The New And Improved "Way Above Top Secret"

Wow. Here I'll spend over a week doing deep street image analysis at ground zero, unearth images that show both ground level WTC7 damage AND a FEMA disinfo / coverup job, and get no flags whatsoever after posting them here and nowhere else.

Post up a few paragraphs on the latest status of the 2005 REAL ID Act, and you get 61+ flags. It should be retitled "Way to exploit Above Top Secret" award.

I'm actually starting to miss Myspace

Originally posted by Jakko
Maybe there should be a postrating system besides the flagsystem then Sceptic . . .

Only a qualified physician should be checking your postrate . . . .

What would then happen to individuals who experienced a swollen postrate? Are you recommending surgery, or chemotherapy?


Oh.

Never mind.


Actually, a rating of individual posts might be good, and then each member could only make a rate once. As long as there are not "negative" ratings. It is always painfully obvious who the negativitizers are. Maybe not a whole lot of 'levels," just a simple "good job" button, and that's all.

.

I am with you ignorance..

This new award does not show the great status of the great minds of ATS, and it does not give recognition where it is due.

The best spammer, the best exploiter, the one who can post that lucky 1 paragraph long copy and paste from another site and get 50+ tags..... is the new "Way Above Top Secret Award" winner.

Or as I now refer to it as "Far Below Top Secret Award"

Originally posted by Rockpuck
I am with you ignorance..

I know it's not intentional, but still damn funny!

This new award does not show the great status of the great minds of ATS, and it does not give recognition where it is due.

The best spammer, the best exploiter, the one who can post that lucky 1 paragraph long copy and paste from another site and get 50+ tags..... is the new "Way Above Top Secret Award" winner.

Or as I now refer to it as "Far Below Top Secret Award"

And we've done it this way for how long now? One month? This method produced a clear cut winner. Surely you're not suggesting this month's award winner was unworthy?

Give it a chance to work. I have confidence it'll be tweaked and modified as needed.

Maybe in the meantime everyone can have a little symbol in their avatar that says "Yes, we wuv you and deeply appreciate your presence".

But no, that wouldn't work because it isn't exclusive enough.

Carry on, I'm over it now.

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
Wow. Here I'll spend over a week doing deep street image analysis at ground zero, unearth images that show both ground level WTC7 damage AND a FEMA disinfo / coverup job, and get no flags whatsoever after posting them here and nowhere else.

Um... your thread is the lead story on the site home and forum top-headlines right now with 21 flags. (It was also featured in the weekly update email.)

Flagging works.

Yeah, sorry about that. It was kind of freak actually. I posted it the night before, it was mid-day next day with some posts even... zero flags. Later I noticed it in the flagged list at the top... it picked up 17 flags without any posts and being pushed way down the 9/11 list

Where's the 'foot in mouth' emoticon?

The real id is a actually an important issue in my view, I've just seen so many absurd threads take over like it did, that flags alone without also the vote seems noobish after we used to be able to vote on people for anything and everything deserving.

[edit on 13-5-2007 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

But we've still yet to answer the question of how we're going to recognize individual member's posts in a great thread. Are we going to be able to "flag" good posts as well? Honestly, I think that if a post were to get flagged, that both the person making the post and the person that made the thread should get points, as without the OP, the poster with the great post wouldn't have even thought to post it.

To me, it's a simple matter of fair recognition, even for those that don't like making threads.. This system, however, would entice people to become more involved in the forums, making stellar posts and threads, as they'd be nominated through their good works of literature. But what do I know? I'm just one voice.

TheBorg

I think there should be an option to REMOVE a flag that you have give out. Sometimes you read the first page of a new thread, it looks really good, and you flag it. Only later do you realize that the thread was started by an old ban-lister and the entire thread was a sham, but the thread still has 20 flags.

This thread is a good example.

I say make it so that each member can GIVE flags out, and TAKE their flags back.

[edit on 5/14/2007 by damajikninja]

Now we're talking
That would even act as a degree of "karma" as mentioned previously about that context.

[edit on 14-5-2007 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss]

Originally posted by IgnoranceIsntBlisss
Now we're talking

Thanks for the kudos!

Really though, I can see the genius in SO's idea here... but the flaw is that anyone can thread-spam and get tons of flags. If SO will make it so that we can remove flags we give, this should eliminate the flaw. That way, the ATS community can regulate the spam problem on its own, and make flags REALLY mean something. It really could be the answer to everything!

What do you think?

EDIT: Of course, there would still be the issue of giving special recognition to individual posts. The applause method is in place though, and it does a pretty good job. I have (almost) always gotten applause for a great post I've made. However, the problem is that mods admitedly can't/don't read every post or every thread, resulting in great posts that go un-recognized. The only way to solve that issue is to somehow give the power to the community, like we have done with the Flag system to recognize great threads.

SO...

Great Threads --> Flag System
Works because the individuals in the community are the only ones who read every every thread. Letting the community flag threads they like is the only way to recognize, well, threads that the community likes. The only flaw can be fixed by adding a flag removal function.

Great Posts --> Applause
Doesn't work fully because mods cannot read every post in every thread. Members receiving applause are representative of what the MODs like, not necessarily what the community likes. Also, when a member receives applause, he is the only one that knows about it. Granted the points go up, but it would be nice if the individual post received a little star or something next to it. This would indicate its greatness and give recognition that other members can see and appreciate. The only way to recognize all great posts is to somehow give that kudo-power to the community. ...post flagging??

EDIT: Ok, so how about putting a flag-like system in place to allow the community to give kudos to a single post. As said previously, something like a "Good Job" button.

I also suggest leaving the Applause function in place, to give super-recognition from mods. And I still think putting a little star or something next to the post to indicate its worthiness.

Now I've gone and made a loooong post. Oops. Sorry! I hope you read it all. I'd like to see some replies to everything I said above.

Quick Recap:

Flag system works because it represents the community interest

Fix flag system flaw by adding a flag removal function

Applause is good, but doesnt accredit every great post

Consider post flagging by the community

Consider a small star or graphic to indicate great posts and/or applause

Ninja out.


[edit on 5/14/2007 by damajikninja]

Time for more kudos. You've managed to put everything I've been trying to say into the words that I've been looking for. Nicely done!!!

TheBorg

Originally posted by damajikninja
but the flaw is that anyone can thread-spam and get tons of flags.

Can you show me an example of this? And even if someone were to make dozens of threads with 1 or 2 flags, those wouldn't count. We're only tallying threads with a certain level of flags toward a person's flag-total when calculating the Way Above winner.

Of course, there would still be the issue of giving special recognition to individual posts.

Again... we had that. Again... we had a record-smashing number of votes. Again... we had a record-smashing number of posts tied for the lead. Again... this condition existed for three months.

Fix flag system flaw by adding a flag removal function

I don't understand why it needs to be fixed. I have yet to see any thread with more than 20 flags that doesn't deserve to have that many flags for one reason or another.


We're all adults here (or at least trying to be). ATS is very different from nearly any other active discussion board. Clearly we value quality and desire meaningful contributions over quantity of post count. That being said, we should be thinking more of rewarding great posts with follow-up posts that thank the author for their contribution, and further the discussion with another great post. While votes are nice, they're anonymous... what method of reward could possibly any better than the public recognition of your peers?


And when we have evolved to the point where we have too many great posts to single out an author, the next logical progression of a recognition system is to consider great thread starters. Again, considering the nature of ATS, good posts are certainly valuable, but threads that sparking meaningful discussion is why we're all here.

If you see a post or thread by a member that impress you why not send the member a U2U or post your thoughts on the relevant thread ?

A members compliment is much better then ATS/PTS/BTS points. The flag system has its flaws but I accepted that it is the best system that could have been put in place to replace the WATS vote.

[edit on 14-5-2007 by xpert11]

Act I, Scene VII contains the main dialogue of Macbeth the play. In it, Lady Macbeth convinces her husband to screw his courage to the sticking place and kill his King, launching the rest of the performance on a grand scale. It contains many great lines, and manages to build the drama and tension until it is almost pliable.
To effectively achieve this, Shakespeare eloquently juxtaposes many vividly descriptive words, especially at the beginning of the scene, and shows the audience how Macbeth gradually comes around to his partner’s way of thinking by conforming his language to that of his wife’s, and by lessening the distinction between their sometimes almost verbal assaults on each other.
At the very beginning of the scene, Macbeth himself is considering the positives and not-to-positives of committing regicide. His reasoning goes as thus: ‘If it were done, when ‘tis done, then ‘twere well it were done quickly.’ Also, if he could kill the king and trammel up the consequences of the act with the act itself, then he almost sees the murder as a positive move. But then he begins to think of consequences in other lives . . . bloody instructions . . . return to plague the inventor . . ., and how he may have to repent himself for his crime, and take the punishment. Here the audience is led to believe that Macbeth, left to his own devices, in all likelihood will not commit murder.

Enter Lady Macbeth

The first words out of Macbeth’s mouth do not please his wife, who has by this point obviously made up her mind, and she immediately scolds him, almost accusing him of having an indecisive mind and having green and pale ambition. Will these taunts change Macbeth’s mind?
To ram these insults home, she says ‘Such I account thy love.’ Your ambition is the same as your love; there is none.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Originally posted by damajikninja
but the flaw is that anyone can thread-spam and get tons of flags.

Can you show me an example of this?

Compiling a list... check back later.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
And even if someone were to make dozens of threads with 1 or 2 flags, those wouldn't count. We're only tallying threads with a certain level of flags toward a person's flag-total when calculating the Way Above winner.

Mind telling us what the cut-off point is? I had no idea that a portion of my flags were ineligible.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Originally posted by damajikninja
Of course, there would still be the issue of giving special recognition to individual posts.

Again... we had that. Again... we had a record-smashing number of votes. Again... we had a record-smashing number of posts tied for the lead. Again... this condition existed for three months.

There is a reason no one was handing out WATS... we only had three per month, and everybody wants to save their vote for a super-amazing post. This caused everyone to bypass good posts and wait for one of those rare SUPER-WOW posts.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Originally posted by damajikninja
Fix flag system flaw by adding a flag removal function

I don't understand why it needs to be fixed. I have yet to see any thread with more than 20 flags that doesn't deserve to have that many flags for one reason or another.

I don't understand why its such a big deal to add a flag removal function. You and I as tech guys both know how relatively simple it would be to implement. You have code up now that adds a value to a database. Just put a query string in there that removes that value from the database. Fifteen additional minutes worth of graphics work to make a new "remove" button, and BAM - we got a flag removal function. Much better than just saying, "Aww, to heck with it. I'm sure it won't become a problem." Currently, a flagged thread doesn't necessarily mean its a great thread. I posted an example above of a 15 flag thread that was locked just a few pages later because the OP was a ban-lister. Other members can surely testify that this kind of thing does happen.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
We're all adults here (or at least trying to be).

I certainly hope you are not inferring that I am not being an adult. Maybe you were just speaking in general.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
ATS is very different from nearly any other active discussion board.

Granted. ATS is a great place. I'm proud to be a respected member. Kudos to the amigos for creating this place.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
Clearly we value quality and desire meaningful contributions over quantity of post count. That being said, we should be thinking more of rewarding great posts with follow-up posts that thank the author for their contribution, and further the discussion with another great post.

Haven't you contradicted yourself? We value quality over post count, yet you want to reward quality posts with extraneous posts just to say how great the last post was? Doesn't seem like a logical or post-efficient way to hand out kudos.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
While votes are nice, they're anonymous... what method of reward could possibly any better than the public recognition of your peers?

Well said. Exactly why we need a community-based kudos system for posts.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
And when we have evolved to the point where we have too many great posts to single out an author, the next logical progression of a recognition system is to consider great thread starters.

That hasn't happened yet - that's down the road, man. Let's deal with the here-and-now since you already have a good plan for the future.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
Again, considering the nature of ATS, good posts are certainly valuable, but threads that sparking meaningful discussion is why we're all here.

Valid point, but there are many occasions where a great thread topic is started, and then someone goes and researches the fool out of it and posts a whizz-bang response that is just as worthy of credit.

Skeptic, I certainly don't want to get in a pissing match with an amigo, and I hope you do not take this post as such. I'm just debating some ideas and concepts with you. What you guys have created here is unlike anything else in the world, and you should all be commended for that.

[edit on 5/14/2007 by damajikninja]

GIMME BACK MY WATS ..

Okay - it's been two weeks. I'm frustrated. I'm seeing great posts that I cant' acknowledge in the way that I know I should be able to.

Flags only acknowledge the starter of the thread.
We can't applaud the great POSTS by other members in that thread.

I WANT MY WATS BACK!! (and I want MORE than 3 of them too!! )

Originally posted by damajikninja
If SO will make it so that we can remove flags we give, this should eliminate the flaw. That way, the ATS community can regulate the spam problem on its own, and make flags REALLY mean something. It really could be the answer to everything!

It may remove this flaw that you see, but do you not see the ten others that would be created by it? The drama that would unfold by members ganging up on others, solely because they don't like them? I could name twenty or thirty members that I know despise one another. All of them are great members and contribute daily. But I'm 100% certain that they would remove the flags from threads of those that they disagree with, as would the hundreds and thousands of members that I'm not familiar with.

This system may not be perfect, but it is far greater than the drama that would be created from your proposition.

Originally posted by damajikninja
Great Posts --> Applause
Doesn't work fully because mods cannot read every post in every thread.

Says who? I'm willing to bet that "almost" every post will be read by at least one staff member, at one time or another. Every staff member here has been a member at one time, and we are not just here to govern the boards. We read just as much, if not more, than anybody here. Along with staff, FSME's (Forum Subject Matter Experts) also have some staff capabilities where they can Applaud members as well.

Sometimes an "Applause Worthy" post may fly under the radar, but not very often.

Originally posted by damajikninja
Members receiving applause are representative of what the MODs like, not necessarily what the community likes.

To be blunt, you are wrong. I tend to Applaud members that I disagree with, more than what I agree with. In the last week, I've found myself discussing a few issues quite frequently, which is more than I can say for the last month or two. The members that stepped up and discussed the issue very extensively, even though were in direct opposition of my stance, all received an Applause. Their efforts deserved recognition, and I was happy to give it. Even though I disagreed.

Your statement is also based on the assumption that the staff all agrees on the same thing. The staff of ATS all have one thing in common, a love for this community. Other than that, I'm willing to bet we disagree on most things. Whether 9/11 was an inside job, or an act of terrorism, is Bush a good President, the Iraq War, etc., are all subjects that I can guarantee the staff do not agree on.

Both sides of every coin are well represented on the staff.

Originally posted by damajikninja
Also, when a member receives applause, he is the only one that knows about it. Granted the points go up, but it would be nice if the individual post received a little star or something next to it.

We used to have a system that recognized members in this manner. Our bars began as a dark gray, and through Applauses, they turned a bright red. After awhile, it eventually turned black. Most members liked it, but it was slowing the board down, so it was removed recently. It was a great part of the site, but I'll take speed over eye candy any day.

If you want to know how many Applauses a member has, check their profile. Other than that, I don't really see the need for everyone to know who was Applauded for what.

Originally posted by damajikninja
The only way to recognize all great posts is to somehow give that kudo-power to the community. ...post flagging??

Post Flagging. Exactly. Not only does it come with the power to reward a member with WATS, it also allows members to dictate what new members coming to the site will see. Top flagged threads are the first items that hundreds of thousands of visitors will see instantaneously. Thats a big deal if you ask me.

Originally posted by damajikninja
EDIT: Ok, so how about putting a flag-like system in place to allow the community to give kudos to a single post. As said previously, something like a "Good Job" button.

A good suggestion.

Originally posted by damajikninja
I also suggest leaving the Applause function in place, to give super-recognition from mods. And I still think putting a little star or something next to the post to indicate its worthiness.

If I Applaud a post, does that indicate that it is worthy? Why should the opinion of one staff member dicatate any worthiness? If a post is not Applauded, does that mean it is not worthy? We all have varying opinions, so lets make our own minds up to what is, and is not, "worthy".

I only have one complaint about the flagging having (as a new member) adapted quite easily from WATS which I always forgot to use.

It would be nice to see the thread bumped each time it was flagged - I often use the flag even if I haven't posted in the thread because I think it is a quality discussion or to recommend it to others. It's futile if the thread is two hours or even two days old and keeps on sinking. I find this a bit frustrating.

Just a thought.

Originally posted by chissler

Originally posted by damajikninja
If SO will make it so that we can remove flags we give, this should eliminate the flaw. That way, the ATS community can regulate the spam problem on its own, and make flags REALLY mean something. It really could be the answer to everything!

It may remove this flaw that you see, but do you not see the ten others that would be created by it? The drama that would unfold by members ganging up on others, solely because they don't like them? *snip*
This system may not be perfect, but it is far greater than the drama that would be created from your proposition.

I believe you misunderstood what I was proposing. I do not condone the idea of allowing anyone to remove any flag. Rather, I am suggesting that members should have the ability to take back any flag that they have given. This does not cause any drama, since the only flag they would be able to touch would be their own.

Originally posted by chissler

Originally posted by damajikninja
Great Posts --> Applause
Doesn't work fully because mods cannot read every post in every thread.

Says who? I'm willing to bet that "almost" every post will be read by at least one staff member, at one time or another.

Well, Majic may disagree with you. I do not want to put words in Majic's mouth, but here is a quote:

Originally posted by Majic on 3/3/2007 @ 01:54 PM (ID:2999909, Post Number: 2,900,019)
*snip*
It's easy to assume that everything posted to every public thread is immediately seen by all members of the staff, as if we're a sort of "choir invisible" privy to everything that happens on ATS the moment it happens.
Well, we're not. :shk:
Just like all other members (except for the Zeta Reticuloids, Reptilians, cryptids, spooks, zombies and AI constructs among us), we're only human, and we can only read so much.

Don't get me wrong: we spend most of our time reading. However, we can't read everything and don't claim to be able to.
*snip*
Remember: mods are not omniscient, omnipotent nor omnipresent.
*snip*

Moving on...

Originally posted by chissler

Originally posted by damajikninja
Members receiving applause are representative of what the MODs like, not necessarily what the community likes.

To be blunt, you are wrong. I tend to Applaud members that I disagree with, more than what I agree with.

Thanks for your blunt opinion. Regardless of your agreement/disagreement with a poster, the applause still only comes from MODs, and is therefore representative of what MODs individualy deem as good posts. Thats all I was getting at; not a gripe on MODs.

Originally posted by chisslerYour statement is also based on the assumption that the staff all agrees on the same thing. The staff of ATS all have one thing in common, a love for this community. Other than that, I'm willing to bet we disagree on most things.

Actually, you are assuming that I think this way. In truth, I realize that the MODs grant applause based on their own individual judgement, not a checklist.

Originally posted by chisslerBoth sides of every coin are well represented on the staff.

Agreed. We have an excellent staff here at ATS.

Originally posted by chissler

Originally posted by damajikninja
Also, when a member receives applause, he is the only one that knows about it. Granted the points go up, but it would be nice if the individual post received a little star or something next to it.

We used to have a system that recognized members in this manner. *snip* Most members liked it, but it was slowing the board down, so it was removed recently. It was a great part of the site, but I'll take speed over eye candy any day.

Valid point. If this is the case, then it's not a good trade-off, agreed.

Originally posted by chissler

Originally posted by damajikninja
The only way to recognize all great posts is to somehow give that kudo-power to the community. ...post flagging??

Post Flagging. Exactly. Not only does it come with the power to reward a member with WATS, it also allows members to dictate what new members coming to the site will see. Top flagged threads are the first items that hundreds of thousands of visitors will see instantaneously. Thats a big deal if you ask me.

I'm a bit confused here - I was talking about post flagging... are you talking about thread flagging? I agree that the flagging system is genius, and was suggesting the idea of applying it to individual posts. Can you clarify your words here for me?

Originally posted by chissler

Originally posted by damajikninja
I also suggest leaving the Applause function in place, to give super-recognition from mods. And I still think putting a little star or something next to the post to indicate its worthiness.

If I Applaud a post, does that indicate that it is worthy? Why should the opinion of one staff member dicatate any worthiness? If a post is not Applauded, does that mean it is not worthy? We all have varying opinions, so lets make our own minds up to what is, and is not, "worthy".

I believe you may have misinterpreted my choice of words. Let me clarify: When I said "worthiness", I was referring to the quality of a good post that is "worthy" of being given applause. Thats all.

Originally posted by xpert11
If you see a post or thread by a member that impress you why not send the member a U2U or post your thoughts on the relevant thread ?

The problem with this is its to much work and doesn't always feel appropriate. What would you rather do, click on a wee thumbs up icon on the persons post or go to the trouble of clicking on the sendU2U link, entering a subject, copying the link to the individual post then saying "good post", that just seams a bit pointless to me.

And if we are to just U2U someone for a good post why not do the exact same for topic starters?

You also have to take into consideration not everyone is a topic starter, some people just like to comment, I start the occasional topic but most of the time I just post in other people topics, now theres no actual incentive to reply to a topic all the incentive is in topic starting and that will eventually lead to spam imo.