Slavery. I Have Questions.

Slavery. It's a fact. It happened. One of the bloodiest wars in American history was fought to abolish it. An American President was assasinated due in part to his wanting to end slavery.

Men, women and children were bought and sold like livestock. Families were callously torn apart. Slaves were not considered human. They were not allowed any freedoms. Everything in their lives was dictated to them. Slaves were beaten, maimed and killed for any reason their owner deemed worthy. If a man, woman, or child fell ill, little or nothing was done to help. If a slave was maimed, and deemed unable to carry out their tasks, they may be killed. Female slaves often times were a Harem for their owners. A slave woman was raped, and her slave husband could not do so much as even utter a single word. A slave couples children being taken away and sold to someone else, and the couple can do absolutely nothing. I literally can't imagine.

Freedom. I take freedom for granted every single day, yet men were whipped, beaten, and died trying to do nothing more than taste freedom. We bitch, moan, and complain about all of our freedoms being taken away. Perspective check.

It may very well be the worst thing in American History.

Slavery. It happened.

Why is slavery in many instances a dark secret? I'll give one example.

Disney's "Song of the South" is banned in the US. Why? Because many of the characters are slaves. As a kid I saw this movie, and was enchanted with Uncle Remus, Brer rabbit, Brer bear, Brer Fox and the many other characters. Hell, even Disneys famous and very recognizable theme song is "Zipadee doo daa". Yes, I know that there were stories told by Uncle Remus in Song of the South, like "Tar Baby". It was told in a magical fashion, and I as well as all my friends who saw it, never even once made a correlation to African Americans.

For the Tar Baby Story look Tar Baby

Now different entities, the latest one being the University of Virginia, are apologizing for slavery. Look I'm not against anyone apologizing, but what does this accomplish? Does it really heal anything?

Look, I know that this may seem politically incorrect. I go on record as saying that I think that slavery was absolutely agregious. I can find humor in anything, but not on this issue. I truly question why, and am not afraid to ask the questions. I would love to get a perspective from other members about this.

Originally posted by lombozo
Slavery. It's a fact. It happened. One of the bloodiest wars in American history was fought to abolish it. An American President was assasinated due in part to his wanting to end slavery.

Funny, I thought the Civil War was about State right's, not slavery....

Originally posted by lombozo
It may very well be the worst thing in American History.

It's not an American only phenonemon and it continues to this day. In fact, slavery has been around since the dawn of human history and not one group of people is either responsible or is alone in suffering at its hands.

You do know that North African slavers were plying European coasts for centuries up until the 1800's, right?

If anyone is responsible for the slave trade of the 18th/19th Centuries, it is the Africans themselves. We didn't go there and capture them, we just bought them from an already thriving market.. A market that still exists to this day in the very areas we bought slaves from centuries ago.

Originally posted by lombozo
Slavery. It happened.

It still happens.

Originally posted by lombozo
Now different entities, the latest one being the University of Virginia, are apologizing for slavery. Look I'm not against anyone apologizing, but what does this accomplish? Does it really heal anything?

No. It's just a way of getting someone to admit liability, so the flood gates can open for modern day blacks to get some free money.

Perhaps today's African descendants should look to those who still reside in Africa. Logic dictates that those that remain must have been the victorious tribes that took the others as slaves, sold them and took their land.

They don't ask for an "apology" off them though, do they?

Oh no.... It's all the white mans fault. They have money you can sue for.....

Well see the fact of the matter is this, I see that the first thing people throw up it's not an American Phenomenon, all cultures had slaves, Blah, Blah Blah that's a denial copout and a way to try and minimize what happened in America so some the guilt can sort of be shunted and people can not face the reality as raw and uncut as it was....anyhow yes the Civil war on the the surface might not have seemed to the outsider or historian about slavery directly but it was all about the wealth building machine of many of the corporations that exist till this day and the backbone of any capitalist country, Cheap, free, profitable labor, southern plantations, industries built off of the backs of slaves for hundreds of years. I think the worst thing of slavery was that the complete cultural lineage, history, identity and sense of being, languages were ripped and separated when the slaves were brought from Africa, and I know someone will come once again with another lame excuse, the africans sold the slaves and had them LOL yes, but this was more the exception than the rule and the circumstances of the enslavement was no comparison to the plundering, raping and forceful human degradation. Just about every culture here in America has a sense if identity no matter how American, you have the latin, European, Jewish, Irish, Italian, Asian cultural link to their home countries, and celebration of those respective histories and rich cultures, most of these groups take pride in talking about their grandfathers and great grandfathers stories of their home countries and almost saga like stories of coming here with a penny in their pocket, along with the cultural rituals and history, this unfortunately does not occur for African Americans whose forefathers were slaves, that particular type of identity and knowledge is completely erased the only identity is that at a certain point you probably have an ancestor that was a slave...it has to be artificially created here with Kwanzaa and people that tried to go to Africa and find out the rituals but really its' not.

I find that most people know the ills of Slavery and would rather deny, sweep under the rug and say lets all sing cum bah yah but many of the problems that we see today are a direct product of the erasure of cultural identity and pride in a identifiable history beyond the dark beginnings that a great deal of slaves or indentured servants faced.

I really feel that the worst misnomer ever is that this is a land of immigrants, the real immigrants came to the country of their free will seeking out new lives, fortune and better lives, none of those immigrants faced anything near what a slave faced from a slaveship and the middle passage brought nor did any face the numbers of deaths, murders and disease in the process of being brought here to face even more torture and hardship....

I think that many people of today do not think of all of these things because they only see the blacks of today and wonder what is their problem and never think of the root of the problem and the fact it was never addressed and fixed and blood had to be spilled to just get an "ACT" passed and a few laws to sort of bring some retribution.

Anyhow I think apologizing does give recognition and acceptance that a wrong was done, and in the vein of forgiveness it helps the healing than nothing ever being said, except forget about the past and move on....I think that other groups are given much more respect when it comes to them talking about their attrocities and being compensated and empathised with unfortunately, that really is the issue.

Originally posted by phinubian
Well see the fact of the matter is this, I see that the first thing people throw up it's not an American Phenomenon, all cultures had slaves, Blah, Blah Blah that's a denial copout and a way to try and minimize what happened in America so some the guilt can sort of be shunted and people can not face the reality as raw and uncut as it was....

Fact is, it wasn't an American Phenomenon. Britian too had many, many slaves in it's colonies, as did Spain, France, the Netherlands..etc etc..

It's not a copout, but rather a reminder that not everything in the world revolves around or happens in America.

Where I come from, Cornwall in the UK, for centuries tens of thousands were taken by African slavers. Where is our apology and free money? We don't bang on about it, we have moved on. Same with the French and Spanish who also suffered. It wasn't until the 1820's that African slave raids into Europe were stopped.

So, it isn't an American only thing. In fact, slavery in America is but a small picture of the whole thing, but capitalised on by Blacks who pretend they were the only victims and it was all the White man who did it, so they can try and get a free ride.

Originally posted by phinubian
anyhow yes the Civil war on the the surface might not have seemed to the outsider or historian about slavery directly but it was all about the wealth building machine of many of the corporations that exist till this day and the backbone of any capitalist country, Cheap, free, profitable labor, southern plantations, industries built off of the backs of slaves for hundreds of years.

Ah well, I'm no expert on the US Civil War, so I'm not going to debate about it. I'll let the Yanks do that, if they fancy it.

Originally posted by phinubian
I think the worst thing of slavery was that the complete cultural lineage, history, identity and sense of being, languages were ripped and separated when the slaves were brought from Africa, and I know someone will come once again with another lame excuse, the africans sold the slaves and had them LOL yes, but this was more the exception than the rule and the circumstances of the enslavement was no comparison to the plundering, raping and forceful human degradation.

Exception rather than the rule? Give over. African's were known to practice slavery from the 9th Century, if not earlier, but accounts do not exist. In fact, their "economy" was built on the supply and use of slaves long before Europeans turned up in the 1400's.

(note, Slave taking didn't start until the 1500's)

You do also know the first EVER legally recognised slave in what is now the US was owned by a Black man, don't you? Look up Anthony Johnson and John Casor.

Originally posted by phinubian
I find that most people know the ills of Slavery and would rather deny, sweep under the rug and say lets all sing cum bah yah but many of the problems that we see today are a direct product of the erasure of cultural identity and pride in a identifiable history beyond the dark beginnings that a great deal of slaves or indentured servants faced.

Please elaborate on these "many problems of today" that can be directly traced to have been caused by Slavery?

Originally posted by phinubian
I think that many people of today do not think of all of these things because they only see the blacks of today and wonder what is their problem and never think of the root of the problem and the fact it was never addressed and fixed and blood had to be spilled to just get an "ACT" passed and a few laws to sort of bring some retribution.

Thats probably because it happened and ended over 150 years ago. If a group of people cannot work themselves out of the lowly status they were left in, one wonders why not. Former slave populations in the Caribbean and elsewhere fare alot better than those in the US, so maybe the US is at fault for their current situation, but by no means should a blanket be dropped over every white person for something that happened a century and a half ago.

When education, healthcare and the like are available to all, there should not be any excuse why a population cannot improve itself over 150 years. Blacks in the UK fare well. Many are middle class. Same with alot of places. Why is it just in the US that Blacks are still downtrodden? It isn't because of slavery, it is because of racism, which is entirely different.

Originally posted by phinubian
Anyhow I think apologizing does give recognition and acceptance that a wrong was done, and in the vein of forgiveness it helps the healing than nothing ever being said, except forget about the past and move on....I think that other groups are given much more respect when it comes to them talking about their attrocities and being compensated and empathised with unfortunately, that really is the issue.

If your thinking of, perhaps, the Jews, then that is because they suffered at the hands of people who were still alive. Those that suffered were still alive. Those that stood by and did nothing are still alive. It would be right to say sorry and compensate those that did suffer. Not in the case of modern Blacks. None of them suffered. Why should they get free money?

You cannot turn round and equate something like the Holocaust, for example, in the 1940's (which is still living memory), to something that happened and ended 150 years ago where everyone involved is dead.

Any social problems you have now are because of bigotry and racism, which isn't a result of slavery, as the racism would still be there regardless.

[edit on 26/4/07 by stumason]

You have voted phinubian for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have used all of your votes for this month.

Wow. Well said.

Stumason, please give me evidence that Africans took Europeans for slaves for centuries. Not that I don't believe you, but I'm curious to see what you can come up with on that.

This multi-page British History article by Professor Rees Davies is really very interesting and informative.

British Slaves on the Barbary Coast

By extension, for the 250 years between 1530 and 1780, the figure could easily have been as high as 1,250,000 - this is only just over a tenth of the Africans taken as slaves to the Americas from 1500 to 1800, but a considerable figure nevertheless. White slaves in Barbary were generally from impoverished families, and had almost as little hope of buying back their freedom as the Africans taken to the Americas: most would end their days as slaves in North Africa, dying of starvation, disease, or maltreatment.
...
These slaves were housed in large prisons known as baños (baths), often in wretchedly overcrowded conditions. They were mostly used to row the corsair galleys in the pursuit of loot (and more slaves) - work so strenuous that thousands died or went mad while chained to the oar.
...
This may require that we rethink our belief that race was fundamental to pre-modern ideas about slavery. It also requires a new awareness of the impact of slave raids on Spain and Italy - and Britain - about which we currently know rather less than we do about slaving activities at the same time in Africa. The widespread depopulation of coastal areas from Malaga to Venice, the impoverishment caused by the kidnapping of many breadwinners, the millions paid by the already poor inhabitants of villages and towns to get their own people back - all this is only just beginning to be understood by modern-day historians.

There's a problem here.

When we're talking about monumental achievements, North Africans aren't black (Ancient Kemet). But, when we're talking about great wrongs, North Africans suddenly become black.

Regardless, thanks for the info, BH; I'll check it out. Still waiting for stu's response, though...

Originally posted by truthseeka
There's a problem here.

When we're talking about monumental achievements, North Africans aren't black (Ancient Kemet). But, when we're talking about great wrongs, North Africans suddenly become black.

Regardless, thanks for the info, BH; I'll check it out. Still waiting for stu's response, though...

Stu's at work and is a tad busy at the mo...

Barbary Pirates is a good starting place for you though.

As for the distinction you make about colour, I never said Blacks took slaves from europe, I said Africans. Skin colour means nothing to me.

I might add that the Moors from the 8th century and the Ottoman empire (who went on to control the Barbary Coast) also took many europeans as slaves. Whole villages could be carted off in one go.

One of the grievances against King Charles 1 (that led to the English Civil war) listed the Kings inability to protect his subjects from Barbary raiders, despite levying huge "Ship taxes" on merchants and sailors to the tune of £700,000 in one year (alot of dosh back then). He spent the money on "other" things and neglected to protect those who were being attacked.

Originally posted by phinubian
Well see the fact of the matter is this, I see that the first thing people throw up it's not an American Phenomenon, all cultures had slaves, Blah, Blah Blah that's a denial copout

I'm sure the thousands of living slaves would find this a copout and offensive. If people want others to care about slavery of the past.. they'd have alot more credibility if they bothered to care about slavery in the present. How many people sew their own clothes..? How many sex slaves are smuggled into western countries? Why is historical slavery more of an important issue than the brutality thats going on right now?

So much for empathy.

[edit on 26-4-2007 by riley]

Just to be clear, truthseeka, I didn't state or mean to imply anyone's race. I was answering your question here:

Originally posted by truthseeka
Stumason, please give me evidence that Africans took Europeans for slaves for centuries.

As regards race, there is plenty of evidence to indicate that black Africans also have been (and currently are) involved in the ownership and trade of black slaves.

Here is a very interesting post with important sources that support the following suppositions as regards black AND African slavery. From that post:

TODAY – 89% of African countries still have slavery.
news.bbc.co.uk...
www.religioustolerance.org...

FACT – Black Americans are FAR more likely to have had ancestors own black slaves then white Americans are. White American slave holders were 1.4%. Most black Americans are descended from Africa which had a near 100% slave practice.

FACT – Black Americans are FAR more likely to have had their ancestors owned by the ancestors of other black Americans, than by the ancestors of white Americans.

FACT – Only 4.4% of black Africans sold by other black Africans into the European/Americas end of slavery by ended up in North America.

Slavery is not a simply something that happened to "black people" in the American South, or "women" taken as sex slaves or, for that matter "white people" who have served as serfs in European fiefdoms or as 'mazuks' in Tzarist Russia.

Slavery hasn't been limited to a certain particular era in history. The focus on slavery isn't limited to England and their slave trade or 'indentured servitude' or the use of slaves in the Americas.

From the earliest times, warring tribes, be they "cave men", African tribesmen or native peoples of North America, have taken prisoners and have made slaves of them. History is filled with instances of slavery.
It's simply the way it was and, regrettebly, still is!

It's way to early to start looking for the 'descendants of slaves" to apologize for these inhuman acts. Slavery isn't over! Slavery still flourishes throughout the world; in Asia, Africa and the Middle East there are numerous examples of slavery that is taking place as I write this.

In strip clubs and brothels across Europe and North America we have women who are 'literally' slaves (be it drug effected, financial or actual) to pimps, organized crime or the Russian Mafia.

In Thailand we can readily point out the children used in the sex clubs but throughout Asia, China, India , heck, the entire world, we can find children being exploited as slaves in sweat shops, farms and even factories.

Slavery didn't end with the Civil War. If anything slavery abounds throughout the world and, yes, even in the United States in the many different forms that this insidious control of other humans for sexual and or financial gain continues.

I think of all of the time and energy that goes into arguing for apologies when that same effort could be directed at truly eliminating this abomination of "human activity". When slavery, in all it's forms, is finally eradicated, then it will be time for apologizing.

We can all, collectively, as one people, apologize to the generations that came before us. We can apologize to them all for taking so long to rid all men all women and children from this evil.

Originally posted by lombozo
Slavery. It's a fact. It happened.

And as a previous poster said .. it's still happening. Africa is still full of slavery. Black Africans selling other black Africans ... just as they did hundreds of years ago - it still happens A LOT today. Slavery happens all around the world. Slavery has been around as long as humanity has been around. It's endemic to humanity.

Why is slavery in many instances a dark secret?

I don't understand this statement. Slavery, which ended 150 years ago in America, isn't a secret.

Do you mean that there are some elements of that slavery are not discussed ... such as the fact that only 1.4% of white Americans owned slaves, but 25% of free black Americans owned black slaves?

source #1
source #2

Originally posted by phinubian
... it's not an American Phenomenon, all cultures had slaves, Blah, Blah Blah that's a denial copout and a way to try and minimize what happened in America ...

Nope. It's telling the truth and stating facts. Period. Those that wish to shut out those facts are trying to MAXIMIZE what happened in America for their own reasons and/or to further an agenda or two.

Originally posted by stumason
Barbary Pirates is a good starting place for you though.

YES .. the Barbary Pirates !! Interesting bunch. They are always pushed aside and 'forgotten' about. Tens of millions of slaves taken by the Barbary Pirates. Euros ... Americans .... and black Africans, many of whom were sold to the Barbary Pirates by their fellow black Africans.



[edit on 4/26/2007 by FlyersFan]

My replies were directly related to the apologies being dealt out here in America, as much as I would like to feel what happened in the UK and try and compare what goes on in Africa today we see slavery but its a different ball of wax than slaveships, babies cut from the womb, stomped to instill fear, murdered and plundered, that's all beside the point go back to the root of the apologies...SLAVERY in AMERICA and 400 years of it ...I really think many don't know how long slavery lasted and what really happened here and still happens, do some reading on the Middle Passage, www.amazon.com... 40178228read some history, don't try and overshadow with facts that occurred, this can't be swept under the rug and apologies are coming from high levels, this is the first step, Britain did not have the same things that had to be dealt with even long after slavery was made illegal, there was the KKK, Lynchings, beatings, Jim Crow....its just not even a fair comparison for someone in the UK to even have a genuine concern, either from a family history perspective, ie growing up in the south or dealing with only 1 Generation away were seeing what happenened in the 60's to Fight for equal rights....not a knock but I just don't buy into someone that 1. is not of that descent 2. in another country making analysis of what happens right here in the U.S..... just my thoughts.

I must admit I'm sick to death of this crap, we owe the blacks we owe the jews, no I dont owe anybody anything for what my forbears did I'm not repsoncible including my German wife. This is all about money and nothing else, Oh admit you did wrong and watch the law suits roll in.

Maybe I should sue the French goverment for the land they stole of my family in 1066 and those they murdered and put into surfdom. Again let the past in the past and move on, I notice many of these so called African Americans who are not African full stop arent racing home to the mother country I wonder why.

Maybe the choice of living in one of the richest countries on the planet is preferably to some disease ridden # hole in Africa where you would murder your own kids just to survive the next day. I have respect for those people they are true survivors and Africans and not some well heeled hypocrite claiming to be African and living like kings and queens by comparison. The poorest black person in the US is a thousand times better off than the poorest African.

And lom slavery is universal, it has spanned millenia, all races and all creeds and is practised as much now as it was then so why pick upon American slavery?

phinubian
I think we get it. And I disagree that bringing up slavery in other countries and other times is a cop-out. It's a fact. And if you draw the line between 200 years of slavery and 400 years of slavery; and if you draw the line between legalized slave trade and kidnapping people for slaves; and if you draw the line between a particular race being enslaved and people of all races being enslaved, it's clear that American's enslavement of Africans stands alone as the only case of its kind. (that I know of)

But what conclusions can we draw from that?

If you separate America's enslavement of Africans out by all the factors that are unique to it, of course it becomes unique to many other situations of slavery in the world's history. If you separate Africa's enslavement of Europeans out by all the factors that are unique to it, it also becomes unique to many other situations of slavery in the world's history.

But my question is so what? It's absolutely NOT RIGHT for one people to enslave another people. Period. The enslavement by the Barbary pirates was no more morally right than America's enslavement of Africans. It may not have lasted as long and it wasn't as many people, but that doesn't make it any more right. And it doesn't mean those people's descendants don't suffer knowing their ancestors were kidnapped into the slave trade. The illegality of the Barbary pirates actions hardly brings comfort to the European descendants.

What I'm trying to say is that NO ONE who has taken part in slavery can claim a moral high ground simply because the numbers were lower or because their government didn't condone it. Africans, Americans, Europeans have all take part in slavery and those alive today (except for those who are still taking part in it) are innocent and can offer no meaningful apology for it, in my opinion.

Of course I'm sorry that slavery has happened worldwide. But I don't say that in the same way that I'd tell someone I was sorry for directly doing something that hurts them. I'm sorry children are starving, I'm sorry the people of New Orleans still don't have their homes back. But when my action results in someone else's pain, the "sorries" I say are a different thing, you know? I mean, "I wish I hadn't done that." It's different than saying, "That's so terrible"

Personally, I feel that if the government wants to apologize (in the "that was so terrible" way) for having slavery be legal at one time (here in the US) I don't have a problem with it. I'm sorry about it, too. But how current government officials can make a meaningful apology (in the "I wish I hadn't done that" way) for something they didn't do is really beyond me...

Amistade, was a movie based on the true story of an African slave who rose up and eventually after much hardship, found freedom. Great film. What they don't show you in the film, is that once he gained his freedom, we went back to Africa, and became a slave trader himself. True.

Slavery was not just an American phenomenon, and took place across the globe. Stumason is quite right about that. In the Early Roman Empire about 15% to 20% of the population were slaves and both the Romans and Greeks had slavery for centuries. The percentage of slaves in America was significantly less by comparison. Mesopotamian, Egyptian, Hebrew, Greek, Roman, Persian, Chinese, Mayan, Aztec and Indian sources are replete with references to slavery. Slavery was well known to Arabs, and among Native American hunter gatherers, African, New Guinean, and New Zealand tribes, and among the Germanic and Viking raiders and many other pre-literate people.

To single out American slavery as somehow worse, is just as much a cop out, and signifies a personal bias. Romans were allowed to Kill their slaves without penalty. This was not true in America where murder of any race was criminal. Yes, it happened, but it was not state condoned. In America, murder of non slaves was quite common. It was also common to castrate slaves in the Roman Empire and in many other Nations/States. This was not the norm in America thus American slaves have descendants. The majority of slaves involved in the Atlantic slave trade went to South America, and the Caribbean and not to the US. Slavery in Africa goes back to the ninth century and trade to the Americas did not begin until the 1500s.

Slavery has a history that predates writing and can be traced to the earliest records, such as the Code of Hammurabi in Mesopotamia (~1800 BCE.), which refers to slavery as an already established institution. To single out America is to ignore millennia of slavery under far harsher conditions in other locations.

Slavery still continues to this day in many forms. Long after the US civil war, slavery was still big business in many countries such as Brasil. Mans inhumanity to man, is an old tale of woe that sadly will continue as long as we exist. I am not about to apologize to anyone about it, but I do believe slavery is immoral.

Sadly, past slavery, is still being used as an excuse for current problems and that just doesn't hold water in most cases. Cultural issues lead blacks* in the wrong direction and when they follow a bad path, they blame whites and previous slave owners. This is dubious thinking. When a black man calls another "Nigger" this only perpetuates a racial separation. When blacks choose to embrace their separation, they only keep themselves outsiders. Bill Cosby, a well known black American, has most eloquently discussed how black Americans are their own worst enemy.


* (If you feel that my use of the word Black, instead of African American is incorrect then feel free to substitute. Having said this, White Americans generally don't go around calling themselves German Americans, or Irish Americans, or British Americans, etc., By insisting on being called African Americans, they only further separate themselves.)

[edit on 26-4-2007 by Terapin]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
The enslavement by the Barbary pirates ... may not have lasted as long and it wasn't as many people, ...

en.wikipedia.org...

Not to be pickey BH .. but Barbary pirates took MORE slaves from Europe and Africa than the Americans did. Much more. Barbary pirates enslaved at least 1.25 million Euros as well as tens of millions of Africans.

Many historical sources say that the United States bought 300,000 slaves from Africa. Massive breeding of slaves in the USA made the slave population here rise significantly and quickly.

Africa itself has bought and sold more black slaves than any other part of the world. Slavery is ENDEMIC to Africa and it's culture. Note that I said 'IS' ... because it's still going on and it's not just isolated cases.

When it comes to slavery, America was just a baby and barely rated on the historical 'slave ownership' scale.

Originally posted by Terapin
To single out American slavery as somehow worse, is just as much a cop out, and signifies a personal bias.

You betchya!!

I have actually read where someone said that slavery in America was 'the most barbaric in human history'. :shk: That shows a severe lack knowledge of world/human history.

why do folks hate the blacks can anyone give me a answer to this question

I guess you'd have to ask someone who "hates the blacks" to get an answer to that question. I rarely come across people who outright hate another person because of their skin color, but I know they exist. I've talked to them and they're pretty scary.

If you're asking why people such as the KKK exist, well, the only answer I have is that they're afraid and ignorant. And that's only a guess. I can't imagine why a person hates another person because of their skin color, political affiliation, sexual orientation, gender, nationality or any other aspect of that person, except for ignorance and fear.

FF, yes, you are picky!
I don't know the actual numbers, but I know there is some disagreement on them depending on the sources. But really, that's part of my point. If it was a million or 10 million, neither is morally superior nor worse than the other (unless we separate the situation out by the factors unique to it, and make a statement that that makes it "worse", like I said before).