Russians Riot in Tallin, Estonia

Transfer of a WW2 Soviet statue has sparked widespread riots and fighting between the russian minority of estonia and ethnic estonians.

The Russian government says moving the memorial would be an insult to the soldiers who died during World War II.

But Estonia says it poses a risk as it has been the scene of clashes between Estonians and Russian nationalists.

Many Estonians see the bronze statue of a Soviet soldier, erected in 1947 in the centre of Tallinn, as a reminder of nearly 50 years of Soviet occupation.

BBC Story

Russian officials are coneniently forgetting that the Red Army invaded Sovreign Estonia at 1939 and Germany then occupied and occupied Estonia, so how on earth should Estonians be happy of "Soviet Liberation"?
I hope current Russian leadership has courage to finally admit that Soviet Union committed unlaful invasions during the ww2 and stop masking those as a fight against facism.

[edit on 27-4-2007 by northwolf]

Russian parliament has called for Putin to cut all diplomatic connections between Russia and Estonia in a protest against "Dishonoring Heroes and The Victory of the WW2"

These demands make my blood boil as it's common knowledge that Baltic countries were forcifully annexed to Soviet Union way before the German occupation, making any connections to defeating facism invalid.

Ps. Estonian official are moving the statue and possible bodies around it to a military graveyard and the dead will be buried with full honours.

There were some heavy fighting last night as well. I heard on the radio that at least five protesters have died.

I have found no information on new fatalities, YLE is just reporting about injuries and hundreds of arrests.

Both Finnish and Latvian governments have stated that this is an internal Estonian afair and that no other country should get involved (Russia)

Was is a statue of Stalin? Was it the the statue of KGB?

For God's sake- it is a statue to soldiers. Forget Stalin- if you think everyone who is burried at that grave fought and died for Stalin you are deeply deeply disillusioned. And if you think Estonia or Latvia saw more hardships under the Sovier Union era than under the Nazi occupation you are also disillusioned.

The soldiers that fought and died weren't Stalin's henchmen. They fought back the NAZI aggression against all of Europe. They were Russians, Ukrainians, Estonians, Latvians, Georgians, Belorusians... What the hell does Stalin's twisted politics have to do with that? What these people fought for was one thing, what Stalin decided to do after was a different thing. In fact that statue mentioned nothing about Russia or Stalin. It was the combined effort of the people to rid Eastern Europe of Nazism. The Estonians are desecrating their own statue, and it is a shameful thing.

I hold nothing against Estonians removing statues of Stalin, communism symbols, or anything else they want. But to desecrate the gravesite of soldiers like this this acting like damn barbarians, and honestly it is only making them look like ***holes to the whole world. If you do not believe that Russian and Soviet soldiers played a major role in liberating Europe from Nazi aggression- then I shouldn't even be arguing with you. Or maybe Estonians would rather prefer to have been occupied by Hitler and be forced to work as slaves under the master race instead. Soviet Union never treated them as slaves, but as equal citizens under the forced central leadership, of which neither them nor anyone else in Soviet Union had a say.


And when did the Russian leadership deny that SOVIET UNION unlawfully occupied countries? It doesn't deny this, however it does recognize that the Russian people also suffered from the likes of Stalin no less than others did (don't forget that he was Georgian). And why does Russia even have to appologize for it? It is no longer the same country, same government, or same political idealogy. Don't forget- Russia has a revolution in the 90's as well. Maybe Georgia should appologize for Stalin.

maloy;

Estonia was occupied by Soviet troops in June 1940, as a consequence of the secret amendment to the August 1939 Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact between the Soviet Union and National Socialist Germany. Estonia was formally annexed by the Soviet Union in August 1940 as the Estonian SSR. Many of the country's political and intellectual leaders were killed or deported to remote areas of the USSR by the Soviet authorities during 1940 to 1941. The repressions also included actions taken against thousands of ordinary people. When the German Operation Barbarossa started against the Soviet Union, thousands of young Estonian men were forcibly drafted into the Red Army. Hundreds of political prisoners, whom the retreating Soviets had no time to move, were killed. The country was occupied by Germany from 1941 to 1944 and many Estonians joined the German Armed Forces. Soviet forces reconquered Estonia after fierce battles in the northeast of the country on the Narva river and on the Tannenberg Line (Sinimäed). In the face of imminent re-occupation by the Red Army, tens of thousands of people chose to either retreat together with the Germans or flee the country to Finland or Sweden

This pretty much sums up my point. Nazis were evil and most of the world hated them, but they treated some nations way better than USSR ever did. And if WW2 was all about defeating Nazis, could you tell me why did USSR try so hard to invade Finland?

Originally posted by maloy
Was is a statue of Stalin? Was it the the statue of KGB?

For God's sake- it is a statue to soldiers. Forget Stalin- if you think everyone who is burried at that grave fought and died for Stalin you are deeply deeply disillusioned. And if you think Estonia or Latvia saw more hardships under the Sovier Union era than under the Nazi occupation you are also disillusioned.

...

Well, if someone is disillusioned, than it will be only you. I'm from Lithuania and I have some estonians coleges in my work, so I really know what what happening there in estonia and what it means to have statues in public place from soviet times.
Actually the whole riot in Tallinn is bought by russian politics side. At first it was organized - there was selected people, paid them to make a first wave of riot. Now they some of them are paid 5 euros for hour, others just make some joy of destruction.
And now about statue - it was simple statue, actually nobody cares about that statue, except that sometimes there was gathering people to drink vodka. And that statue will be not destroyed, it will be placed to other location - where is here barbaric move?
Ok, you said that soviets freed baltic states from nazis? for god sake, wake up. Soviets ocupied baltic states at first, and only then nazis came to baltic states. And actually nazis treated our people much better than soviets did. You said that soviets give us freedom - you call it freedom? When people was always spied by kgb, when you don't have a freedom of speach, when you cant freely travel out of SSSR border.

By the way - don't think that russians are bad people, because mostly of them are very kind and really nice people.

The only reason Nazi's treated some Eastern European better was because they needed all the help they could get to defeat Russia. They could not care less about them besides this, and if Russia did fall back and never regain momentum, the Nazi's would have killed off the Jewish population of all these countries and then turn the entire countries into slave states. Sure some morons saw Nazi's as liberators. Same morons from Estonia and Ukraine and Romania that helped the SS murder Jews and kill Soviet partisans. Same morons that thought that if they help Nazi's defeat Russia they would be granted freedom.

I understand it is the trend in Eastern Europe now to blame everything on Russia. It is convenient, it unites your country's nationalists, and each time you do it US and NATO is there to pat you on the back and give you a bone. But what they don't seem to realize is that they are simply being exploited by US and NATO, using the common hated denominator- Russia.

And about the rioters- it is a disgrace and idiocy. Those Russians that started it are no better than other nationalist/supremacy groups, and I understand why Estonia would not be thrilled about them. I don't know who started it or for what political reasons, but I think this has less to do with the statue than with exploiting local Russian interests for someone's political gain (and don't say Putin).

Either way, to dig up graves of people who died fighting and rebury them I find barbarous. Keep it at least as part of history; history which you can not deny. Even if you don't agree with it or with what they did- how is it gonna help if you remove the gravesites?

The gravesites will be re-located into a proper cemetary, most likely an orthodox one and the bodies will be buried with full honours. I don't think that's barbarous, same thing is done for example on several sites in Karelia, where Finnish who were buried on field are no returned to our own soil.

And when you call people morons, think twice on what information was available when they made their choises. And allso remember that in '39, most estonians still remembered the Tsars rule, so their fear on Russia was based on very real and solid memories.


Slight Off Topic:
And still if the ultimate goal of the red army during WW2 was to destroy facism, why did you see fit to attack Finland in '39, when we were a democratic and un-allied country? (only alliance was a common defencive naval strategy with Estonia, that Soviets knew nothing about at the time)

It is generally agreed that Russia suffered the greatest territorial losses after WWI, despite having been on the victors' side through most of the war. Of course the lost territory was not really Russia, but imperial possesions, but nonetheless many in Russia felt betrayed. Also you need to consider that Britain, France and others still held on to their imperial possesions without any problems. During the Russian revolution the communists were not concerned about this in short-term, but became concerned later on with all of the separations. In fact- if it wasn't for the communist revolution, neither Finland nor the Baltics would have had their freedom in the early 1900's to begin with. Whether right or wrong, the communist leadership felt that they needed to return Soviet Union to the same size as the Russian empire had been. This was the reason for attack on Finland and other actions, such as occupation of Baltics in 1939.

But Nazi Germany was a whole different threat, and there is no denying of their intentions regarding Eastern Europe and the genocide. Does Estonia seriously wish it had continued to be occupied by Nazi Germany?

By the way, where are they planning to take these graves and the monument? They dug them up, threw what was there in the back of some truck, and left.

Also, if I find a grave of someone whom I find offensive at a local cemetary, can I dig up their grave and tomb stone, throw it in the back of the truck, and put it in a more proper place- say next to my outhouse or at the bottom of the lake?

Did the Estonians or those who support the Estonians on this issue ever consider that that memorial and the graves may be meaningful to many people who live in Estonia- and there are many? Maybe to them it's like digging up their family members. Messing with people's graves is a serious matter, and should never happen unless both sides agree. I don't care if you want to dig up Stalin or whoever, but these were just soldiers.


And by the way- it was the Russian protesters that died. Even BBC stated about how local police were dragging away injured protestors. You know what- I think Estonian Prime Minister is back in the communist era- beating up protestors... In fact I think he is becoming too authoritative. In fact I feel threatened by Estonia and their cold war tactics. I think the West should boycott Estonia.

...hey it worked when everyone blamed Putin for putting an end to protests recently. I thought I'd give it a try.

[edit on 28-4-2007 by maloy]

sir, i think you are really illusioned.

One russian rioter died, stabbed probably by another rioter.
The statue will be RELOCATED to a MILITARY CEMETARY.
The remains will be exhumed with full honour, with both orthodox and lutheran services.
Yes, the statue is to commemorate dead soldiers, but we cant allow neo-communists to drink vodka at the statue sprouting Soviet flags, singing the soviet anthem, and cursing our Free Estonia into hell.

How does this compare to what happened in France to UK gravesites:

SKY News

Originally posted by ch1le
Yes, the statue is to commemorate dead soldiers, but we cant allow neo-communists to drink vodka at the statue sprouting Soviet flags, singing the soviet anthem, and cursing our Free Estonia into hell.

These neo communists are your own citizens, and you need to realize this in order to move forward as an independent nation. Yes it's a problem, but a problem that is not being dealt with. Estonia and other Baltics treat this group of people, which is actually pretty sizeable, as outsiders. Because they are treated as outsiders they act such. Now it may be the other way around, but how is that helping things? They live in Estonia, they will live in Estonia, and now that Estonia is free and independent it has to prudently deal with the situation- which it is not doing.

I know for a fact that some ethinic Estonians as well as other Baltic nationals believe that they lived better under the Communist era- I am talking about the late communist era not the Stalin era. In fact a good part of the rioters were ethnic Estonians. What BBC and others are making it seem like is that ALL Estonians hate Soviet Union, and the only "rioters" are Russians. This is simply false and misleading.

And guess what- if Estonia bans these types of protests or pro-Soviet get togethers at cemeteries, and bans communists left and right- how are they better than other dictatorships or you very own bets friend- Putin?

These people admire Soviet Union and the good that came from it- and don't say that nothing good came from it. As such, they hold great respect to the fallen soldiers who beat back the Nazi forces, and this monument is of great importance to them. And by removing it, even if only to relocate, they still see it sheer disrespect.


Go to some country- any country with a sizeable minority- US (Latinos, Blacks), Canada (French)... and try to remove the gravesite which is of great importance to this minority. No matter what you think of the minority or what they support, you will no doubt anger them to a great extent. Estonia must realize that it will have to live together with the pro-Soviet people, or resort to authoritative tactics and throw them out and ban their gatherings- in which case it would be a good case of hypocricy.

Nice thread going on here guys.

Just to make a point here, it is interesting and very useful to understand the history to see the bigger picture, but this riot had by no means anything to do (or had extremely little to do) with relocating the statue or the value of the statue for some people. But I would not want to repeat what has been already said earlier in this thread.

Estonia has been a very liberal society, this claim backed by many international surveys, and having peaceful demonstrations would be a normal part of any democracy. Estonia has made some mistakes integrating Russians into the society indeed, but no-one has taken away any opportunities from Russians or treated them as outsiders. Having a liberal democracy means that you have opportunities and it is the choice of yourself whether to use them or not - having opportunities to raise a family, make a career, and live a satisfying life are all present in Estonia for all its citizens.

This was not a peaceful demonstration - it was trashing of shops, stealing, attacking people. Did you also know that some of the paramedics that came to help were attacked? This is simply unbelievable and while it might be ok for ethnic Russian people and their culture, this is simply intolerable for any Estonian nor any other westener I believe.

There is nothing that can really justify vandalism and stealing just for the sake of it. The faces of Russian rioters stepping out from broken windows of shops with a bottle of vodka and a box of cigarettes in one hand, tampons for the wife in another - they say it all – this is plain robbery.

Russian people need to learn that they are not living in the Soviet Russia anymore. They are living in Estonia. They are living in the European Union, which is part of the western cultural room - and it is our country – i.e country of all the people living here. All citizens have to obey the law and can exercise their natural rights which are present in this society – freedom of speech, religion and various others rights. This society is very different from “mother” Russia in these matters, as there is hardly any democracy left there. Destroying the property of others, not obeying the law, attacking policemen and paramedics is not the way things are done in Estonia.

By the way, the person who lost his life during the riot, according to the latest evidence was killed by his fellow protesters (and let me say it is not of much of a surprise as stabbing is not too uncommon between Russians when looking at the crime scene in Estonia generally), but as no suspects have been arrested yet so I would not comment further.

Having said all of this, I would like to believe there are many very nice people among the Russians in Estonia, who feel as embarrassed about the rioters as I do.

Latest developements:
-Russian Parliamentary delegation is demanding that Estonian goverment sto resign because of the recent riots. I find thii outrageous, do those duma members still think that they are living in soviet union. It's none of Russias business to interfere with internal politics of an independent country.

-The Statue will is being re-erected to it's new location, and it will be revealed 8th of may.

You are right- Russia shouldn't interfere in this at all.

In fact what the parliament officials stated was not even meant for Estonia or anyone. Just like any politicians anywhere in the world they are trying to get karma points with the voters and the people. I wouldn't take it too seriously.

Some updates:
-Estonian Embassy in Moscow is still under siege by rioters.
-Swedish ambassadors car was attacked and vandalized
-Estion ambassador was attacked at a press conference
-Estonian Embassy in Finland was vandalized
-Russian embasssy in Sweden was stoned
Allso Estonian Government has issued a statemet about WW2 in Estonia


Allso Russian UN ambassador is demanding that UN should codemn Estonian actions that "deface the victory over facism"

Russian media is still going and calling Estonia a Facist country and falsely accusing Estonian government as Facists.

[edit on 3-5-2007 by northwolf]

The Swedes are in. When are the Finns joining the fun?

You should ask Kreml, when they will start to apply their bully tactics to Finland. Some parliamentary advisor of Duma stated that Finland should stay away from NATO or else... So it may get dirty in Northern Europe.

And a Swedish ex-GRU-colonel warned Finland and Sweden that Russia may be an immediate military threat.