What threats do SS's pose

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by RWPBR
Anyway, to get back on topic, Masons have the right to choose who the associate with and to keep their business and rituals secret the same as any individual does.

That's the topic? Um no. This is the topic:

"What threats do SS's pose."

You guys asked, caught me in a debate mode and the rest is history. Really disappointed in the reaction though. Ya'll gotta debate better.

Your debate skills are not all that impressive my friend. You couldnt even keep up with my answers to your own questions and I went easy on you because you are a Moderator

[edit on 27-4-2007 by RWPBR]

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by RWPBR
Intrepid is is not about equality, it is about the right of free assembly.
We reserve the right to assemble with only those we choose, only those who meet our standards. It is abour personal liberty.

Here is to us and those like us !

Free for who? Who decides this? I'm sure Masonry isn't only in the US, where they have such "rights". What about the rights of French, German, Thai, Singalese people? Do those people have "free assembly"?

Um, OK! THIS might be the problem.

We reserve the right to assemble with only those we choose, only those who meet our standards,

So now YOU guys are judges as to character? Theology? Spirituality?

Intrepid gets to be the next victim in a long winded explanation of mine!

Of course, by the guide lines set by Cory

I ask that the responders do not get verbally attacked by fellow posters.

These are only my opinions, opinions I believe in, though your may differ.. at the least we can all agree to that.

First to Intrepid, because you have been active in demanding answers to questions..

Why should there be anything that is secret?

Secrecy is a word that is used often where it does not aptly describe what it is actually being attached to. For instance, the Masonic institution its self is not a secret. Its rituals and its works are not a secret.. I have found them, with ease might I add, on line in many locations, sometimes word for word, sometimes off a bit.

If it was infact a secret its works would be guarded much more closely.. and while I think it SHOULD be guarded with more control, it is not.

I think you may misunderstand the notion that there is something secretive, and there is something that, out of respect for tradition and for the simple respect, it is not talked about. The whole notion that one has to be worthy to get the information is the right of passage into the organization that all members must go through, connecting them through the same trials and tribulations, that all men in the same organization went through the same process, thus binding them within a brotherhood.

Why can't I have the knowledge of say, the Mason's, just because I happen to be an athiest, or a woman?

That’s simple really. These are the rules. The rules are set by those who created them, out of respect and honor of tradition to keep the fraternity just that, a fraternity, this is done so simply because this is the way it is. Why should we alter our standards, our beliefs and our right to come together as a male only organization simply because an outside source has decided that they should be entitled to entrance into which they do not have a rightful claim to bypass the wishes of the organization its self, is unfounded, and unjust.

Women are entitled to the what Masonry teaches, as are all men, of any faith or lack of, they just cannot get it within our halls, under our guidance nor within the ranks of the brotherhood. Can you be a good man without the craft? I would hope so, there are many paths to reach what Masonry teaches.

These secrets must be damn important if they've been kept for centuries.

The continuation of Masonry throughout the world over the centuries is a testament to the undying devotion to the craft and its histories.. as minimal alterations to its original status and form helps keep it pure and traditional.. however if it was made generic and allowed to have its historic traditions raped by those who wish to join without meeting the standards, such as allowing women or atheist as you point out, or perhaps felons and other petty criminals, then Masonry would have been destroyed long ago. It would not be the same Masonry that is alive today, just as the Roman Catholic Church is not the same as it was even 75 years ago because it was watered down to make acceptable by everyone, made generic. Most organizations come to this fate.

To say "It must be important" would be absolutely correct, important enough that people would strive to uphold the tradition and not alter it.

BUT if I don't fall into what YOU want, I can't have them.

That my friend, is 100% correct. The standards are set, they have been set and will remain set. If you cannot meet them, you cannot join. There are plenty of other societies to join, many other fraternities.. but do not expect an age old fraternity bend and destroy its tradition simply because YOU want it to. This does not work, not with this organization, and not with much in the world.

Are you saying that there's a difference between "spirituality" and "religion"? I was under the assumption that Masonry was NOT a religion.

Edit to add: Women can't be "spiritual"?

No, spirituality is not a religion.. and yes religions have spirituality.

To be purely spiritual is to be chiefly concerned with all things spiritual. This does not subscribe to a god or gods, it does not involve a large scale dogma to be used, it does not subscribe to ritual, practices, nor does it hold to any tradition.

A religion is a strict set of beliefs and dogma that is used as a standard over a large group of people who believe, for the most part, the same principle foundations as every one else that upholds the foundation of the religion its self.

OK, sounds like you think athiest don't have a moral compass.

I Masonry you make an obligation and an oath to your god. Without something to swear your soul upon something you truly and utterly believe in, your words are meaningless and worthless. You must swear to God, and what ever God that may be, is your own choice, but you have to swear to a God. This has nothing to do with the morality of atheist, an atheist is no better and no worse then any god fearing man, but when it comes to the traditions of the organization in question, you must believe in God, simple as that.

You've admitted that athiest have a moral compass, what intangible, unknown, voice seperates them from Masons?

Firstly, they admitted no such thing, that was an irrational conclusion to an explanation given to you on your behalf.

So it's OK to be spiritual but if you have the wrong organs, spirituality goes by the board.

As posted above, there will not be any alterations to the fraternity to meet the needs of those outside.. if you want in, you conform to the standards and regulations set by the organization its self. It has nothing to do with thinking Women are less anything compared to men.. nothing at all.. its a FRATERNITY.

Free for who? Who decides this? I'm sure Masonry isn't only in the US, where they have such "rights". What about the rights of French, German, Thai, Singalese people? Do those people have "free assembly"?

It is about the right to free assembly, and it is about the right to exclude who ever you wish to exclude.. an example that was held up by the Supreme Court was that Boy Scouts, a private organization is allowed to discriminate against gays and atheist, because they have the right to assemble as they wish. Masonry is a Fraternity that allows any race, any religion (though no athiest) and any ethnicity of any political background to be unified under one lodge...

Ironically you ask "free for who" .. its free for anyone within a lodge, and now you know why Masonry is so often the target of suppression from Despots and Tyrants.. it is an institution of free will.. for men.

So now YOU guys are judges as to character? Theology? Spirituality?

Both regardless and irrelevant, it is our right to assemble as you wish. You are free of your own accord to found your own "secret" society and admit who ever you please, but again, you will not demand the alterations of tradition for the sake of admitting a new member. Membership is not so low that we would stoop to such low measures.

matter of faith

Faith is the measurement of your beliefs based on a lack of proof, evidence or explanation.. faith is the full support given to ideas in which you live by.. it is neither related to Spirituality nor religion, but faith alone stands as it is, faith in anything.

As for "who is the judge" .. the investigation committee is actually the first set of judges.. they will determine your value.. if you present your self as a good man, you will be advised on as a well deserved candidate.. if you are not, the membership will be told so..

After that, the entire lodge is the next judge of character.. one vote down and your not getting in.. Yes, we are in fact the judge of your character when you petition, whether you like it or not.. but if you don't, I gather your not the type of person who would make it past the vote.

The jury's out on this imo.

Outside opinions are regardless and mean little if anything at all.

Um, NO. They are American amendments, granted only in the US

They are actually international standards upheld by the United Grand Lodge of England. Did you know there is Freemasonry in Afghanistan? They have the same rights as we do in America believe it or not.. they may be subjected to suppression and conspiracy, but you have all the rights in which you give your self, and are only held down by the lack of rights to the point in which you let someone hold you down. We all determine our own free will.

intrepid you have pointed out several things that many people think are bad or negative about the Freemasons, but are those things threats?

The question in this tread is about Secret Societies in general and there are many that do not have those negatives. Do you see threats in other secret societies like say The Golden Dawn or AMORC?

Originally posted by RWPBR
Your debate skills are not all that impressive my friend. You couldnt even keep up with my answers to your own questions and I went easy on you because you are a Moderator

[edit on 27-4-2007 by RWPBR]

OK punk, want to go Head 2 Head? I'm ready. You went easy on me? Right. I won't on you.

You willing to go there? Judged by those that have NO agenda?

Edit: Just say yes. PLEASE!

[edit on 27-4-2007 by intrepid]

Sure Intrepid lets see those Super Uber Mutant debate skills ! Bring it on Sonny.

[edit on 27-4-2007 by RWPBR]

Intrepid, seriously.. cool it.

Whats gotten into you, calling another member a "punk"..



Please.. read my replies to ALL of your questions.. and please.. cory asked us to please refrain from name calling and rudeness. To both sides.

Now on to the actual topic... *stretches fingers* -- Do I talk to much?

What threats do Secret Societies pose?

Depends on the society really.. there are always going to be, as there always has been, both good and bad societies..

However, a truly secret society with either be "Good" or it will be "bad" .. however history has shown us that, sometimes people form completely secret societies on rather large scales just to be a club..

However, for the most part secret societies are secret because they seek to avoid detection from someone or something that can do them harm.. destroy them..

Masonry was an underground society until 1717.. to say there was no Masonry before hand is laughable.. it was clearly entrenched within society. The Craft's history before then is shadowed at best, but there is evidence it was an underground society that used political maneuvering as well as supporting other political groups.. it is possible the United Kingdom was formed from the political maneuvering of some Masons.. and it may be possible that their predecessors (if you believe such things like me) where harbored as an underground society in relation to the Templar in Scotland to help fight the suppression of the English.. these things are all masked with smoke in the pits of history, no things are certain.. except..

That typically secret societies work for the people, and against tyrants, despots, kings and emperors..

There are also secret societies that have been known to work against man.. even though however most of these societies actually thought they where doing good, in the end did bad. An example would be Hitler’s rise to power.. his group was a secret political society for a while.. however when he had the ability he went public.. he expressed he wanted to operate as the Masons did, the same kind of structure, and his choices where rational to him, and to his followers.. the Nazi movement to the outside world and to those alive to day, is entirely irrational.

And while societies are either good or bad, that leads to the entire notion of fearing a society in the first place..

How do you know? How can you know? Any thing weird, different.. unusual.. they are treated with suspicion..

The fear of the unknown is entirely rational, even if fearing what the organization actually is irrational.. that is irrelevant while unknown, as no one trust what they cannot comprehend or know of.

Often "good" societies.. are treated with suspicion because someone else, often the tyrant these societies work against, are the victim of ruthless propaganda messages that put the fear of the organization into the minds of the people, turning them against it..

Hitler again makes an excellent example of this when he destroyed the 9 grand lodges of Germany and turned the people against them..

As have many on ATS bought into the fear mongering and religious hate filled venom that often infects people about something different then themselves, or something they don't understand..

I really didn't want to bother posting on this one, but, I couldn't help it. Rockpuck, I don't see how you could've answered those questions more thoroughly, well done. ( I sooo spelled that wrong ).

Secret societies as a whole dont pose any more of a threat than overt societies.

[edit on 27-4-2007 by RWPBR]

Originally posted by RWPBR
Secret societies as a whole dont pose any more of a threat than overt societies.

[edit on 27-4-2007 by RWPBR]

Thats VERY true ..

The Roman Catholic Church was an overt society (and a religion) that caused unaccountable damage..

Political parties are also a very good example of conpirators working together, in the open, to work against or for (or for some and against other) completely seen and mostly untouched (American political system) ..

The fear though, is simply because "secret societies" puts the image that people are then helpless...

Where as they are more often or not helpless compared to overt political organizations, that truely work in secrecy.

Originally posted by intrepid
So it's OK to be spiritual but if you have the wrong organs, spirituality goes by the board. You could be the MOST spiritual person in the world BUT if the GAOTU cursed you with the wrong organs you're out? Doesn't seem logical, let alone right, to me.

I'm not saying it's the way I'd run an organization, but whatever floats their boat.

I wouldn't even join a fraternity in college. Non-admittance of women had nothing to do with it, though. I'm just not by nature a joiner. But if guys want to get together and do their rituals and whatever learning type stuff they do, and they're more comfortable doing it without women present, I have no problem with that.

And looking at it from a practical perspective, maybe the fact that it's all male keeps the wives from being concerned about what they're up to.

"Going to the lodge, honey." And she knows he's going to hang with the guys for the evening. Sounds pretty benign.

Co-ed group meetings in the evenings, potential "issues". Maybe?

In some ways it is similar to belonging to a mens softball leauge
or a mens basketball leauge.

I for one have no desire to join or to even get involved with any of these secret societies.
Dont get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with people having these societies or groups, if its something they enjoy, then good for them but personally its just not my thing.
Of course I do sometimes wonder what goes on in these meetings and what their agendas possibly are but for the most part I remain blissfully ignorant on their activities.
I do have to admit though, that there is one thing that does concern me about one or two of these groups. The ones that are so powerful and influential that they have the ability to put someone into the position that they can obtain a position very high up in our government or military. ie Skull N Bones, Illuminati and Bilderbergs. I believe that, at least, one of these has the power to influence policies in the US government.

Holy cow I went to sleep way early thannormal and look what happend when I woke up ZOINKS

I got to start over and read everything that just happened to catch up.

Cory

Originally posted by Rockpuck
That typically secret societies work for the people, and against tyrants, despots, kings and emperors.

Make that worked. Today’s Masons are far from being revolutionaries. In fact, freemasonry forbids political discussion in meetings. The days of the French/American revolution are long gone.

The fear of the unknown is entirely rational, even if fearing what the organization actually is irrational.. that is irrelevant while unknown, as no one trust what they cannot comprehend or know of.

Some anti-masons happen to be quite knowledgeable about Masonry. Perhaps more than the average mason even. It's just they happen to believe that the 366th degree (or whatever) controls all the lower ones. (although they constantly fail to show by which mechanism they do so.)

Often "good" societies.. are treated with suspicion because someone else, often the tyrant these societies work against, are the victim of ruthless propaganda messages that put the fear of the organization into the minds of the people, turning them against it..

Morgan murder, the Leo Taxil hoax, P2, death during initiations, etc. These PR nightmares were not caused by tyrants.

EDIT: About secrecy…

Personally, I fear secret meetings in which the decisions taken have an impact on my life without me being included in the decision making process.


[edit on 28/4/07 by ConspiracyNut23]

All of the above comments are great except I wanted to know what threats do they pose to society.

Not allowing women into lodge will is not illegal and an Anti-Mason using that as his/her main focal point wouldn't have too strong an argument.

Not excepting Jesus as the only one and true lord is not illegal (yet)

As I see ATS as the only one and true conspiracy website I was hoping to learn how the others deem a SS as a threat.

I'm not only asking about Masonry since there are other's but I guess Masonry is the most prominent here.

Cory

Originally posted by corsig
As I see ATS as the only one and true conspiracy website I was hoping to learn how the others deem a SS as a threat.

Secrecy can be a threat. Secrets held by Masons are not a threat.

Not excepting Jesus as the only one and true lord is not illegal (yet)

As I understand it even a belief in Allah, Buddha (the non-atheist version), Poseidon or even Satan gets you in. (any "Supreme" being)

Either way you need to believe in mythological characters to be a Mason. So we the atheists are out.

[edit on 28/4/07 by ConspiracyNut23]

Yes CN you are right secrecy can be a threat. I guess cause I'm on the inside I don't see myself as threatening but I respect now that it can be viewed that way to some.

I personally do not have one iota of a problem with someone who does not believe in God and I bet there are many here who would agree with me.

I can go look for a better concise answer regarding not allowing atheists in the fraternity but the short answer is that the oaths have to be taken with having a SB in your heart to make it trustworthy. (yes atheists are more than trustworthy).

The Grand Lodges in France have removed the need and now allow atheists so maybe it's a matter of time but I doubt it will be anytime soon.

Cory

Originally posted by corsig
The Grand Lodges in France have removed the need and now allow atheists so maybe it's a matter of time but I doubt it will be anytime soon.

Thanks Corsig, I didn’t know that. Is the Grand Lodge in France accepted by the UGLE. In other words, if I joined a French Lodge, would you guys consider me a mason?


[edit on 28/4/07 by ConspiracyNut23]

Well here's where it gets tricky. There are actually 2 GL's in France. One is recognized and one isn't.

If your jurisdiction recognizes the lodge then yes you would be considered a Mason otherwise you wouldn't be able to sit in lodge with me

BTW- England was once split into 2 separate entities for many years until they came to an agreement and joined together the UGLE.


[edit on 28-4-2007 by corsig]