Unknown ancient(sacred)geometry

Originally posted by andymonk
Brotherforchrist and trinityman have gone very quiet. I wonder why?

And you didn't address the point I made on the last page which refuted your claims. I wonder why?

There is certainly no poor freemasons in britain.I take back what i said about freemasons in general. I,m sure your friend is a good man and has no idea what freemasonry is really about.

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removed quote of post above

[edit on 4/1/08 by masqua]

Originally posted by andymonk
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Brotherforchrist and trinityman have gone very quiet. I wonder why?


Maybe because you are desperately seeking attention on boards and lashing out against something that you do not understand out of fear and lack of self esteem, and no amount of logic or respectfulness, or answering your questions does any good whatsoever, because you are going to believe your misguided crackpot theories that have no research to back them up whatsoever, regardless of what anyone says.

Why should I or anyone else give you the undeserved respect to answer your questions, when every time a question is asked to you or of you, you dismiss them and ignore them, and make egregious claims and never back uthem up with any sort of proof.Or maybe because you cry to mods about people and get them warned, why did you request my warning Andy, are you afraid that my posts are logical and more believable than your paranoid delusions, so you are trying to keep me quiet?

You try to paint us into a corner where we are damned if we do and damned if we don't.If we choose to simply ignore you and your ridiculous thread and claims then you try to convince people that our lack of response isn't due the fact that you are blatantly being an attention whore and an obvious board troll, and that each reply feeds your ego and post count (which is so important to you evidenced by you talking crap on me for how many ATS points I had AFTER you cried to a mod and got me warned,showing what a class act you are in general), so that the best way to deal with your delusions is just to ignore you and in time you will grow tired ranting when you see that nobody cares, or everyone thinks you are foolish.

However, you would gladly turn the lack of response on my or trin's part into the argument "they have nothing to say because I am right, and they .. whatever you think it is that we do,eat babies,worship Satan, travel through time,contact aliens,bring things into existence by thought,force of will,and some crappy picture of a flower,.." as evidenced above and feed your ego even more ,which is already exceedingly large.There is a natural drive for anyone to defend something that is important to them from unfair,unjust,and untrue allegations, whether it is a person or an organization.Just think perhaps for a moment that I went around in public,proclaiming to anyone that was willing to listen that your mother drank blood, and worshiped Satan, and not to believe your mother or you, because you were lying, and that even if you said that you didn't you were intentionally lied to and deceived. Would you most likely be more than a little angry?

Once again I say the burden of proof is upon the accuser, that is the way any court of law works.If you want answers to any questions from me, you better start scrolling back through this post and answer every question that myself or any other poster asks of you and that you dodge/ignore.You are a complete board troll, and commenting here and feeding your ego is a waste of time.

Oh, and by the way I would add you as a respected enemy on ATS,but that would imply that I had any amount of respect for you,which obviously is not the case,you are a liar and a coward that uses people's lack of knowledge and understanding as a way to manipulate.

Originally posted by andymonk
There is certainly no poor freemasons in britain.I take back what i said about freemasons in general. I,m sure your friend is a good man and has no idea what freemasonry is really about.

He IS a good man. But are you saying that as a Mason he doesn't know about Freemasonry but you as a non-Mason do?

Originally posted by andymonk

Originally posted by Trinityman

Originally posted by andymonk
A freemason who has completed the blue and become a master mason is a low rank. Most masons think there are no higher degrees after this. After the blue you cannot move any higher unless you are invited to do so. Maybe you should research,what it takes to be invited to move up.

Well then, since I am apparently so ignorant and you are apparently so knowledgeable, perhaps you could explain what the next levels are above master mason?

Albert Pike says "Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! It is he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish Souls? Doubt it not!" TITLES OF DEGREES ... (snip)...

OK, so you have listed the degrees available in the Scottish Rite, an optional side order beyond the first three degrees found in Craft masonry. You have also listed the first three degrees as well, just to be helpful.

I'm interested in why you think the Scottish Rite is the progression for freemasons to take. What about the York Rite? Do freemasons who opt to take this route miss out on something?

And what about freemasonry outside of the USA? The system is entirely different in various countries around the world, where most freemasons have never even heard of Albert Pike. In England, for example, there are a huge number of side orders vying for the attention of Craft masons. Very few join Rose Croix (which offers the degrees you listed), and it is hardly regarded as any more or less "senior" an order than, say, KT.

I take it from your reply that you regard a 32nd degree freemason as "higher" than a Grand Master who is not a member of the Scottish Rite - is this correct?

Incidentally, since you like Albert Pike and his "lucifer" quote why don't you read a little more about it here.

I hope you will feel comfortable answering these questions, as by drilling down to some of the detail in this way we can, perhaps, get to the bottom of things. I certainly feel that I am beginning to understand where you are coming from.

Originally posted by andymonk
Brotherforchrist and trinityman have gone very quiet. I wonder why?

Do you think that might be because we have lives beyond ATS? I hope everyone here does. Is it important to you that I post within a specific timeframe?

Originally posted by sb2012
He also explains:

"Masonry, like all the Religions... (snip) ... heaped round it by the ages. " pg. 819

He further announces:

"Everyone is entirely free to reject and dissent from whatsoever herein may seem to him to be untrue or unsound." Albert Pike, Preface, Morals and Dogma

I have no earthly idea why everyone is so hung up on Pike. As a freemason I'd never even heard of him until I started visiting anti-masonic sites!

Originally posted by sb2012
He also explains:

"Masonry, like all the Religions, all the Mysteries, Hermeticism and Alchemy, conceals its secrets from all except the Adepts and Sages, or the Elect, and uses false explanations and misinterpretations of its symbols to mislead those who deserve only to be misled; to conceal the Truth, which it calls Light, from them, and to draw them away from it. Truth is not for those who are unworthy or unable to receive it..." pg. 104-105, Morals and Dogma, Albert Pike

"The Blue Degrees are but the outer court or portico of the Temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the Initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them; but it is intended that he shall imagine he understands them. Their true explication is reserved for the Adepts, the Princes of Masonry. The whole body of the Royal and Sacerdotal Art was hidden so carefully, centuries since, in the High Degrees, as that it is even yet impossible to solve many of the enigmas which they contain. It is well enough for the mass of those called Masons, to imagine that all is contained in the Blue Degrees; and whoso attempts to undeceive them will labor in vain, and without any true reward violate his obligations as an Adept. Masonry is the veritable Sphinx, buried to the head in the sands heaped round it by the ages. " pg. 819

So much secrecy even inside society, pyramid scheme. But since they are not hiding away from church it seems this is kept because it's useful for political control.

What does any of that have to do with "political control"?

In the first quote, Pike offers his belief that Freemasonry contains the ancient Magian truths, but that most Masons ignore it. This is hardly a newsflash, and is similar to what I've been saying all along. Pike, in my opinion, is correct that most Masons erroneously believe they understand Masons. Of course, this goes for non-Masons too (even more so). At least the Masons understand that good morals and charitable conduct are the first step of the Path.

As for the second quote, Pike has proven incorrect. The way it is posted above, it is taken out of context, and does not show what he is talking about. He was, in fact, speaking of his belief that Masonry was founded by Knights Templar, and that the Masonic institution is a continuation of Templary.

Pike, of course, did not have access to all of the documentation and knowledge that we possess today, and can be forgiven. He was simply echoing a popular theory of his day which turned out to be wrong. He noticed that nothing is said in the Blue Degrees about the Templars, so assumed that false explanations had been devised. Neverthless, I agree with him concerning the "Royal and Sacerdotal Art".

Originally posted by andymonk
There is certainly no poor freemasons in Britain.

And you know this how?

There are certainly no destitute freemasons in Britain. Freemasonry is a big family and families look after their own. However there are plenty of working class freemasons, and I've really got no idea what point you are trying to make.

Originally posted by intrepid
He IS a good man. But are you saying that as a Mason he doesn't know about Freemasonry but you as a non-Mason do?

No, he's not saying that. What he appears to be saying is that ALL masons don't know about freemasonry but he as a non-mason does.

I'm completely fascinated by Andymonk and I really hope he will stick with this discussion and reveal the extent of his knowledge about freemasonry, and how he managed to come by this knowledge.

I think he gets the knowledge from the voices in his head.

For those who can't hear voices, this link may be useful. Funny thing, many of the stuff portrayed as irrelevant here i find in almost every masonic book i encounter online or off line.

About Pike this page is surely interesting (but it's full of Christian propaganda). He most certainly was not someone who would just echo stuff. He devoted his life for masonry and other occult sciences. He was "Freemasonry’s most eminent philosopher" and Sovereign Grand Commander. He has statue in downtown Washington DC. wiki


[edit on 23-6-2007 by sb2012]

Originally posted by sb2012


About Pike this page is surely interesting (but it's full of Christian propaganda).

Again, I guess it depends on what your definition of "interesting" is. But I certainly agree that the page is propaganda.

He most certainly was not someone who would just echo stuff. He devoted his life for masonry and other occult sciences. He was "Freemasonry’s most eminent philosopher" and Sovereign Grand Commander. He has statue in downtown Washington DC.

For me, Pike was one of the reasons I wanted to become a Mason in the first place. After reading "Morals and Dogma", I knew it was for me.

Yeah Manly P Hall and his authoritative books on Masonry written 20 some odd years before he was ever a mason. I don't know about astrophysics,how serious would you take a book that I have written about astrophysics?

You would say Manly P. Hall's work is not connected to masonry and unimportant? His entire collection? Now, this is watering-down gone bad.

"In his over 70-year career, Hall delivered approximately 8,000 lectures in the United States and abroad, authored over 150 books and essays, and wrote countless magazine articles." wiki

If his work is not relevant then i don't know what to say. Which sausages you like for BBQ?

It is impossible for hall to know about what masonry is about/stands for etc,without becoming a member.Yes Hall wrote a monumental amount both before and after becoming a Mason, and Hall's beliefs and opinions are simply that, beliefs and opinions, I am a mason does that mean that if I wrote hundreds of books and gave thousands of lectures on my philosophical beliefs, or what masonry meant to me, it would automatically be indicative of what the fraternity as a whole believes?

Because something is my truth, or my belief does not make it anyone else's truth or belief,save mine.Other brothers may read it, be inspired by it,dismiss it as garbage/fantasy/not applicable. Masonry for me is simply about philosophy, and an exchange of ideas, and about application of principles of ethical and moral rectitude, about helping others when in need, mason or non, for no reward other than the reward of knowing that I did what was the right thing to do for no other merit than its rightness, goodness, or justness.

I think in today's society we have so many freedoms that we take for granted that we fail to remember that there was a time, a set point in history, where all men being able to sit together without lines of class distinction, religious intolerance, or being separated by political beliefs /ideologies was a rather remarkable thing. In today's society of freedoms and rights things like this are often taken for granted, especially in America. I think instead of bashing freemasonry, you should be thinking it, at least if you live in the United States, because the ideologies that this nation were founded upon, and the freedoms that we have are clearly Masonic.

Do you want to know the great secret of Freemasonry? Love and coexistence, hardly anything new or revolutionary, but undenyably powerful in action.Maybe if society could learn to coexist regardless of what our Religious beliefs are and realize that zealotry leading to war leading to death is unequivocally evil, and that separation based upon any lines, be they class/socioeconomic, race/ethnicity, gender, sexuality serve only to drive mankind away from all that is right, just, good, and sacred in the universe, we could realize potential that humanity has yet to see.

Imagine a society where instead of spending trillions on ways to take life, we all coexisted, and that money was spent instead of preserving life, and giving people a better quality of life in their old age,or more years to enjoy.Imagine the world realizing how asinine it is to fight over imaginary lines on a map, a world where we no longer have food rotting away in warehouses while people starve to death because food is for profit and not to feed the hungry.Imagine a world where people stopped fighting over their differences and instead celebrated their similarities, that spark of life endowed in every one of us by the creator of the universe and all in existence, and realized that we may have differences but we are all the same.

What could a society like this accomplish? A society that was determined to forgive instead of invoke retribution, a society that gently taught correction when someone made an error, a society where we decided there would be no more destruction.Is this possible? Can this ever truly exist? Those questions remain to be seen, but for my part, on a small local level, I strive for it, and dream of it.Did I NEED Freemasonry to believe this, or work for it? Probably not, but it is a place to find a ethically and morally good group of people who are willing to do their part to make their communities better, and in turn this makes the world a much less dismal place.

Originally posted by sb2012
You would say Manly P. Hall's work is not connected to masonry and unimportant? His entire collection? Now, this is watering-down gone bad.

"In his over 70-year career, Hall delivered approximately 8,000 lectures in the United States and abroad, authored over 150 books and essays, and wrote countless magazine articles." wiki

If his work is not relevant then i don't know what to say. Which sausages you like for BBQ?

I never had the opportunity to meet Brother Hall, but did engage in a brief but fraternal correspondence with him shortly before his death. I found him to be a perfect gentleman with absolute patience, unwaveringly ready to assist idiots like me.

Brother Hall was a vegetarian, and therefore would have passed on the sausages and BBQ.

Originally posted by brotherforchrist
(...)
Do you want to know the great secret of Freemasonry? Love and coexistence, hardly anything new or revolutionary, but undeniably powerful in action.Maybe if society could learn to coexist regardless of what our Religious beliefs are and realize that zealotry leading to war leading to death is unequivocally evil, and that separation based upon any lines, be they class/socioeconomic, race/ethnicity, gender, sexuality serve only to drive mankind away from all that is right, just, good, and sacred in the universe, we could realize potential that humanity has yet to see.

Imagine a society where instead of spending trillions on ways to take life, we all coexisted, and that money was spent instead of preserving life, and giving people a better quality of life in their old age,or more years to enjoy.Imagine the world realizing how asinine it is to fight over imaginary lines on a map, a world where we no longer have food rotting away in warehouses while people starve to death because food is for profit and not to feed the hungry.Imagine a world where people stopped fighting over their differences and instead celebrated their similarities, that spark of life endowed in every one of us by the creator of the universe and all in existence, and realized that we may have differences but we are all the same.
(...)

Well, i would say he knew what he talked about. I mean, just check his books and you can't deny it.

About world in cooperation and spiritual awareness, yes i also support the idea, but i am not sure if Freemasons are doing what they should, that is, using their power of influence to influence global changes in that direction. It's not enough to just focus on spiritual, we are in turbulent times and people need some direction, especially lunatics who want to microchip every newborn.

I know your organization has many influential people inside and this is what your organization should do. Spiritual can wait for later. Stop being so passive all the time.

There is still other possibility - let's implant all the population and send electrical impulses to anyone who doesn't comply. Like Borg. But that would guarantee new Atlantis pretty fast. They sure were advanced.

Originally posted by sb2012
i am not sure if Freemasons are doing what they should, that is, using their power of influence to influence global changes in that direction...I know your organization has many influential people inside and this is what your organization should do. Spiritual can wait for later. Stop being so passive all the time.

What you're basically asking is for Freemasonry to stop being Freemasonry, and become something else.

In reality, there are plenty of secular organizations that have goals such as you have outlined, and are far more influential than you imagine Freemasonry to be. Believe it or not, there is room in the world for organizations like Masonry, which focus on the spiritual development of the individual.

And there are probably more like me who believe that the spiritual aspect in life is the MOST important, and unless a person is well-grounded spiritually, no amount of politics or wealth in the world is going to bring them happiness.

Freemasonry does indeed have the potential to make the world a better place, but no through politics. Masonry seeks to improve the individual...but since society is composed of individuals, we can see Masonic virtues mirrored in greater society because of this.