No power - no web?

Originally posted by jtma508
Edn... such a thing already exists and has for a long time. Most of us in amateur radio (HAM) are experienced with it and many of us are set-up to use it. We can send digital files radio-to-radio and can even bridge to the internet. We're talking much smaller bandwidth so forget downloading large files. Everyone seriously interested in survival owes it to themselves to get into radio. And the more onerous (morse code) requirements have just recently been eliminated.

I new it could happen

Of course you are right about bandwidth but then I would think it more useful for something like what the original poster suggested a small hub of useful information and maybe even your old dial in bulliten board for important local info.

One thing that just came to mind would be how to effectively handle simultaneous traffic to the same server off the top of my head I would think the best way to do it would be to have two frequency's one for incoming and one for outgoing, then attach id's to each computer connecting to allow identification and sorting of incoming traffic and allow outgoing traffic to be picked up by the right person at the other end.

Any thoughts on that?

Hi Edn...

Do some research on Packet Radio to get a better idea how it works. It would be possible to set-up centralized servers but that would require multiple radios (each operating on a different frequency), multiple TNC's (terminal node controllers - the unit the interfaces the radio to the computer) and a server network. My system, like lots of people's, has a TNC that has two ports: one supports VHF and the other HF and they can bridge. Personally, I think a better way to manage it in a Sit-X environment would be to de-centralize the file library.

Is this the ultimate in off-grid survival computing?

In a field near Sandwich in Kent, Alan Gibbs, a local model maker, is firing up his steam engine. Its chimney is coughing out irritated little clouds of smuts and its pistons are bobbing up and down.

At a table, curator Rob Tufnell is using an Apple Mac powered by the engine. For this is the Steam Powered Internet Machine: the latest deeply eccentric project from Turner-prizewinning artist Jeremy Deller and his collaborator Alan Kane. "We were thinking about something that connects the industrial revolution and the digital revolution," said Deller. Kane added: "They are worlds apart but there's also a proximity. The steam age and the digital age are not so far apart."
The Guardian

Wifi and WiMax should be able to create smaller local high speed networks. I'm not an expert on network servers but I know we had only 3 computer or servers for some 500+ computers when I was in the Middle East Satellite service systems are expensive and uploading is slower but as long as you've got power and an antennae, you should be able to get to the internet as long as the PTB don't decide to turn off the internet. Hillary Clinton wants to shut it down and create a safer web "for the children". She also wants to do away with anonymous surfing.

here are a couple of units that can be used for home and outdoor use.







There are many different versions of these unit that can be viewed here including prices .
kensolar.com...

I highly suggest you NEVER rely on the internet.
Download what you need, print it off, and laminate it so it's waterproof, and keep a backup on the comp, but NEVER rely on your comp to be there in a Situation X.

Originally posted by MichaelMyers
I highly suggest you NEVER rely on the internet.
Download what you need, print it off, and laminate it so it's waterproof, and keep a backup on the comp, but NEVER rely on your comp to be there in a Situation X.

Hear Hear Well said MM. The computer like all tools should never be relied on. You should only rely on yourself. If they still had the WATS award I would have voted for you, but they dont. So let me just say nice job.

I just watched The Day After and realized my computer, radio & backup power aren’t invincible and would be fried via EMP.

Damn it.

I’m off to download specs of the steam engine and abacus and thank all for the great info and links.

Sauron for things such as wind turbines your probably better off making your own, I know most people up in the highlands and islands of Scotland tend to use there own home built wind turbines because its cheaper, also it means you get to know how they work so in the event that it breaks or you need more you can always fix/make them.

It's great to have personal alternative power sources but for the internet to remain up all the switches, routers, servers and support equipment that comprises the internet backbone have to stay up first. Even if only part of the support backbone goes down the recuction in bandwidth will be significant. TelCo will switch resources to support public safety functions. Don't count on the interent when Sit-X hits.

There are some other options requiring more specialized, harder-to-find equipment that might be less susceptible to a Situation-X scenario.

Aside from Wifi there are a few other means of accessing the internet wirelessly:
Wireless Broadband
EVDO
HSDPA
UMTS-TDD
and Satellite Internet

If you could access or assemble the equipment needed to make use of the networks these technologies compose, you could probably get online well after Situation-X begins.

Of course these technologies do have earth-based components, such as control centers, backbone links, satellite dishes, radio towers, cellular towers, etc. So if these went you'd be SOL.

The safest of all, satellite internet, should theoretically survive any Situation-X not involving a planned and organized takeover by a government, or nuclear war. It is also the hardest to access and the slowest.

Finally, you would have to consider this: just what would you find when you accessed the "internet"? Google's datacenters could probably survive almost anything but the fact is that the huge majority of the internet is cable-based, and it is no longer redundant. If a major connection went down, such as that to/from an ISP's datacenter, a backbone connection, it would cripple most everything in that subsection of the net. Or if the DNS center went down, the internet would immediately cease to exist (as we know it).

Assuming a very-large-scale (multi-continent/hemisphere) disaster affecting the U.S. (where a good deal of the backbone connections and the DNS servers are), In all likelihood there would be little accessible on the working internet, and you would be one of a only a handful of people on it if connection required such equipment.

So unless there is something very very important that you foresee needing the internet for, it would probably be better to invest in radio as has been suggested.

However, in the true to-the-ends-of-the-earth spirit, if during/after a Situation-X of truly apocalyptic proportions, if some part of it was still working, if you could get a connection, if, if, if... it would not be impossible. I'd suggest stocking up on technical books, everything you can find on digital electronics, radio, radio-signaling, data transmission, internet communications, protocols, networks, etc. With the proper materials and knowledge you could access the internet and use it for whatever ends you wanted, though at this level it would probably not be reading emails. This would be hacking on a level unfathomable to most hackers, it would involve engineering and equipment that are at the peak of human achievement. It makes for great sci-fi but it isn't practical.

An image comes to mind of Mad Max logging on to the internet with a massive salvaged desktop terminal and a 12" CRT.

Of course anything you really want to keep should be archived locally, but I would argue that in the event of the STHF, what you really want is hardcopy. Especially for emergency information of any kind. Paper is cheap these days, at least a hell of a lot cheaper than it will be after Sit X. You're not going to be cranking up the generator just to get around to reading those survival PDFs you've been hoarding. The internet may have been a military project originally, but you can bet they sure aren't banking on its resilience these days.


[edit on 3-6-2007 by STArG8]

The LAST thing you should be worried about in a Situation X, is the goddamned internet.

The internet may go down but digital communication may be the glue that holds the civilization together. Less then 17 years ago, very few people were hooked up to the internet but now it's the backbone of modern communication. BTW you don't need satellites or cables to create some fairly fast networks. If we ditch much of the graphics, a ton of alpha-numeric data could keep much of the world in touch.

If there was a disaster and the world was going to crap. I would be out there risking my life, not wasting my time in chatrooms and porno sites.

Originally posted by Ironside
If there was a disaster and the world was going to crap. I would be out there risking my life, not wasting my time in chatrooms and porno sites.

Ironside Well I feel there is sense in what you say, it isn't necessarily accurate.
Communication in a world wide disaster can be the back bone to tell people like you and I ware were needed most, or to let us know when back-up is coming.

We may be on the front lines but if your a trained life saver then you know there is a large group behind the scenes helping to move the rescue in the right direction. If your not a trained life saver then trust me there is a very large group who never go out in the field. These people telling others ware to go are the backbone of any rescue Organization.

Some how I doubt if the world were going to crap people would be wasting there time looking at porn.

Simply my friend, no power - no web is just not true! The internet is the most powerful tool on the planet because even if the internet doesnt exist globally, those with generated powers or solar panels such as you had suggested will still be able to create peer to peer networks and it will simply re-build itself from there.

In other words.. As long as theres a geek with a will there is a way for the internet to function. Just don't expect to hit up myspace the first day it happens

Originally posted by angryamerican
Some how I doubt if the world were going to crap people would be wasting there time looking at porn.

It's never a waste of time.....

I think that too many people don't realise that when the world goes to sh1t the people who run the servers, phone lines etc will probably be calling in sick. We'll be back in the stone age boys and girls. We take the internet for granted these days, but we forget how much work it actually takes to keep it up and running.

Assuming that there are sufficient people who are more concerned with keeping servers up and running than staying alive, any electricity/power sources will be rationed to provide for more essential needs.

When it happens, Sit X will be a race for survival. It will be dog eat dog. Putting food on the table will be tough enough in the face of the harsh realities of life without social restraints. Anyone who wastes their time trying to get a network up and running will be dead. They will either starve or be killed by the groups hoarders that will become prevelant.

Any attempts at building a communications network will be quashed by whatever government rises from the ashes. Sit X will be the ideal time for government to instigate a level of rule that is unobtainable in peace time, all for our 'protection' you understand. The key to this will be reduction in unrestricted communication mediums.

In short, Situation X will almost certainly be the end of the internet as we know it. The same goes for all forms of mass unrestricted communication.

To be honest the idea of the net going down is not the biggest problem I'll be worrying about. I'll be more concerned with hunting geeks for their food and water

PI, even if the entire world were struck with a total loss of basic civil services, humans would quickly pick up the pieces to restore communications as soon as possible. Mass and long distance communication is now as vital to the functioning of human society as water and food largely because we are now so dependent on it. Think what would have happened in New Orleans if there had been no hurricane tracking system. The group or nation that recovers its communication infrastructure first after a global disaster will recover far more quickly than its rivals that don't. We may not have the full on internet but the larger the group the more organization it requires to function efficiently and there's no way way faster to communicate effectively than the internet or its future post disaster equivalent.