The worrying thing about National ID's is not such things as boarding planes, but the "off-brand" uses of the ID, eg, in our increasingly cashless society, banks would be the first to adopt the use of the NID. Want to open an account? Cash a check? do anything at all with your money? Need an NID...

How about online? Verify your identity when making credit card purchases - PUT IN YOUR NID#..

etc, etc..

Get a drink in a bar? Must have your NID - remember, even appearing to be old enough to drink does not mean you can GET one, even if you're 100 years old, and your server asks you for ID, if you can't provide it, even today, the server is legally not allowed to sell you alcohol. It is not enough to be over 21, you must have ID that proves you are, and that's just today..

Everything and anything you do can be tied to a unique ID number - admittedly that's already possible with the SSN, but that's not a valid form of ID, and doesn't link your picture, thumbprint or anything other than your name to your #..

Of course, as a legal alien, I'm already in the federal system, image, prints, name, medical details, etc.. but even that isn't as much of an invasion of privacy as this, because that's something I chose, and my "greencard", beyond being something I legally have to carry, doesn't really get used unless I'm travelling outside the country - when I go home to the UK, it's actually a blessing, because a UK passport and a US greencard gets you through the system at both ends of the trip far faster than anyone else.. no massive lines usually, just a special one for legal residents of either country..

My greencard is sort of a standalone entity in other words, just something that I have, but rarely have to use for any purpose beyond travel, or very rarely proving that I am legal to work in the US (not many companies ask for proof other than a SSN, but I have had to fill in the A# a couple of times)..

a NID, though, I see as something all pervasive, necessary to life itself..

Originally posted by Unrealised
I don't know about the U.S or any of it's States' licences, but here in Australia we have Holographic licences, in New South Wales anyway.

You can't fake that.

Thats the thing. The majority of states do have holographic licenses, as well as magnetic strips or barcodes on them.

Which is why this federal plan smells like fascist BS.

I'm not sure what all the fuss is about since we've had mandated national ID cards for a good 25 years. They're your social security number, and everyone has to have one.

So far, it hasn't been used to take over anything.

How is a national drivers' license (which will be an amusing headache to administer for the government) going to be any different than a SSN? If anything, it's less effective since it doesn't apparently apply to children or infants. However, children and infants DO need a SSN.

Or hadn't you guys noticed?

I would like to say as a Canadian that lives on the boarder with a nice bridge to the USA...
I don't go anymore.
Nor will I go in the future.

The red tape is way too much.
not worth the effort, not worth the effort.

Originally posted by Byrd
I'm not sure what all the fuss is about since we've had mandated national ID cards for a good 25 years. They're your social security number, and everyone has to have one.

Byrd the big deal is that the SSN is not a distance traceable tracking device, It does not contain your finger prints nor retina scans, and it was not uniform across different countries. The currently existing laws work, yet are not enforced, so why should we submit to this invasion of privacy.

This is nothing more then an additional power grab by the federals to remove what is left of state powers. We all should realize that the current system of a strong federal government was not the intentions of our founding fathers. It was their intentions to have the strength be at the local state level where the citizens had control over their laws and rights. The feds have been snatching power from the states for years, and now even want to take ability to issue ID’s from them. The worst part is that the Fed’s don’t really care for the citizenry as much as corporate interests. This is why we only see them get involved and show face when there is a huge public outcry about something. The New Orleans debacle is a prime example of how the fed’s take care of the citizens.

You know, technically a single national drivers license is something the Constitution sort
of says has to exist.

That being the part that says that the states shall give full faith and credibility in the
documentation of all other states.

Just become an illegal immigrant, they can get credit card, driver's licenses and home loans. If you get a pesky criminal record just change your name and become a new illegal immigrant. Haven't you heard? We are outsourcing our rights to foreigners.

Byrd, as a moderator, I'm sure you've heard a long list of 'reasons' for the mentality of those who oppose more government regs.

Each new regulation and law, in and of itself, seems a reasonable act. That is the nature of a phenomenon I call "Law Creep".

Each new law, justifiable in it's own right as meritorious, it is laid upon the proceeding law. And each new/old law has just enough 'overlap' into those areas referred to as "gray", that an eventual fence is erected, secretly, that reduces the overall freedoms of American citizens. A careful look at this 'creep' effect will be enlightening.

Upon reflection, I feel sure that you will see that the overall outcome of more and more laws, adding to the complexity of the judicial structure, is only beneficial to the governing bodies and to that class of sub humans who practice law. It is the common citizen who most always pays the price.

And lastly, what right has the government, or any corporation or other body, have to track my movements without my consent? And telling me that this is already in practice, is but to state that those who use these things are in violation of the basic right to privacy that free humans ought to have. Even the Christian 'God' bothered to ask Adam his where-abouts.

You know, I've heard alot about this topic for a long long time now. Of course, we all have. And now I see people getting anxious and angry..saying things like, "why don't you people see" etc. etc .etc. My question is...what would you have us do? Go back to the stone age? This sort of identification technology has always been in the works and has always been predicted in all manner of ways. I agree. I think it could be a great thing and the right hands and a horrible weapon in the wrong ones. But short of some massive revolution how would it be stopped?

Wicked

Originally posted by defcon5




This is nothing more then an additional power grab by the federals to remove what is left of state powers. We all should realize that the current system of a strong federal government was not the intentions of our founding fathers. It was their intentions to have the strength be at the local state level where the citizens had control over their laws and rights. The feds have been snatching power from the states for years, and now even want to take ability to issue ID’s from them. The worst part is that the Fed’s don’t really care for the citizenry as much as corporate interests. This is why we only see them get involved and show face when there is a huge public outcry about something. The New Orleans debacle is a prime example of how the fed’s take care of the citizens.

How come i cant give out WATS votes anymore? I didnt even use my three for this month. Anyways i woulda given you one if that counts.

This is starting to get ridiculous...

NGC2736, i dont think that person thinks there are any conspiracy's at least not to my knowledge which is fine but a little odd to me.

national idea is unnecessary.

i would like someone to tell me what the benefits are and why?

look anyone can see that the elite's like to soften up the populace before
they manipulate the freedoms, it will either be a false-flag attack, or after the economy is in a deep recession that the PTB take advantage of the vulnerable populace, this is not something that will just be enacted without some prior hardship.

it is how "they roll"

and oh btw stop thinking politicians are "loyal" to a particular country's citizens, most look at citizens as stupid and ignorant who can't think for themselves and need to be told what to beleive. they are more loyal to there multi-national groups like the CFR and the Royal institue of Int. affairs with there sub groups like bilderberg and trilateral + institute of pacific relations, this group of 3000 plus with many dual members of these overlapping groups of people are placed in high positions in regards 2 a nations politicians, head bankers, owners of media, head judicial judges, militiary, heads of energy companies throughout the world u get the point

the CFR is more powerful than the government because the CFR is the gov't and it is the media, and it has members well placed in postitions of influence and power. these multinational societys will continue to rob and lie and steal in a sort like it is "just doing business".

so who do you think is behind a national id act and why do you think people are skeptical of it's intentions.

wicked star you are right but they are afraid that we have all these guns, maybe they need to frame some patriot organization for shootng up some place





[edit on 11-5-2007 by cpdaman]

Hey everyone!
Thanks for the replies, I am glad you all felt it was a good submission. As for it being an "illegal" thing, I'll tell you why I dont think this is so.

I am a Sales Manager at a car dealership. I see about 5 people PER DAY who are here either illegally or without permission (haven't renewed their visa).

They have no SS#, no state ID, nothing. They don't really "Exist". But guess what they DO have? BANK ACCOUNTS! Plus, a LOT (70%) of the banks we use to finance them WILL TAKE SOMEONE WITH NO SOCIAL. I hate doing them because they're more paperwork, but I have. They're usually mexican immigrants, work very hard, and carry $3000-$4000 cash on them at any given time.

Now, with all of these people coming in DROVES to the US, opening bank accounts and getting jobs, how will this affect them? It really won't. DO they ever get on planes or go into federal buildings? HELL NO, they stay far away from those places. There's immigration at the AIRPORTS! And they avoid government buildings LIKE THE PLAGUE!

So I really am mixed on the topic. Would it be easier to keep track of people? SURE. I personally am of the old school of thought "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". But hey, that's why I am in sales and not politics.

PS- A trick I just learned (I was told by an illegal at my dealership) is this: Mexican women who are illegals come at 8 months pregnant, ready to pop, illegally into the states. They have their baby in an American hospital(for free). They are immediately a US citizen(they know they won't get sent back if their baby is a US citizen, who will stay with the baby?). If it's a girl, guess what? They name the baby THEIR EXACT same name. Why? Because now they get a social security card with their name. They use it and it's GOOD AS GOLD. Pretty screwed up huh?

I actually got this reply off of DIGG and thought it would be important to post as it gives very good points.


This Act, like so may others, is touted as serving the interest of the security of the people. The truth is it wouldn't provide one ounce of practical security to most everyone. Real terrorists won't need to have this ID. Even if that means they cannot board a plane, enter a federal building, or open a bank account, they can still do at least 1000 other things to incite terror. Think about it.

So, if it doesn't prevent terrorism, and it doesn't even apply to terrorists--that means it applies to hard working people and good citizens. Now why in the world would you need to put a leash on good citizens when it comes to opening bank accounts (buying and selling) or flying on a plane?

Answer: Pervasive control acquired through the implied threat to citizens of what could happen to them if they start speaking out. Think that's a stretch? A college professor was recently placed on the no-fly list simply for speaking out against the Bush Administration.

Please, for the love of the country, wake up.

I will NOT accept an RFID chip in my body or anything I have. If I find it is in an item I have: I will tear it out. Problem is, if they make it so you cannot buy food without this chip, then 80% and up of the USA is ROYALY screwed. Still, the chip emits waves, so if you smash it, and it shows it is no longer active when the mother computers run a system scan... Feds on your door within the hour, or a phone call informing you of this and to come in and replace it ASAP.


Someone explain this "Holographic liscence." I have not heard of that term, ever.

If it aint broke... Well I have to agree, and the system is broke, and instead of fixing it, they just place more C4 and TNT and blow new holes. The more chaos the more power they will claim they need to "protect the citizens" when they are actually thinking the following: "We need to protect ourselves from the citizens."
I am waiting on someplace to "blow up" and them blame it on "gun nuts" then promptly ban all weapons short of hunting rifles.
Not much we can do anymore though huh? One thing is a fact though: the current generations are going to forever effect the future of this nation and the world. Ironic huh? To think that you will have earthshaking concequences pending on what you do... Only fantasy books talk about it, but that is reality. We survivors of 2007 will be the ones to make the changes, or get to see the whole world burnt to ashes and THE most imperialist, fascist, and evil power take over once and for all.
So in the end it comes to this: Rather than fight with each other, in short: USA citizens vs. Mexican, how about we BOTH acknowledge the corporations and elite screwed us over, goverment too, and that we need to work together to stop them? We have a common enemy, and a common ground if only people would look for it. Do Mexicans truely NOT want freedom of speech? NOT want freedom of religion? I challange anyone to prove me wrong. I will give you a WATS if you do. However it must be SOUND proof that others on ATS can critique and prove to be true as well.
One thing that is a fact is this: Do not be scared, be brave but not foolish, keep your eyes open no matter how much it hurts. Keep thinking no matter how much pain you endure. Keep moving no matter how many times you are struck, stand up when you are struck down. Be the phoenix, rise from the ashes again, and again, and again. Never give up nor give in.


The creeping is stepping up bit by bit, the hourglass is running dry.

Since the invention of the credit card, we've had a way of "being" tracked. I've had a governement issued ID with a chip in it since 1997. It's only use then was to go to the gym and the base would get stats on gym useage. The new government ID cards the have the RFID chips in them carry some pretty good features. They can contain your medical history, PKI certificates to allow you access to networks, and certificates that allow you access to government locations. I just don't see why people are so paranoid. Maybe it's because I've worked in the Intelligence community or that I've never really been bothered by it. In my opinion, the only people who should be worried about a national ID is the ones that have reasons to worry about (i.e Illegal activities).Now all they need is some biometrics on it.

-Aza

Originally posted by Vekar
Still, the chip emits waves, so if you smash it, and it shows it is no longer active when the mother computers run a system scan...

An RFID chip does not emit waves constantly, the onyl times it can be activated is within
very close proximity to an RFID reader.

An RFID chip does not have an internal power source, or a transmitter strong enough to
broadcast beyond a few feet, so the only way that any system that would scan for it would
know it's inactive, is if you brought it within the proximity of a scanner with an internet
connection to the mothersystem.

i swear once i read or saw something bout rfid technology being able to be tracked with cell phone towers, to my knowledge you have to place the scanner pretty close to the skin or if its on a card i assume u would wave it in front of a reader. i have had no luck finding anything on the net....anyone know?

every freaking where i look in dallas there are (what i call pineapples) cell phone towers, if it was possible to use them to track people . Also to consider the executive orders that allow the seizure and use of all telecom the gov could easily use the wireless companies nationwide coverage to tag maybe not everyone but "terrorists".


9/11 was a shock, the patriot act (1 & 2)was wrong, this stuff straight scares the hell out of me.

papers please.

It would not prevent, but it is a first step in the direction they want this to go in. Look how all things happen, with a small step at first, then it strides forward.

This whole ID concept is just to get people in a stage where it is normal. Then later on something else can occur where it gets bumbed up and has more. Say for example, the ID isn't working and the feel chipping all new borns would be a sfer way to. Say this example will be implimemnted by 2020.

First phase of any government control, is by conditioning the masses.

watchful 1 good question we need more people asking good questions here

like i said this will be implemented when the citizens are vulnerable and facing some kind of hardship

thus in these states which people can't really duplicate now (thus answer the question of wether they will accept a chip accuratly) they may find themself between a rock in a hard place IMO

i think its time to temporarilly move out of the USA because the quality of life here will be taking a dive IMO the economy or false flag will be the first domino

this will be felt with in 2 years

[edit on 11-5-2007 by cpdaman]