Dept. of Homeland Security: "You'll get a National ID and you'll Like it", page 9
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reply posted on 15-5-2007 @ 12:42 AM by defcon5
Dyepes, First off you’re not showing the whole bill that was passed, its pretty long so here is a link: Real ID Act
Secondly there are parts of this that were conatained in other acts, mainly the patriot act, such as:
Customer Identification Regulations That Apply to Banks, Broker Dealers, Trust Companies, Mutual Funds and Other Financial Institutions
On April 30, 2003, the United States Department of the Treasury, the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network and seven other federal financial services regulatory agencies issued final regulations that require banks, savings associations, broker dealers, trust companies, credit unions, mutual funds, futures commission merchants and futures introducing brokers to adopt written customer identification programs (“CIPs”) that will require these institutions to: (1) verify the identity of any person seeking to open an account; (2) maintain records of the information used to verify identity; and (3) consult government known or suspected terrorist lists to determine whether the customer appears on any such list.

Then we have the Patriot Act part 2, “the return of the freedom snatchers”, which further expounds on what they can do with this ID, example:
Creates a National ID card. After a one-year study period, the Department of Homeland Security will mandate standards for all state driver's licenses, including "biometric ID provisions," which can include your fingerprints, retinal scans, and other biometric identifiers, such as your DNA.
The new high-tech national ID cards will be required for boarding planes, cruise ships, and for driving a car. That means they can be used as Soviet-style internal passports, making anyone deemed "suspect" unable to travel in their own country.

I am not sure of the status of the Patriot Act 2, if it passed or not, or if it is still being voted on. Either way, simply listing the actual text of the REAL ID Act is not showing a true picture of what is going on here.

Looks like Wiki has a good write up on how these laws interact to do exactly the things I listed above:
Real ID Act
The REAL ID Act's implications for driver's licenses and ID-cards is detailed in Title II of the Act. Title II of REAL ID—“Improved Security for Driver’s License’ and Personal Identification Cards”—repeals the provisions of a December 2004 law that established a cooperative state-federal process to create federal standards for driver’s licenses and instead directly imposes prescriptive federal driver’s license standards.

After December 31, 2009, "a Federal agency may not accept, for any official purpose, a driver's license or identification card issued by a state to any person unless the state is meeting the requirements" specified in the Real ID Act. States remain free to also issue non-complying licenses and ID's, so long as these have a unique design and a clear statement that they cannot be accepted for any Federal identification purpose.

In addition, the federal Social Security Administration, (42 U.S.C. § 666(28)), requires the States to maintain a new hire directory. Employers would no longer be able to accept, or ultimately hire, bearers of non-compliant documents for employment.

Also, financial institutions are required to assist the Federal Parent Locator Service, ((42 U.S.C. § 666(17)). Financial institutions would require compliant documents from all customers. Bearers of non-compliant documents would be denied financial or banking services.



[edit on 5/15/2007 by defcon5]


reply posted on 15-5-2007 @ 06:09 PM by defcon5
Originally posted by Odium
Firstly: How do you know it exists to fail?
Thirdly: How do you know a North American Union is going to happen?


I don’t think either of these things has to happen, or is necessarily going to happen, folks are just speculating on how this will end being implanted. As I stated a couple of times above, it never needs to end up being an implanted chip.

Originally posted by Odium
Secondly: How do you know it is all part of the N.W.O. ideology?

There may or may not be a NWO, the “New World Order” may be just a name that we give something, which really has no name, or does not exist in the form which many folks think it does. The whole concept of a "World Order" goes back to the idea that according to Revelations, in order to “cause all people” to receive a mark, a one world government has to be in existence. At the moment there are signs that our government, and the governments of many other countries are not really running things, and exist to only to make folks think they are represented. Its been very obvious that the house and senate has been forced to pass certain bills and laws, which they would not have passed otherwise, since 911. So who is it that really is running things? Folks, especially in the 911 forums, blame it all on the Bush Administration, but it is entirely possible there is a higher group who really call the shots on everything important. Personally I would look at where the money comes from, who controls it, and who each country owes debt to. It could just as easily be a group of the big corporations, and big banks, who are really the ones running everything. Similarly, it might be found out to be a small group of people who are the owners of these banks and corporations. Folks blame a lot of different groups, the masons, the buildburgers, the UN, and many more, but the truth is that whoever is calling the shots is probably much higher and protected by layer upon layer of others who take the blame in their stead.

Originally posted by Odium
You don't think for a moment that such a secret organization would do things so openly and so publically?

Absolutely, and after 911 they seem to be doing so at a faster rate and with little fear that anyone is going to stop or catch them. Think back on what happened in this country between 911 and the Patriot Act passing into law, was there anything that was done quite publicly, which was obviously done to scare our representatives, and then was swept under the carpet? Do you recall the Capital building being evacuated, or the offices of party leaders? Do you recall that the last thing said about that entire incident was that they found the stuff being sent to these folks came from our military? What happened with all of that? Was anyone ever investigated or prosecuted over it? Did it just suddenly fall off the news and was forgotten about? Do you honestly think that, considering presidents have been prosecuted for less in the past (like Nixon), that this was something which was done by an administration? It was obviously done by folks who were so far above the law that there was no touching them.

Originally posted by Odium
Furthermore, why do they care about controlling you with tags? All tehy need to do is put a camera on every street (face recognition and licenece plate) and then you are done for. Furthermore, this would be a lot easier (and probably cheaper) to put into practice.

You cannot track trends with cameras, cameras have to be monitored by someone, and facial recognition does not work that well yet. It is much easier and cheaper to put in place a program that absolutely verifies, 100%, who each person is through Biometric data, then reads that ID constantly. The ID system can be automated very simply, which the camera system cannot be at this point. With the ID system, every time that your verified ID interacts with a scanner, it simply opens a database and makes a write out to it of where it was read at; and if you were doing something with that ID, what it was you were doing. So if you used that ID at your bank, for example, the card scanner at the bank would send out your location, what account you accessed, and what your transaction was to the central database, which it could not do simply by tracking your picture on a camera.

Originally posted by jsobecky
I must have missed this. Where is it written that you won't be able to access your money without one of these cards?

Also, financial institutions are required to assist the Federal Parent Locator Service, ((42 U.S.C. § 666(17)). Financial institutions would require compliant documents from all customers. Bearers of non-compliant documents would be denied financial or banking services.


Customer Identification Regulations That Apply to Banks, Broker Dealers, Trust Companies, Mutual Funds and Other Financial Institutions
On April 30, 2003, the United States Department of the Treasury, the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network and seven other federal financial services regulatory agencies issued final regulations that require banks, savings associations, broker dealers, trust companies, credit unions, mutual funds, futures commission merchants and futures introducing brokers to adopt written customer identification programs (“CIPs”) that will require these institutions to: (1) verify the identity of any person seeking to open an account; (2) maintain records of the information used to verify identity; and (3) consult government known or suspected terrorist lists to determine whether the customer appears on any such list.

Right at the top of the page, first post, and also Shar had it at the bottom of the proceeding page. I guess she beat me to the laws by a few minutes.


reply posted on 15-5-2007 @ 06:31 PM by defcon5
I am putting this in a separate post as it strikes me as being extremely important.

Originally posted by NineSquared
For now, all DHS is going to do is declare "official purpose" to mean what it means according to the statute - federal buildings, airplanes, and nuclear power plants. They're waiting until 2013 before they decide whether to expand that definition. So let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. Cause to worry, but not cause to panic. If you don't like it, lobby your Congresspersons.

Right now they are simply trying to get it in place without the masses getting to wise about what is really going on. There are many more Acts, I am finding since last night, which this relates to. A lot of this has been buried in older acts which have been gradually passed into law over time, and it shows a trend that this has been in the works for a long time before 911. Let me show you:

This is how 42 U.S.C 666 (13) read when it was passed in 1996:
establish procedures requiring that the social security number of any applicant for a professional license, commercial driver's license, recreational license, occupational license, or marriage license be recorded on the application


This is how it read one year later, after congress passed the “Balanced Budget Act of 1997”:
establish procedures requiring that the social security number of any applicant for a professional license, driver's license, recreational license, occupational license, or marriage license be recorded on the application


I hope every one sees the huge difference the removal of one word had on the meaning of the law.

This is a classic example of how they put this into effect, padded somewhat, knowing its controversial, and alter the wording just a tad to change the entire meaning. 42 U.S.C. 666 is all about building a database and tracking everyone’s jobs and income, under the auspices of tracking down folks who did not pay their child support. However, now we are seeing its real use and intent, it was the beginning of building this huge database to track our National ID which they simply reworded a bit, to pad it so we would not catch on, and called it the Real ID. You can bet the same thing will happen once this is in effect, and folks start getting used to using them, words will start dropping out and being added, until they have it exactly the way they originally intended it to be, the National ID.

You can also bet there are thousands of other laws on the books which have been added over the years to require you to show ID to do different things, now those all will apply solely to the Real ID. Anything you cannot do now without a normal state ID, you will be unable to do without the Real ID, plus public access and public travel will be added to the list of things ID is required for.


reply posted on 15-5-2007 @ 06:42 PM by defcon5
Originally posted by DYepes
Excuse us Shar and defcon 5, but that is not part of the Real ID act, it is part of the patriot act. Do not start crossing the two in order to reach an agenda to strikle fear into everyone. The requirements for this section of the Patriot Act can easily be applied without the Real ID act.

Yeah, and it’s the combination of these laws which makes this ID dangerous. When they are combined it causes the Real ID to be able to fit the criteria of stopping folks from living without receiving them. Also it has provisions for enforcement in other countries. The Real ID Act simply states what the creation of the ID is supposed to entail, what it is supposed to contain, and when it has to be enacted. Much of the more dangerous stuff was put into other laws for use with the National ID, which they claim this is not (even though it really is), and will be applied just the same to this ID.

Folks did not want a National ID, so the lawyers up there in the Congress are passing the exact same thing under a different name, spread out across multiple bills to keep its true intended purpose hidden until after it is in effect. The fact they are having to hide this in all these laws should be a warning flag to everyone all by itself.

By applying these other laws, which are in effect, you get EXACTLY the picture I painted for you above.

And no, the provisions of the Patriot act cannot be enforced without a machine readable ID containing biometric data, which is linked into a single database, and shared with other countries.


reply posted on 16-5-2007 @ 05:56 AM by jsobecky
Oriiginally posted by defcon5
Right at the top of the page, first post, and also Shar had it at the bottom of the proceeding page. I guess she beat me to the laws by a few minutes.

Sorry, but I still don't see it. There are requirements for new customers to provide some ID before opening a new account, but it does not have to be a National ID card. Also, existing customers are exempt from the requirement:

Covered Customers
Under the final regulations, identification must be verified for:
individuals that are new customers of the institution;
legal entities that are new customers of the institution;
each person named on a joint account; and
the deposit broker (not each subaccount) in the case of brokered deposits.
Under the final regulations, financial institutions do not have to verify identity for:
an existing customer;
another financial institution regulated in the United States; or
signatories on a corporate account.

Covered Accounts
The institution must verify identity for customers that want to open a new “account.” An “account” broadly means a “formal relationship” with a bank or broker dealer to conduct banking business or effect securities transactions, such as:
a deposit account;
a credit or loan account;
a securities account;
a cash management account; and
a safety deposit box service.
An “account” does not include services or products that lack a “formal relationship”:
check-cashing;
wire transfers;
money order or certified check sales; and
accounts acquired from a merger or acquisition.

www.gtlaw.com...


Plus, this deals with the Patriot Act, not the RealID Act. It is a measure designed to stop money laundering.


reply posted on 16-5-2007 @ 04:31 PM by defcon5
Originally posted by jsobecky
Sorry, but I still don't see it. There are requirements for new customers to provide some ID before opening a new account, but it does not have to be a National ID card. Also, existing customers are exempt from the requirement:


I don’t know about how your bank works, but I am already required to show a State ID whenever I go to the counter to make a transaction. I am sure that I had to show many ID’s to open the account to begin with, though that was so long ago, and I doubt any of these current laws were in effect back then. The only reason I am OK with using a State ID is because it does not contain Biometric data, and it is not in a Federal Database which will be accessible to other countries, thus making it a world wide system. Once it crosses those two lines, then to me it becomes something that is unacceptable for me to receive, based on my religious beliefs.

Additionally, as I stated above, this 42 USC 666 (17) was part of a “deadbeat dads” law which was enacted in 1996 and modified in 1997, not part of the patriot act. So these laws are all over the place and not in one single act. However the Real ID Act will bind them all together by stipulating what the federal government considers to be valid documentation on identification.

Originally posted by jsobecky
Plus, this deals with the Patriot Act, not the RealID Act. It is a measure designed to stop money laundering.

Again, the REAL ID Act is the part which ties all these other separate laws together in one style of compliant document, but the Real ID Act does not contain all the laws to which it applies within the wording of the act. I believe that I have already explained that above. So regardless of how many acts it encompasses I still will not be able to do the things listed above unless I submit to a National ID containing Biometric data, now will I?


reply posted on 16-5-2007 @ 05:51 PM by jsobecky
Originally posted by defcon5
I don’t know about how your bank works, but I am already required to show a State ID whenever I go to the counter to make a transaction. I am sure that I had to show many ID’s to open the account to begin with, though that was so long ago, and I doubt any of these current laws were in effect back then.

All financial institutions require ID when opening an account. Nothing has changed there.

The only reason I am OK with using a State ID is because it does not contain Biometric data, and it is not in a Federal Database which will be accessible to other countries, thus making it a world wide system. Once it crosses those two lines, then to me it becomes something that is unacceptable for me to receive, based on my religious beliefs.

Having a piece of ID that contains biometric data and is accessible by another country violates your religious beliefs? Really? I find that incredulous.


Again, the REAL ID Act is the part which ties all these other separate laws together in one style of compliant document, but the Real ID Act does not contain all the laws to which it applies within the wording of the act. I believe that I have already explained that above. So regardless of how many acts it encompasses I still will not be able to do the things listed above unless I submit to a National ID containing Biometric data, now will I?

The REAL ID Act specifies what documentation is valid for federal transactions. It does not, as you imply, mandate the format of what a state finds acceptable. It does not "tie all those separate laws together".


reply posted on 16-5-2007 @ 06:25 PM by defcon5
Originally posted by jsobecky
Having a piece of ID that contains biometric data and is accessible by another country violates your religious beliefs? Really? I find that incredulous.

Not really, go read some of my posts above, and in other threads on the topic of the “mark of the beast”, and you’ll understand where I am coming from, even if you don’t have the exact same beliefs.

Originally posted by jsobecky
The REAL ID Act specifies what documentation is valid for federal transactions. It does not, as you imply, mandate the format of what a state finds acceptable. It does not "tie all those separate laws together".

Sure it does, that is the whole point, the states either comply, or they find themselves unable to receive federal funding and support. The fact this is being rammed down all of our throats, as it is, should be another warning sign to folks as to its true intention. If it was really a harmless piece of legislation, then they would not be using the type of threatening language they have been to enforce it.

Originally posted by jsobecky
All financial institutions require ID when opening an account. Nothing has changed there.

Up to this point it has been entirely possible to live without a drivers license, folks do it all the time. They either are too old to drive, have lost it from some infraction, are not old enough to have one, and so on. These folks have had no problem living. However can you say its going to be the same way after May 2008-Jan 2009? No you cannot, as it absolutely will not be the same. Everyone will be required to have one of these, from a child to an elderly person, and it makes no difference if they are a driver or not. You must have one, or you cannot interact with the Federal Government. You cannot pay taxes, pay or receive Social Security, retain a Job, interact with a bank, pay your bills, drive a car, utilize public transportation, and so on. How can you say this is the same system we have in place right now, it is obviously not the case. The state can still issue ID, but it will not be accepted by anyone, especially employers and banks.



[edit on 5/16/2007 by defcon5]


reply posted on 16-5-2007 @ 10:18 PM by DYepes
Up to this point it has been entirely possible to live without a drivers license, folks do it all the time. They either are too old to drive, have lost it from some infraction, are not old enough to have one, and so on. These folks have had no problem living. However can you say its going to be the same way after May 2008-Jan 2009? No you cannot, as it absolutely will not be the same. Everyone will be required to have one of these, from a child to an elderly person, and it makes no difference if they are a driver or not. You must have one, or you cannot interact with the Federal Government. You cannot pay taxes, pay or receive Social Security, retain a Job, interact with a bank, pay your bills, drive a car, utilize public transportation, and so on. How can you say this is the same system we have in place right now, it is obviously not the case.


There is nothing in here that says you need to show your id in order to purchase anything, in which sales tax (to the state) is probably the only tax anyone here pays without having already proven their identity. How do you think you pay your income tax, or property tax? If you were hired by an employer who takes your income tax out of your paycheck, you already have to have proved your identity to them. I dare you to find people who have not had to submit some form of identification to pay or recieve social Security, regardless of if they submitted bogus info. Give me an example of a person that collects SS without having submitted documentation to get it.


In order to interact with a bank, they have to verify your identity. There are no provisions here that say all cash paying jobs must now be verified their identity. Show me where it says that public transportation requires you to identify who you are.


The state can still issue ID, but it will not be accepted by anyone, especially employers and banks.

Today and the days before the Real ID act, States have all had Federal standards to which they must have created their forms of identification, not just a driver's license. The Real ID Act only updates the standards to which they must create their new forms of identification, it does not mandate them to create a Federal Identification card which has no credence to the state. Your new license will still say State of Florida, Texas, California, Wyoming or New York. It will simply be designed to a new set of standards. Any form of identification you are required to submit will still be a State issued identification.

What you are doing is listing what already is, and then lumping your fears of what is not and is not written to be together to strike baseless fear into people. I politely and formally request you to stop trying to scare people.

The new standards will eventually be enacted, and if you refuse, noone is going to lock you up. Noone is going to behead you, come after you, torture your family or convert you. You will simply be denied services that require a formal form of identification, just as if someone were to do this today.

If we stopped all advances and modernization because some people were afraid of the change they have never experiences, I believe we would still be living in caves, wooden huts, or open fields.


reply posted on 16-5-2007 @ 10:55 PM by defcon5
Originally posted by DYepes
There is nothing in here that says you need to show your id in order to purchase anything, in which sales tax (to the state) is probably the only tax anyone here pays without having already proven their identity. How do you think you pay your income tax, or property tax?

You guys are being too short sighted on this, IMHO. Yeah I have had to present ID’s in the past to verify employment, but not a National ID.

Originally posted by DYepes
Give me an example of a person that collects SS without having submitted documentation to get it.

Contractors of all types do this on a regular basis.

Originally posted by DYepes
Show me where it says that public transportation requires you to identify who you are.

We have already shown above where it will restrict air travel, ship travel, your ability to drive a car, and there was an incident in the last year where a woman was accosted for refusing to show ID on a bus.

Originally posted by DYepes
It will simply be designed to a new set of standards. Any form of identification you are required to submit will still be a State issued identification.

Will it, or will it not require my biometric data in a machine readable format, and be stored on a Federal Database?

Originally posted by DYepes
What you are doing is listing what already is, and then lumping your fears of what is not and is not written to be together to strike baseless fear into people. I politely and formally request you to stop trying to scare people.

I have spoken to a bunch of the folks here in the DMV here in Tampa and Brandon, and they are all psyched up about getting this ID because it will be less work for them. Similarly, all my Law enforcement friends are all for this as they can arrest folks more efficiently, and they can track everything without having to do any real detective work. I am just curious if you work for either of these two groups as I see the same arguments coming from you as them.

Again, yes, some of this stuff already existed, but it was not connected with a national database which is to be useable by other nations, and it did not contain biometric data. Is this correct or not?

Beside this why should I stop “scaring” people when it scares me personally. Who are you to restrict my freedom of speech? Oh…. Must be a law enforcement officer, if not then you certainly sound like one. Seems that all the guys I know in that field don’t seem to feel that us non-LEO’s are not entitled to any rights anyway, while they get all kinds of special privilege. Their attidute seem to be the same as yours, and the title of the thread, “You’ll get one, you’ll like it, now shut up and do as your told!”

Originally posted by DYepes
The new standards will eventually be enacted, and if you refuse, noone is going to lock you up. Noone is going to behead you, come after you, torture your family or convert you.

Hm, seems to me that the DHS has said on multiple occasions that refusal to receive their ID meant the person became non-existent to the Federal Government, which means you have the same rights as an illegal alien in your own country.

Originally posted by DYepes
If we stopped all advances and modernization because some people were afraid of the change they have never experiences, I believe we would still be living in caves, wooden huts, or open fields.

I am not telling anyone not to build the better mouse trap, I am simply saying I don’t wish to be tracked, as I am not a criminal I don’t feel I need to surrender my finger prints, DNA, or Retina Scan, and I believe that Federal Powers should be going back to the States, thus the people, and not the other way around.
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