Is the time for secession here?

Thanks Kelldor. I just decided to join there myself! We need to return to the Constitution. We need to remove anyone in office who has a problem with using that document. And we need to remove those judges who twist and distort it to fit the agenda of big business and the power brokers.

Long Live The Constitution!!!!!

Well, technically it IS outdated. That's not a bad thing. It's merely the slow lumbering of time that has detracted from the true intents of the document that was so eloquently put together so many years ago. Well, time and the corrupt government that seems to exercise control over manipulating it.

Being outdated simply means that it needs some revisions, which any document that has any hopes of standing up to the tests of time will have to undergo.

And that doesn't mean that I don't love America just because I think that the Constitution is outdated. It's a statement of fact that it needs at least a modernizing. The initiative mentioned a few posts back is a great way to enact this, I think.

TheBorg

I drive an '83 chevy pickup, rebuilt in a lot of places, but a fine and serviceable vehicle. Upkeep and repairs are the key. Our Constitution only needs a few minor touches as well. Because it was designed in the horse and buggy era, these new roads we travel leave it in a position to be ruined through the neglect of our leaders.

Jefferson said that a revolution was needed every so often, and upgrading the Constitution is one form of that. The base of the word revolution and revitalize are the same. We do not need to scrape that grand old lady, we need to strengthen her.

Well said Borg.

[Edited by NGC for left out word.]

[edit on 17-5-2007 by NGC2736]

How can there be secession without nationalism, or states for that matter? The United States has become a nation with diversity but not multiple nationalities. Therefore the only possible division in the United States is civil war ... not secession.

It's always possible for factions to try and fight for power of a government but it is now impossible that these factions would fight for the sovereignty of some state since there is no national identity.

In 1860 the Southern States still had individual national identities.

I'd also like to point out that the Confederates hated the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Confederates also despised Thomas Jefferson whom they lauded just 20 years before. The South under-went a revision of history between the years 1830 and 1860 due to elitists who wanted to keep the status quo. The Civil War was their power-play and had VERY VERY little to do with the defense of any rights.

It was all about conflict of elites.

Southern Slave owning elites not wanting to lose their authority to industrial elites of the north.

This is evident through-out the era as is seen in the Southern rejection of monies to build railroads because these railroads would then be owned by Northerners.

Technally outdated?! Buzzz wrong. Milk gets out dated- bread gets outdated-Shall I go on?

The U.S. Constitution is a historical document thats older then you and me. It is a priceless treasure and should be valued as such. We should have higher respect for the Constitution then calling it outdated or just a piece of paper. It is the back bone of America. And as long a we tinker with it adding more tinks to it it will soon crumble. What right do we have of calling the Constitution a piece of paper or calling it outdated? Borg please don't listen to that nonsense.

This makes my blood boil- that some of our elected officals have little regards anymore for the Constitution. We have to stand up for that. Adding a few admendments to the Constitution over time I think is ok. As long as they don't majorly change it. You are your own person, you decide what you do. Our government is in the wrong not us. As if we keep falling in their traps very soon we won't have any rights at all.

Question? With the USA Patriot Act now into play, did that make the Constitution obsolete?

I will never call it outdated nor ever call the Constitution a piece of paper.

www.constitutionparty.com...

www.ronpaul2008.com...

It seems like it's time for something....

I get frustrated that we talk and talk and talk and yes this and that is bad, but nobody is doing anything about it but talking and talking and talking.

I think the reason that nobody does anything is because I think most people are of the opinion that the nation could be saved if we simply make the necessary changes.

Or that the problems we have will simply just go away.

Or that the legal system could be used to correct the problems.

Initiating a civil war would not be a solution to the problems that we have. How can we be critical of the Bush war if we think war will solve our problems.

Separating from the nation is a possible answer, but the geographic constraints make it difficult to stay protected from a government that would no doubt violently reciprocate.

The only solution I can see would be going to another country to live. But I think that decision should be made soon before other countries keep us from doing that.

Don't give up hope we have to keep talking for others to hear us.

Here's a poll on the Constitutional website.
www.constitutionparty.com...

I got a little cofused on what party Dr. Ron Paul was- He's a Republican and he's pro-life. And his issues are positive. Just not gonna tell my aunt- She's a democrat.










[edit on 5/17/2007 by Leyla]

Yes, it's outdated, and it is so for several reasons. One of those reasons is times change. The Constitution can't change with the times unless people adapt it along the way, which is why the Founders left We the People with the 10th Amendment, which states thus:


Courtesy of Cornell University.

They foresaw our current plight, and built in a solution, through the form of the amendment process, to insure that we'd have a way to trump any injustices being done to us by those that we elected to "serve" us. They also added in the clause above that effectively makes it our duty to do so when we deem it necessary. I've never stated that these documents were anything BUT genius in design, but they are outdated because they don't adequately handle the current political ebbs and flows that are permeating every facet of our existence. Jefferson goes into a bit of a rant on this too, which I will now give some excerpts of:



Courtesy of the University of Virginia.

Having said this, I want to again make it clear that I never intended anyone to think that I somehow thought that there was anything wrong with the Constitution's premises. God forbid I ever say something like that. All that I was, and still am saying, is that there is a need to update it a little bit. It's time to modernize it. It's what Thomas Jefferson would have done long ago. If he saw the country in the position it finds itself in today, what do you think his reaction would be?

As always, let me know what you think.

TheBorg

I see this going into a Yes it is!! No its not!! argument. I thought thats what the government was doing all this time adding new admendments to it.

Dosen't matter how old the Constitution is, its still our backbone. Just please don't get me started about these GOP bozo's. Check the Ron Paul thread in the 9-11 section.

I don't want to argue about it. What this forum is to me is a place to hammer out ideas in an organized fashion, so that I may better present them when the time comes for me to do so.



Agreed on all statements here. We see eye to eye mostly. We just disagree on the concept of it being outdated is all. If that's all that we disagree on, then we'll be well off. I look forward to talking about this more if you'd like.

TheBorg

I was reading on the Ron Paul Forums and saw someone mentioning that we should join the republican party to vote for Ron Paul in primaries. Each state has different rules, and each party within each state has different rules too. I know in Washington, in the primaries or caucus or whatever it is, you have to be registered to a party to vote and then you must stay within that party for all your votes (what ever happened to "best person for the job"?). We used to have more freedom, but both parties sued and won a couple years ago In the general election though you are not required to vote by party.

I'm hoping to have my civil rights restored soon, and then I'll register for Republican just to make sure I can vote for Ron Paul in the primary, but if he doesn't get the nomination, I will quit and go Constitution party, and encourage everyone else to do so.

If you have any questions about your voting laws in the primaries in your state, look up your secretary of state's name with "contact" by it in your search bar, and ask 'em. I did and got a response the next day so I could figure out how to make sure I could vote for Ron Paul in the primary.

I thought in light of the imminent decision on whether the citizens of this failed republic have the right to bear arms, I should give my old thread a bump.

Tomorrow, (or today depending on your time zone), the imperialist stooges in black robes will once again draw upon their vast arrogance to interpret the document that this Republic was founded upon. Over the course of the last century, these lifetime appointed charlatans have decided the fate of this once great nation, and tomorrow I fear that they will destroy its' last defense the people have to protect it. I am of course speaking of the second amendment. Tomorrow these paltry nine will decide if we the people are deemed under the Constitution to have the right as a populace to defend ourselves against outside invaders, marauding subhuman criminals and yes, the very government itself that has the arrogance to dare strip this once great nation of the right to self defense against all threats foreign and domestic. I as a simple citizen of the Republic and a descendant of Confederates, am shocked that we as a nation of free people have fallen to this state of despotism.

I will not devolve this thread into a "gun" rant. My intentions are to merely broach the subject once again that I believe it is time as sovereign states to
reassess the original agreement of these "United""States. The very fact that the subject of whether the second amendment is Constitutional or not in certain areas like D.C and NYC is Orwellian. How could we deny the rights to people within our country to carry legal firearms to defend their families, while at the same time allowing it for the rest of the country? I ask you this, would it be logical to deny the people of NYC or D.C. the right to the 1st amendment? Then why is it logical to deprive them of the 2nd amendment?
I fear that these charlatans will attempt to declare that the 2nd amendment does not apply to the common citizen and will therefore decide that as the last "free" nation on Earth who allows its' voting populace to own firearms, that it is best for all of us to proceed to the nearest collection center and lay down our weapons. Well I for one have a slight problem with that, as I am sure a vast amount of my fellow citizens do as well. What these arrogant elitists fail to recognize is that the very attempt to seize the lawfully owned firearms of this Republic will be met with a slaughter unseen on domestic soil since the 1860's. I am afraid they will lack the resources in manpower within days to render unto Caesar what is due him.

If they decide foolishly tomorrow, this is the very spark that will change the face of this country.

[edit on 26-6-2008 by shai hulud]

It is far past time for secession.

The U.S. needs to be balkanized in order to avoid complete catastrophe.

Let the jesus freaks have the south, the fruits and nuts have California, the morons and socialists can take the northeast, and freedom loving people can have the upper midwest and the great plains.

reply to post by slackerwire

---

Agreed slackerwire. We are already balkanized to an extent, but full reassessment of the 'Union" is in order. I fear you are correct in your assumption that separation to preserve cultures extant to certain areas is the only way that the people of this nation will continue to exist without bloodshed. I for one have zero in common with people from certain parts of this country, especially when they spit on the very value system that holds society together.

Oh yeah, by the way, not all of us in "bible thumping territory" are insane. I am a Southerner, but also an independent thinker.


[edit on 26-6-2008 by shai hulud]

[edit on 26-6-2008 by shai hulud]

Just thought I might bump this thread in light of the recent situations at hand. Just curious about some opinions either way on a VERY old subject.

Oh come on. didn't you see what happened when wall street's elevator lost a cable? The American people have always had the reins of power. It's called "your money in the bank". When people get tired of these banks hoarding money and all the govt. bs behind it, they just might pull their cash and make wall street look like a cake walk. You have more power than you realize, America.

"So often times it happens
That we live our lives in chains
And we never even know we have the key"

---The Eagles

As I right this, I look above and see peering down on me the overbearing and ominous "The Issue of "Hate Speech" On AboveTopSecret.com". Hate speech.....? I am at a quandary that the very forum that ALL ideas are open to discussion in a civil and honorable forum. My thread was about secession by states that would pass through on a STATE legislative vote, a split from the beast that is the Federal Government. I see now this will never occur without EXTREME bloodshed. Hate Speech....what have we as a Republic come to. The very forum that WE as free thinkers are now regulated by "Hate Speech"? The first amendment....just a memory now. God forbid someone, somewhere is offended.

In the years to come, all of you that have forgotten what this country was founded on, will realize that in this plane of existence what the true nature of freedom and self/family preservation is.....sacrifice. We as a "nation" will endure unimaginable hardships that we cannot fathom. I feel for the weak, old but not the youth. The easy route is just that....easy. The hardships of the ones that came before must never be forgotten, ever. Freedom is not free.

As we spiral into this One World Order, we will split as a nation. It will be along cultural, racial, economic and historical lines. The states are SOVEREIGN, and this nation is and has always been divided. This entity, both parties and either McCain or Obama have no respect for the Constitution. All of them.

So.. What are we to do? I as a free citizen...in an occupied territory, and by God's grace(I am a pagan an heathen by lifestyle, but I will die by the Cross, Not narrow minded bible thumping idiocy..personal choice ...it is black and white..not race but spiritual) , I have but one thing to say to this filth ridden world and the regime 5th column that has wiped their ass with the Constitution for the last 148 yrs......GIVE THEM THE BAYONET!

My friends, foes and the ones who I have met on common ground, this shall be my last post. This has been an extreme education, as well as a discovery of enlightenment on so many topics. I wish you all well and may you all find peace and glory in your own way.

When their boot is on your throat, you have nothing to lose.

Sláinte Mhath! Deo Vindice!

Godspeed and long live FREEDOM!...been a pleasure.


[edit on 11-2-2009 by shai hulud]