information about Dulce by a Mr X (I fail to see why you can't reveal his name - unless you were never given it!),

Mr. X was one of the recipients of the 5 boxes by Castello containing the 5 or 6 minutes of video tape of the hallways at Dulce, the 25 or so black and white photographs of the labs at Dulce and the hundred or so pages of text and briefings smuggled out of Dulce. I never got to see the photos or video or actual text. But Mr. X did let me copy his hand drawn pencil drawing of the photos and his handwritten pencil copies of the text. All of which I copied in pen and ink and the text I typed on my IBM Executive (proportional spacing) typewritter.

Mr. X showed me the general area where he hid the box south of Boulder dam but I never saw the box itself.

Mr. X prefers to stay anonymous and I respect his wishes.

but it was all circulating around the same time and as far as I can see it all derives from Myrna Hansen's dubious tale as related to Bennewitz and Sprinkle while under hypnosis.

My opinion is that Myrna Hansen's tale is not dubious but an accurate account of what happened to her.

I respect you opinions, (even when you continue to post them as if they were factual statements), and enjoy responding to your posts.

Originally posted by johnlear
You can't see the underground city at DIA either, but it's there. Neither can you see SMU's, but they're there. Relax torsion, nobody is going to ever prove anything about any of this. At least not in our lifetime.

Don't worry, John. I'm entirely relaxed and I too enjoy these intercontinental discussions!

You could write an endless list of things that haven't been seen but do exist. I've never been to Amercia but I'm pretty sure it exists because of the overwhelming evidence that effectively proves it exists. As far as the underground city at DIA is concerned, you can see it - all you have to do is go there!

But when we come to a tall tale like the Dulce underground alien facility it's entirely different - you can't go there, due to the high probability that it doesn't exist.

When we look at the evidence for its existence we have:

a story derived from hypnotism (therefore having all the credibility of a dream),

a conveniently dead/disappeared Thomas Castello who most likely did not exist,

a box of photographs and video tapes that no one has seen and most likely did not exist,

and some sketches of alien hands and vats with floating foetuses.

So really the only 'tangible' evidence is your drawings, John.

In fact, I think all you have is Bill Moore's or Doty's word. You continue to state your opinions as fact which I find interesting. Its as if you are trying to convince yourself of your opinions.

Come on now, John. The posts would be terrible irritating and over long if we all had to preface each sentence with It is my opinion that... And why would I need to convince myself of my own opinion? I've stated before, I'm always open to having my opinion changed should the information be credible enough - a sketch of a three-fingered hand won't suffice, mind you!

Mr. X showed me the general area where he hid the box south of Boulder dam but I never saw the box itself.

Please explain what would be the point of him doing this? And why, if they existed, would the boxes need to be hidden?

Originally posted by torsion

Please explain what would be the point of him doing this? And why, if they existed, would the boxes need to be hidden?

torsion. Let me respectfully suggest that you find another thread to interest yourself. While I am willing to tell you as much as I know about Dulce I am not willing to spoon feed you. You are going to have to research a little of the Dulce story so that you don't ask questions such as the above which has been asked and answered several billion times..

I can lead you to water but I can't make you drink. But I still enjoy your posts as they bring a smile to my face.

Originally posted by johnlear
You are going to have to research a little of the Dulce story so that you don't ask questions such as the above which has been asked and answered several billion times.

.

John, I was asking you directly because you claimed to have direct contact with the mysterious 'Mr X'. But I can understand your reluctance too answer if you have answered it several billion times already. Maybe you need to rest that typing wrist and go smoke a cigar

I can lead you to water but I can't make you drink. But I still enjoy your posts as they bring a smile to my face.

These waters that you lead people to seem to be very muddy and polluted - entertaining and amusing, for sure, but not suitable for drinking!

Originally posted by torsion

Maybe you need to rest that typing wrist and go smoke a cigar

OK. I wasn't going to mention it but now that you bring it up: I had carpal tunnel operations in both my left and my right wrists about 10 years ago. It is back, in full swing, in my left wrist and I have no insurance and no money for an operation. And medicare doesn't kick in until next December. So typing is getting to be a big pain in the butt.

IThese waters that you lead people to seem to be very muddy and polluted - entertaining and amusing, for sure, but not suitable for drinking!

How about just a sip then?

Well it sure was entertaining to read the debate between Torsion and John Lear in this thread. Interesting how John switches his story and talks about the new Mr. X now, who saw the supposed pictures that Thomas C had escaped the Dulce base with, funny how John also says it is Ann West sometimes.

Originally posted by torsion
I recommend that you read Project Beta by Greg Bishop. It's the definitive study of Paul Bennewitz who is responsible for starting the story of the underground base at Dulce. In order to keep him away from the nearby military base he was encouraged to believe that there really was an alien base and provided with false information by the military.

As with Greg's book much of the information about Paul Bennewitz circulating around the net fails to recount the major events of the actual story. These articles dismiss what Paul said, which is what Doty wanted and why Greg is probably a puppet of the government also. Paul was becoming convinced of an alien base at Dulce in 1978, and in 1979 he established video reception with the base on his computer monitor, actually seeing ETs. This is how big the threat was and why they had to drive him insane. In 1980 Paul did not reach out to the government saying that he thinks there is a Dulce base, he reached out to the government saying There IS a Dulce Base and I have the proof. For the next 10 years this proof was stolen from his house during the disinformation campaign, obviously by Doty.

They want you to believe what you believe