The New And Improved "Way Above Top Secret"

damajikninja,

Yeah, I did misunderstand a few aspects of your post. I confused your proposal of removing our own flags for removing the flags of other member's. I stand corrected. As for the discrepancy between Majic's words and I, I stand by what I said. At one time or another, "almost" every post is read by at least one staff member. Is it read immediately? No. Is every post read extremely thorough? No. But for the most part, this board is governed on all ends and each thread is at least peaked at by the staff.

In reference to the Applauses, you fail to recognize the Forum Subject Matter Experts. These are members, (some are staff members as well) that have the ability to offer up an Applause. When a member is an absolute stand out in a specific forum, or comes to ATS with a strong background in the field, they are sometimes asked to represent the forum as a "FSME".

Not every member has this ability, but there are quite a few that do.

Originally posted by damajikninja
Thanks for your blunt opinion. Regardless of your agreement/disagreement with a poster, the applause still only comes from MODs, and is therefore representative of what MODs individualy deem as good posts. Thats all I was getting at; not a gripe on MODs.

I see this as a positive. Staff members have been here for a long time, and have "paid their dues". I think our staff are in an excellent position to determine what is "Applause Worthy" and offer this pat on the back to those that have earned it. Giving every member the ability to dish out would Applauses would quickly deteriorate the worth of one. Supply and demand. If everyone can give one, they would become next to worthless.

I'm not sure if your proposing that every member should be able to give out an Applause, but I would oppose that suggestion. Flagging a member's thread is not always enough of a "thank you", but it is best to keep in mind that we are here to discuss the issues ourselves. First and foremost, discussion should be the number one reason we are here.

If we are here to "win" something, and nothing more, I think we'd have to rethink our agenda.

Nine out of ten times, those that are rewarded with items on ATS, whether it is an Applause, WATS, or even a staff position, it is because they were here to discuss the issues and nothing more. The purpose of researching a subject was not to garner an Applause or a WATS Vote, it was to present the idea and discuss it with intelligent members.

Sometimes I think members forget that and get sidetracked with all of the luxuries that comes with our membership.

At the end of the day, our ability to post is the end all be all.

Chissler

Thanks for your last post. I'm glad we were able to clear up some things and find some common ground. In addition, let me add a few more thoughts to our debate.

APPLAUSE IS GOOD.

I like the applause system as is. I agree that the MODs (and FSMEs) are great judges of posts, and do a great job handing out applause when they see a good post. I am proof of that - I have 16 applauds since my January sign-up!

I did not mean to sound as though I was beating up on the applause system, or the staff. When I said that applause was "flawed", I was simply trying to validate my idea for a "Good Job" button for the community. I was comparing the two ideas with the concept that they make up for each other's flaws. Staff doesn't see every post, but make great descisions when identifying a quality post. The community sees EVERYTHING, but maybe isn't always the best judge of a great post. That's kinda where the word "flawed" came from.

Also, I don't think it would be good for members to be able to hand out applause. Give them a "good job" button, and thats plenty for them. Just a nice organized way to give post credit at the community level.

Lastly, I agree that ATS is not a forum based contest. Rather, it is an intellectual forum that awards it's best content. Prizes vs. Recognition.
I am happy just being able to discuss things here, which my post history should convey. I have enough points to get RATS, and a couple profile toys, and a handfull of applauds. I could care less if I get any further prizes. lol But, recognition of a good job is always nice.

Granted, some squabbly members will get caught up in the points and prizes game, but those guys will always be there to some degree - and teh system isn't really designed to cater to them anyways.

Anyways, I'm happy with the debate we've had. I'm sure other's will chime in here with their thoughts as well. Thanks for your input Chissler.

PEACE

[edit on 5/14/2007 by damajikninja]

Originally posted by TheBorg
Time for more kudos. You've managed to put everything I've been trying to say into the words that I've been looking for. Nicely done!!!

TheBorg

Almost missed this! Thanks for the props!

OK so how do you give some one a WATS for their individual post? I wanted to give some sort of recognition for a post, but I couldn't figure out how.

I can't give Applause, I can't give a WATS, and flagging the thread is like giving a WATS to the thread starter, so what do I do?

Originally posted by grimreaper797
OK so how do you give some one a WATS for their individual post? I wanted to give some sort of recognition for a post, but I couldn't figure out how.

I can't give Applause, I can't give a WATS, and flagging the thread is like giving a WATS to the thread starter, so what do I do?

Well, right now you can't. The WATS feature has been removed. Currently, the only way to give kudos to an individual post is to make another post telling them how good their post was. Either that, or send them a U2U. Admins, MODs, and FSMEs can still give out applause as usual though.

[edit on 5/14/2007 by damajikninja]

Maybe the post applause / 'wats vote' could find success if it were possible to disable it from the original post, so that the friends forming coalitions scenario mentioned wouldn't be such a big threat with OP's getting flags and votes when they post a thread.

[edit on 14-5-2007 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

Originally posted by damajikninja
Well, right now you can't. The WATS feature has been removed. Currently, the only way to give kudos to an individual post is to make another post telling them how good their post was. Either that, or send them a U2U. Admins, MODs, and FSMEs can still give out applause as usual though.

[edit on 5/14/2007 by damajikninja]

well thats definately a step back in the voting system. Flagging may be a step foward for a thread that deserves attention, but its no replacement for WATS.

Flagging is good, but its not a replacement for WATS and shouldnt even be considered the same category. WATS was for an individuals post, whereas flagging is for threads, and has nothing to do with an individuals efforts half the time.

I could post something important, with little effort, and get a bunch of flags because of it's importance, rather than effort which was what WATS was for.

If I see an important thread, I flag it. If I see a well thought out, very outstanding post that makes great points, I would WATS it. Why can't we have both systems?

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
Maybe the post applause / 'wats vote' could find success if it were possible to disable it from the original post, so that the friends forming coalitions scenario mentioned wouldn't be such a big threat with OP's getting flags and votes when they post a thread.

[edit on 14-5-2007 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

I like this idea. Makes sense too; why should a post have the opportunity to glean kudos from both sides?

Flags for Threads/OP & Votes/WATS for Posts

Grim: The reason we don't have WATS anymore is because as a whole, we haven't been using it. I think that is because we only had three per month to disburse, making everyone think twice before using it. Maybe if we had more or unlimited WATS, we would use them more.

[edit on 5/14/2007 by damajikninja]

Originally posted by damajikninja
Grim: The reason we don't have WATS anymore is because as a whole, we haven't been using it. I think that is because we only had three per month to disburse, making everyone think twice before using it. Maybe if we had more or unlimited WATS, we would use them more.

[edit on 5/14/2007 by damajikninja]

Actually, from what I have read, quite the opposite has been true. Recently, we've seen record setting months for how many WATS have been submitted. It's not that members have not been using their votes, it's that we've yet to have a winner in quite some time. We would have countless members garnering votes, but nobody was getting enough to qualify for WATS. And in the months that somebody did have enough votes to qualify for the award, they would have ten or eleven other members with the exact same amount of votes.

I remember one month we seen the medallion on a few members.

With the size of Above Top Secret, and the amount of members passing through in a day, I think the WATS System was a little outdated.

Shouldn't we be disabled from flagging our own threads?

I don't know how difficult any of these ideas we say are to implement, but you guys impress me with what's there, so I hope this discourse isn't being annoying.

Originally posted by chissler

Originally posted by damajikninja
Grim: The reason we don't have WATS anymore is because as a whole, we haven't been using it. I think that is because we only had three per month to disburse, making everyone think twice before using it. Maybe if we had more or unlimited WATS, we would use them more.

[edit on 5/14/2007 by damajikninja]

Actually, from what I have read, quite the opposite has been true. Recently, we've seen record setting months for how many WATS have been submitted. It's not that members have not been using their votes, it's that we've yet to have a winner in quite some time. We would have countless members garnering votes, but nobody was getting enough to qualify for WATS. And in the months that somebody did have enough votes to qualify for the award, they would have ten or eleven other members with the exact same amount of votes.

Ahh, I must have misread what skeptic was telling me. Now you force me to stand corrected. Touché. So in a sense, WATS was working too well?

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
Shouldn't we be disabled from flagging our own threads?

I don't know how difficult any of these ideas we say are to implement, but you guys impress me with what's there, so I hope this discourse isn't being annoying.

No annoyances here. ATS is for this kind of open discussion and debate.

It does seem a bit daft, giving yourself kudos... but from what Skeptic said, it really doesn't matter. You can only give yourself one flag, and it takes a certain number of flags to even be considered for the award.

[edit on 5/15/2007 by damajikninja]

Having read this thread, it sounds like the challenge the staff faced with regard to WATS was that higher subscription and posting rates diluted the impact of user votes to such a degree that no clear majority could be achieved.

The main criticism of the new system seems to be that it is based on quantity rather than quality.

The main thing in the new system's favor seems to be that alternatives mentioned (including the old system) wouldn't give the votes a degree of impact or penetration great enough to achieve a clear majority, whether based on quantity or quality.

I know nothing with regard to whether this would or even could work, but this is a potential solution that came to mind as I read the thread:

1) Allow threads to be flagged and individual posts to receive a 1 to 5 star rating in terms of perceived subjective quality.

2) Collate thread flags and those ratings into a single score for a thread (perhaps an average.)

3) Take the top five or ten scoring threads in a given period (say, one to three months, depending on how long it takes to reach a critical mass of flags and scores,) and place them in a poll appearing on the site's main page and linked to at the top of every page on ATS.

4) Allow users to vote in said poll for what they subjectively feel to be the most qualitative of those threads for the given period as determined.

This would strike a balance between quantity and quality, allow users to rate individual posts at least in so much as they improve the overall quality of a thread or add to the discussion therein, and would get enough exposure (i.e. wouldn't be as dilute as the old system) to make sure a clear majority was achieved once the given period necessary to achieve such a majority was determined (i.e. you might have to try 1 month, then 2, then 3, etc. until a good balance is struck.)

Feasible? Not feasible? Why or why not? Thoughts?

Personally I think ratings and rankings of any kind defeat the purpose to some extent. We shouldn't be driven by a desire to "score higher" than other members. Nonetheless, it is nice to see people's contributions acknowledged (though they should all be in some small way regardless, probably.) No system is perfect.

Why is a clear majority so important anyway? If the votes are tied, why not just share the award? At least that way individual posts of merit are still rewarded.

[edit on 15/5/07 by Implosion]

I think the problem was that we were having 10-15 members tied. I'm not certain, so don't quote me on that, but something tells me that it was the number being tossed around. If we are having 10+ members tying for WATS, several months in a row, that indicates a flaw in the system. (In my opinion)

If we were to award it to 15 members in one month, it would deteriorate the prestige of the award.

I think anyways.

Originally posted by chissler
If we were to award it to 15 members in one month, it would deteriorate the prestige of the award.

I think anyways.

Well, it's a good point, but still, 15 members out of a membership of over 100,000 is still a damn fine achievement IMO.

Imp, I do agree.

If I were one of those fifteen members who tied, I'd certainly want it awarded to each and every one of us. But if I were one of the other thousands, I think it would look a little bad.

The argument can be made for both sides on this one.

Ultimately, we have what we have and I think we are all gonna need to adjust. I'm a fan of the new system, but I can see why some may feel it is ignoring the needs of some members.

If we really want to congratulate a member on their post, u2u them or find one of their threads and flag that one. May not be as "formal", but it is still a pat on the back.

Case in point. In the middle of a WTC7 thread, I've made more than one very well researched post - posts that took me more than 3-4 hours of reading and searching to create.

Today, someone takes the images that I spent hours searching for, WTC7 images that haven't been seen before as far as I'm aware, very RARE images.. They take the images I linked to, post them in a new thread, and now that thread is multi-flagged, and one of the "active topics" today..

I felt that the images weren't by themselves worthy of a brand new thread, especially since the ongoing discussion in the existing thread was of high quality..

I'm not here to get points or kudos or whatever, but I find it REALLY irritating that someone else takes what took hours of searching to find, posts it in a new thread, and gets credit for it..

That's not a functioning system, that's a broken system. I doubt he would have posted the topic originally as a seperate one, since there was really no need for it, if not to "get attention/flags"..

To me, it's discussion that makes a good thread.. not the original post, in most cases.


[edit on 15-5-2007 by Inannamute]

chissler,

I tend to agree. The new flagging system is a great idea, and it embodies all that we are, and are trying to do. I also flag any and all threads that I wanna see more of, since I think that it's a fine way of recognizing the ideas embodied in the thread. But, as has been pointed out numerous times, there seem to be a few flaws with the system. These are inadvertent I'm sure, but they must be recognized for what they are.

SO has done a wonderful thing with this, and I must commend him on his efforts. I just choose to disagree on how it will impact the ATS community at large.

All of that said, I'm left in the same boat that everyone else is. We all have to live by the same rules that the admins make, as do they. It's the part of this place that keeps me coming back; the superior intellect behind the ingenious ideas that float through here.

Since no amount of discussion will change anything, I hereby step down from antagonizing this issue anymore. My opinions are stated as such, and that should be a testament to my values as a human being, and overall, my adoring admiration for this very board. Don't take this as any kind of "sucking up", as that's not my intent. My intent is merely to state that opinions are just that, opinions. We all know what they say about them. Here's to hoping that this new system brings forth many new and brilliant ideas.

TheBorg

And...

If you don't let the staff know about such "indiscretions" there can't be any appropriate action taken.

Mod Note: ATS Complain/Suggestion Form – Please Use This Link.

Hint, hint...

Well Mirth, we've been debating this with SO for the past few pages, as I'm sure that you're aware. So I just didn't feel that it was necessary to make another meaningless attempt to complain, when that wasn't my aim at all.

I don't want anyone to think that I was dissenting with this because I thought it was a bad idea, because I LOVE it. All that I've been saying is that it fails to address a couple of things, and I even went so far as to suggest a solution to the problem, but it went ignored. This is fine, as it doesn't deter me from looking into other ideas that could further the aims of the boards, which is my main intent.

You guys have created a home for my thoughts that no one else has. For that, I'll stay a loyal member for as long as I'm able, or until the site ceases to exist, whichever comes first.

Again, Thank You.

TheBorg