Dept. of Homeland Security: "You'll get a National ID and you'll Like it"

But you can have "free speach zones" maybe, to protest the tyranny! Think for youselves and see the "Nero" potential in any leaders given Way too much control! That's why our Declaration of Independance and our constitution were written. To keep Dictatorial Caesars off the necks of you and I. To love yourself and material possesions above God (who actually loves us) and others is a retched existance.

In the states which enacted legislation against this, will banks pull out of the state? Or will some state banks hang around and just lose the federal insurance on the accounts?

Originally posted by Diplomat
I don't understand how you people talk about this secret NWO government like it is just fact and common knowledge or something. The Department of Homeland Security wants to have national ID cards, so you guys then automatically assume it is some secret world government that is really behind the idea?

There isn't even any real proof of an NWO or an Illuminati or whatever you guys want to call it. The only people who will tell you there is proof are conspiracy theorists. Do you really believe that if there was enough proof and evidence of these "secret governments" that millions of non-conspiracy theorists wouldn't also be outraged and talking about it?

Any time someone is asked to officialy PROVE that there is some kind of secret shadow government that is "really pulling the strings," they never can. And I don't mean give your little theories backed up by a few weblinks to conspiracy-related websites. I'm talking 100% proof. Like who makes up these governments? If they are real where are the member lists? What are the names and positions of every single person in these governments?

There is no such thing, you guys are just paranoid...

[edit on 11-5-2007 by Diplomat]

I pretty much agree with your opinion on the topic at hand, but I think you're dismissing the "NWO" notion a bit too quickly. While I think the evidence for a world-spanning authoritarian kleptocracy is a bit thin, I do think that there exists certain groups and institutions that hold immense power mainly due to wealth and connections rather than a public delegation of authority. I don't know how well coordinated or cooperative they are, and I think this is where theories about world conspiracies generally stretch too far for the facts. The people and groups I'm talking about are varied, ranging from immensely wealthy capitalists to professional bureaucrats to very old family bloodlines. I unfortunately don't know of any comprehensive studies about international and potentially transnational ruling factions, but a good place to start on the issue of nondemocratic, subversive, and clandestine people is to look at Carroll Quigley's work on the Anglo-American Establishment and on information about the Foundations (Ford, Carnegie, Rockefeller), like stuff about the Reece Committee.

[edit on 5-9-2007 by Luap]

reply to post by bestideayet


so, what will happen to the people who refuse to obtain the national id, besides being able to enter federal buildings and boarding airplanes.????

awesome idea

this will help keep the riff raff out, and the illegals, and the crooks

I pay taxes, and obey the law.

oh, and there are these things called a phone book and a drivers license. There it's lots of info on those suckers, and they already exist

i have 3 passports issued in diffrent coutries by my national embacy,
2 national id cards for 2 diffrent countries
1 drivers licence that should technicly work all over the world

it dosent bother me a bit.

seams you guys have diffrent issues all together



RFID :
good / bad who knows , its been around since the 60´s ,
its nothing fancy "technology wise" in my opinion.
its good for tagging boxes , clothes, recipts, parcels and yes some have even put a tagg in em self,

i see nothing wrong with rfid tagging its a good method of " checking " so to say an object ,

the tags we work with are nothing more the strings of numbers that match a sertain value in our db that gives a sertain readout,

in theory you your self can check the value on the chip and make assumtions then later if the data corresponds with it in the db

eq :

9.95
100037798 F10000119 E2038888
Valid licens
Red
.03"
child molester
Medium
Oregon
etc
etc

the dilemma i have is to how to implement this technology in to our society without it becoming a stress factor for its surroundings,

eq.

can i put a tag on a car for taxation purpouses without it becoming bottleneck effect and just gauge up the system ?

can i wash the tags or will they clogg up the dishwasher and consume time from priority matters

etc etc

rfid is just what you make of it

if you dont trust your goverment and rfid then I suggest to you that you suggest to your goverment open source for the chip read out values , you your self can then check your passport or id card that it dosent promt anything besides the obvius that should be there.

simple as that. its nothing high tech ( true false if )


ID CARD

what have you to to hide ?,

and its nothing nazi germany about having a national id card ,
ive had one since i was born , now i have 2 official national id cards and now that i think of it i have more govermental id cards
( social security card , library card etc etc etc )

in theory we are all tagged from birth with a number that veritifyes us to our goverment and in return our goverment can grant us the benefits that our tax money has payed for , school , health care , socialwellfare etc etc etc

having a number eases up Official matters like banking, insurance and
even national security depending on how low you are willing to go as to what you classify as a national security ,

eq.

the fact that my neigbour dosent have a smoke alarm in his house ?
or
this fellow is trying to apply for a driverslicens/
loan/socialwelfare/firearm/ the fith time but cannot verify his/hers id ?
or
the fact that my neigbour dosent want his children to take hepatitis b vaccine ?


in my country we have something calld if translated : civil defence

its more or less " manditory common knowlege in life "

but back to the subject of id cards ,

are you not who you say you are ?





IMMIGRATION


now heres a hot potatoe for a country that is based on immigration be it legal or not , ^^

anyways here is what the rest of the world thinks of that subject more or less


refuge : someone who seeks refuge in an other political state/goverment because of opression in varius forms in its former country

immigrant: someone who has the legal documents for his move to a specific country

illegal immigrant : someone who dosent have the legal documents for his move to a specific country

tourist : someone with a visa/visum for his stay

workers premit/ visa / visum : in your case a greencard

basicy a nut shell ,


everyone can apply, its called controled democracy

if ppl cant abeid with the simple laws and systems made then i see no point in granting visa/premit/immigration , can almost swear that this is universal..


might have become a rant but i see no point in blaming rfid when its not even a new fearmongering technology for a countries illegal immigrant problem.

UPDATE:

In 2006, Congress approved $40 million to help offset state costs for REAL ID, and more funding is up for a vote this year. So far, $7 million has been allocated to a pilot project in Kentucky that electronically verifies vital records.

Williams said he is working with OMB "to detach release of funding to release of the bill." He said if that happens, he expects states would have access to funds before Christmas. He did caution that there are groups lobbying Congress to remove the $50 million for REAL ID now attached to a military operations appropriations bill.

www.govexec.com...

You guys.......just let it happen.

Originally posted by Diplomat

There isn't even any real proof of an NWO or an Illuminati or whatever you guys want to call it. The only people who will tell you there is proof are conspiracy theorists. Do you really believe that if there was enough proof and evidence of these "secret governments" that millions of non-conspiracy theorists wouldn't also be outraged and talking about it?

Any time someone is asked to officialy PROVE that there is some kind of secret shadow government that is "really pulling the strings," they never can. And I don't mean give your little theories backed up by a few weblinks to conspiracy-related websites. I'm talking 100% proof. Like who makes up these governments? If they are real where are the member lists? What are the names and positions of every single person in these governments?

There is no such thing, you guys are just paranoid...

Pretty much everything you said there is the regular anti-conspiracy fodder. We know all of it. We can't 'prove' anything to people who aren't willing to do critical thinking or personal research. That's the simplest way I can explain it to skeptics nowadays. In other words : don't bother asking for people to prove what you refuse to examine.

Originally posted by Luap

Originally posted by Diplomat
I don't understand how you people talk about this secret NWO government like it is just fact and common knowledge or something. The Department of Homeland Security wants to have national ID cards, so you guys then automatically assume it is some secret world government that is really behind the idea?

There isn't even any real proof of an NWO or an Illuminati or whatever you guys want to call it. The only people who will tell you there is proof are conspiracy theorists. Do you really believe that if there was enough proof and evidence of these "secret governments" that millions of non-conspiracy theorists wouldn't also be outraged and talking about it?

Any time someone is asked to officialy PROVE that there is some kind of secret shadow government that is "really pulling the strings," they never can. And I don't mean give your little theories backed up by a few weblinks to conspiracy-related websites. I'm talking 100% proof. Like who makes up these governments? If they are real where are the member lists? What are the names and positions of every single person in these governments?

There is no such thing, you guys are just paranoid...

[edit on 11-5-2007 by Diplomat]

I pretty much agree with your opinion on the topic at hand, but I think you're dismissing the "NWO" notion a bit too quickly. While I think the evidence for a world-spanning authoritarian kleptocracy is a bit thin, I do think that there exists certain groups and institutions that hold immense power mainly due to wealth and connections rather than a public delegation of authority. I don't know how well coordinated or cooperative they are, and I think this is where theories about world conspiracies generally stretch too far for the facts. The people and groups I'm talking about are varied, ranging from immensely wealthy capitalists to professional bureaucrats to very old family bloodlines. I unfortunately don't know of any comprehensive studies about international and potentially transnational ruling factions, but a good place to start on the issue of nondemocratic, subversive, and clandestine people is to look at Carroll Quigley's work on the Anglo-American Establishment and on information about the Foundations (Ford, Carnegie, Rockefeller), like stuff about the Reece Committee.

[edit on 5-9-2007 by Luap]

Alhough im not going to say theres no mean, power hungry people in the world, the "NWO" seems like a but of a stretch. There just to many people involved, for these theories (really hypotheses) to be true whod have to say there is not one good willed individual to expose them. the NWO theories almost make sense superficially, but seem to fall apart at a deeper level. I think we all are just a little paranoid, and like to believe in something bigger than ourselves. As i write this it reminds me of what the Nazis did to the Jewish population. They blamed them for all of Germany's woes, and the NWO does the same thing for us. Everytime something we dont like happens, its the dark and shadowy NWO. To me the physcology behind conspiracy theories is almost more interesting that the theories themselves.

Originally posted by Byrd
I'm not sure what all the fuss is about since we've had mandated national ID cards for a good 25 years. They're your social security number, and everyone has to have one.

So far, it hasn't been used to take over anything.

How is a national drivers' license (which will be an amusing headache to administer for the government) going to be any different than a SSN? If anything, it's less effective since it doesn't apparently apply to children or infants. However, children and infants DO need a SSN.

Or hadn't you guys noticed?

Actually this is incorrect.

There is no law requiring you to have a social security number. To most folks thats shocking but its true. And you cant be denied employment because of it either.

Call up any SSN office and ask them, there is no law mandating a SSN for you

My license doesn't expire until 2017 so by then the world will have gone to heck, but at least I can try to buy as much time as I can by arguing that my license is still "valid" lol!

This doesnt bother me in the least.

Lets see.

I have:

*A Social Security card
*A Driver's License
*A Military ID
*A Military Passport
*and a regular Passport


Yeah, one more certainly doesnt bother me at all!

Most states have filed suit over the ID. The government can take the REAL ID and stick it up their candy you know what.

For those that think this is a "good" idea

The way I see it is, I already have a drivers license, I have bank statements, certificate of birth, heck even a SSN, I also have a library card, and a couple of student cards from when I went to college.

Does the govt. seriously not trust that I am who I say I am with all that??? they seriously need MORE information??? This won't curb I.D. theft or illegal immigration, it will make it WORSE! If I remember correctly, these cards are said to have ALL your information! everything, your medical records, where you live, what's your phone # etc. etc. etc. What they're really doing is making the I.D. thieves jobs easier! both for the I.D. hackers and the illegal immigrants using fake I.D's they'll have a whole background history, already built in!

Originally posted by Where2Hide2006
This national ID is planned to fail, in order to bring about the only solution remaining...the Verichip. This is just the next step in the planned chipping every us citizen.

actually, verichip is just a brand name product. RFID is the real culprit.. but even then, it's not the device or technology that is bad, but the implementation of it. Just like barcodes aren't bad necessarily, but if you start tattooing them on people, it's obviously bad.

Originally posted by Sky watcher
Most states have filed suit over the ID. The government can take the REAL ID and stick it up their candy you know what.

Please tell me GA is one of them, otherwise I'll have to move back, is IL one of them too? cuze that's the only other place I could possibly move to lol!

Well, Maine has been working on this since this time last year.
(Edit to add)
This article has a great video with info regarding this bill and Maine Sen. Susan Libby gives a great reason why this shouldn't be implemented.

Maine Lawmakers Take Stand Against Real ID Act

The lawmakers cite the same issues that were stated earlier. It would be easier to get personal information, illegal immigration issues and etc. I urge you to check with your state lawmakers to see if your state has implemeted anything in conjuction with this.

JackCash



[edit on 11-1-2008 by JackCash]

Chertoff to Announce National ID Standards
REAL ID Program Has Drawn Criticism From States, Privacy Groups
By JASON RYAN and PIERRE THOMAS
Jan. 11, 2008
Following 9/11 commission recommendations aimed at rooting out potential terrorists, driver's license rules and procedures will be standardized across all 50 states, the Department of Homeland Security will announce today.
But the new plan is likely to anger many -- from states who will have to implement the costly changes to civil rights groups who charge the changes will invade individuals' privacy and make them more vulnerable to identity theft.
The program, called REAL ID, will require states to demand certain standards for individuals obtaining driver's licenses, including proof of citizenship and residency, instead of the typical date of birth and Social Security number.
States will also have to work together to make certain the applicants don't obtain multiple licenses. They'll also need to add security features into the license design in order to help stop counterfeiting.
U.S. citizens born after Dec. 1, 1964 will have to comply with the new guidelines by 2014. Individuals over the age of 50 would not have to comply, an exception designed to help states transition into the new plan.
Following a recommendation by the 9/11 commission that the United States standardize secure identification documents, Congress passed the REAL ID Act in May 2005.
The 19 9/11 hijackers had a combined 364 aliases, and 18 of those 19 hijackers had some form of fake identification -- including 17 with phony or illegally obtained driver's licenses.
In March 2007, when Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff announced the initial proposals for the REAL ID system, he said, "The REAL ID Act aims to make it harder for dangerous people to obtain licenses fraudulently and to make it easier for law enforcement and counterterrorism authorities to detect documents that have already been falsified."
DHS has said individuals will be required to present a REAL ID-verified identification for boarding commercial airline flights, accessing a federal facilities and entering nuclear power plants. Obtaining a REAL ID approved license or identification card could impact millions of citizens who fly.
The initial proposals for the program required states to have applicants provide documentation for their name and date of birth, Social Security number and their address. Some states around the country have expressed concern about changing their current system of issuing driver's licenses because of costs.
Overall cost estimates for the REAL ID program nationwide range from $11 billion to $23 billion. The state of Maine has said that the program could cost its taxpayers $181 million to implement over the first five years. The Maine State Legislature passed a resolution, 171-4, urging the U.S. Congress to eliminate the REAL ID program; other legislation bars the Secretary of State from using any state funds for REAL ID efforts.
Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff said U.S. citizens understand the need for such a program, and called their wish for more stringent identity protection measures "undeniable."
As for the cost to states, DHS maintains that the changes are what citizens want, and that the department will help defray the costs by issuing federal grants.
Chertoff said in a statement Friday, "For an extra $8 per license, REAL ID will give law enforcement and security officials a powerful advantage against falsified documents, and it will bring some peace of mind to citizens wanting to protect their identity from theft by a criminal or illegal alien."
DHS says it's making approximately $360 million in grant money available to assist states with the implementation of the new guidelines, but states will need to come up with funds for the remainder of the costs.
States will ultimately bear the brunt: the new guidelines come with a hefty price tag, even after the grants: $3.9 billion, reduced from an original projection of $14.6 billion.
"There's no doubt about it. The states carry the heavy burden here, essentially they're turned into the investigative arm of the federal government to insure [that] people are who they say they are, and the burden is in the billions of dollars," Michael Greenberger, Director of the Center for Health and Homeland Security at the University of Maryland School of Law. "The federal government today is announcing that the burden has been reduced, but the states are getting pennies on the dollar for the obligations they have to fulfill this. It's a clear cut unfunded mandate."
The new guidelines quickly sparked criticism from a top Democrat on Capitol Hill, even before they were officially announced.
"It is unfortunate that instead of addressing the fundamental problems this law poses for the states, the [Bush] Administration appears content merely to prolong a contentious and unproductive battle to force the states to comply," Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., said in a statement Friday morning.
"Rather than improved security, this course will result in resentment, litigation, and enormous costs that states will be forced to absorb."
Citing 21 states opposing the program, and six states that "expressly prohibit compliance with REAL ID by statute," Leahy continues, "The Administration would do much better to treat the states as partners, and forego the paternalistic mandates that the American people are rejecting."
The state of Maine, for example, has said that the program could cost its taxpayers $181 million to implement over its first five years. The Maine State Legislature passed legislation which bars the Secretary of State from using any state funds for REAL ID efforts, and also approved a resolution, by a 171-4 vote, urging the U.S. Congress to eliminate the REAL ID program.
Congress passed REAL ID legislation in May 2005 on the recommendation of the 9/11 Commission.
But financial burden aside, Greenberger also echoes the concerns of many privacy groups.
"The key question is that the states are going to have to create massive databases, use massive databases, and are these databases going to be secure?" he asks. "The track record on the security of these databases is not good. They are hacked into on a regular basis."
Additionally, wait times at local departments of motor vehicles are expected to increase. An impact analysis by the National Governors Association from 2006 noted, "To comply with the requirement that all [driver's licenses/identification] card holders re-verify their identity with the state, individuals must gather and present all their identification documents, which may more than double the length of time they spend at their DMVs."
abcnews.go.com...


[edit on 1/12/2008 by NotOnMyWatch]

reply to post by bestideayet


I sincerely hope for the sake of my grandchildren who are U.S. Americans that this REAL ID legistlation is repealed and that Senator Leahy and company are successful.

The drive to herd and control U.S. citizens by the Department of Homeland Security must be repelled by anyone who loves the liberties enshrined in the U.S. Constitution.

I still do not understand how you U.S. Americans can stand by and allow Michael Chertoff to be so high in your government when he is an Israeli citizen as well as a U.S. citizen. Everyone in the world seems to know this except for U.S. Americans, and that blows my ancient mind. Or perhaps U.S. Americans don't care about people with mixed loyalties running the nation. After all George W. Bush does the bidding of David Rockefeller and doesn't give a fig for the U.S. American citizenry.