Originally posted by NGC2736

There is a lot to consider. But that still doesn't make it right for our leaders to ignore new solutions, and begs the question of what is in it for them by keeping the war on drugs in maximum overdrive?

I'm actually still open minded on this issue. I'm playing the devils advocate and debating myself at this point. Lots of unknowns which is why I suggested a trial program might be in order. I'm a Baby Boomer which means that yes I did experiment in the early 70's which gives me an open mind. I've also seen the destruction it causes in my peers who never did grow up emotionally in part due to drug and alcohol use.

Thank you blain. This cannot be solved by approaching it from either a "let's just shoot them all now" attitude, or the "party on, Dude" mentality. I am not in favor of drug use. But drug use is going on no matter what I like or do not like. And I hate the idea that so many are getting rich in the process.

It is self evident that we can't stop drug use. The question then becomes how best, at the least overall cost in money and human lives, can we control it. And who is it that doesn't want us to try a new method?

The real bs is the War on Drugs itself. US tax dollars fund part the global distribution of drugs. Skull and Bones was founded by the Russell Trust which was established from it's control of the world's opium market. And just for the record'cartels don't die or fade away'.The periodic bust that gets big media attention are of the suppliers who are freelancing to avoid the vig. Merely ask yourself, "Why, with an ongoing US military presence in Afghanistan, is poppy/opium production reaching record levels?". The creation of the Drug Czar by Bush 41 in the 80's wasn't about a war 'on' drugs, he was the Czar of the drug cartel. You've got to stand on your head sometimes to see the inverted realities we've been sold.


[edit on 26-4-2007 by YIAWETA]

hi

[edit on 4/26/2007 by Zach]

Originally posted by yeahright
I think the most cogent point, for me, is that what we're doing today isn't working.

No argument there.

Would we be "obligated to provide treatment"? Hey you make your choice and deal with it.

Its not about obligation. Our environment affects us both financially and socially. If drug use increases in children it hits us right where we live. We may have developed into a society where most no longer care about their neighbors but if it affects our own children there is no escaping the impact of it.

It's happening today. It happens every day. Our current efforts aren't putting a dent in it.

So how does making these things easier to get for our children make things better? Kids are kids. They are curious and it is our (the adults) responsibility to make sure we keep things that can hurt them out of their reach. If these things become commonplace in households they will find there way into the hands of everyones children. If adults want to do this in privacy and don't let them get into the hands of children I have no problem with that. It won't work that way though and we would be lying to ourselves if we said it would. I am a Libertarian by the way. That does not mean I don't understand how destructive drugs are to children who are not intellectually or emotionally prepared to deal with these things.

Bottom line. The money issue is a red herring. The costs of treatment combined with things like lost productivity, availability to children and destroyed relationships and families would be just as high if not higher. The real issue is one you mentioned. Should government legislate morality? Does it even have the right to legislate morality?

I completely disagree. The money isn't a red herring at all. It's THE THING...
...Did you happen to read the source link in my post above for the quoted material about the economic consequences of the war on drugs?

I did look at it. If drug use increases there is a domino effect. Lost productivity in the workplace and addicted parents who can not support or raise the children they produce. The psychological damage to their children and the cost involved with these individuals as they enter the adult world could be huge.

Ironically I had to fire an employee and friend of 16 years this morning. His drug habit finally caused him to commit a felony. He was a decent man.

I think for now I'll remain neutral until I can think this through.

'If' the 'Government' does have a hand in a large percentage of trades made in illicit Drugland, is it more profitable for them to actually keep the status quo rather than legalise/educate/tax?

Perhaps an obvious statement - 'They' want it to remain the way it is.

Legalizing marijuana is a great idea. I think the concept that the government wants to tell me what I can do with my own body is both hilarious and terrifying.

Originally posted by Blaine91555
Its not about obligation.

That was the word you used originally, which is why I "" it.

Our environment affects us both financially and socially. If drug use increases in children it hits us right where we live. We may have developed into a society where most no longer care about their neighbors but if it affects our own children there is no escaping the impact of it.

No argument there either. If. I don't think legalization will increase usage, and don' tthink it will be significantly easier for children to get.

So how does making these things easier to get for our children make things better?

I still don't think it will be easier for kids to get. If a kid's parents are users today, they have access. I'm not seeing a huge influx of people who are suddenly inclined to do drugs just because they're legal. People who use don't give a damn whether or not they're legal. They use because they're users. And oftentimes it IS the LEGAL drugs that are abused and fall into the hands of the kids.

Kids are kids. They are curious and it is our (the adults) responsibility to make sure we keep things that can hurt them out of their reach.

Absolutely. If a kid gets into the liquor cabinet the parent is responsible, no?

It won't work that way though and we would be lying to ourselves if we said it would. I am a Libertarian by the way. That does not mean I don't understand how destructive drugs are to children who are not intellectually or emotionally prepared to deal with these things.

It'll work the way it works with the legal dugs and alcohol now. Not perfectly. But a helluva lot better (IMO) than this unwinnable travesty of a "war on drugs" we have today.

And actually, I believe it would be winnable, if the PTB wanted it won. We'd eradicate it tomorrow with the will to do so.

I did look at it. If drug use increases there is a domino effect. Lost productivity in the workplace and addicted parents who can not support or raise the children they produce. The psychological damage to their children and the cost involved with these individuals as they enter the adult world could be huge.

We are already paying a huge price in every way with what's happening today. Throwing a dad in the slammer for some pot isn't paying dividends for anyone, other than the ones making a profit off the incarceration.

Ironically I had to fire an employee and friend of 16 years this morning. His drug habit finally caused him to commit a felony. He was a decent man.

You (and he) have my sincere sympathy. That must've been incredibly difficult. I'm sorry he drove you to that.

I think for now I'll remain neutral until I can think this through.

A reasonable choice. It's a very difficult topic and one I've pondered for a very long time. I'm certainly not a user. I go through a case of beer a month in the summer. Neither my wife nor I smoke, and my teenage kids have no desire to indulge in anything, legal or otherwise. And believe me or not, my wife and I would know.

I'm hoping we can see some rationality injected into this topic nationally/politically. And I believe the Libertarian attitude is the best way to go.

Pot is illegal because it opens ones perception to existence beyond the materialistic aspect of reality, they really don't want that to happen, it would cause a lot more revolts.

Alcohol is legal because it doesn't open your perception and it makes them a LOT of money but yet alcohol is one of the number one causes of death in the world with car accidents and liver diseases... etc...

So why keep alcohol legal if it's actually a leading cause of death? Because they don't care about our individual lives, they want our money.

The paradox of pot is that if it was legal they could make a lot of money from it by selling it and industrializing it but at the same time it would make a lot of people realize they are slaves to the system and that would be their ultimate undoing, almost happened in the 60's and 70's.

So just like they do with many things, they settle for the middle and avoid the double edge sword... they get their money from the tax used for drug wars, might as well get something instead of nothing right?

This is why they are on a plan to achieve a police state. With a police state they would have no holds barred and as twisted as these people are, this would probably lead to the end of the world caused by their excess greed.

Trust and loving government? don't make me laugh and puke at the same time :0

blain, I respect your position. I realize that this is a hard issue to face. I'm sure that for ever person who read through these posts, it was a hard fought battle to even try to imagine other possible solutions.

We're not a people who like to lose, and be forced to admit it. It is likely that many readers here did not post because the issue is so close to home for all of us. I felt going in that this might not be a popular site for that reason. But ignoring the problem will not make it go away.

I am seeking a consensus for making the best of a bad situation. There's no easy answer. But the first thing that must be done is to honestly ask yourself if there is a snowball's chance in Florida that things are likely to improve if we "stay the course" we are now on?

If the answer is yes, then explain to me why ALL the evidence seems to point the other way? And if no, then what is the next best plan that has a chance of succeeding? I have not said that there should be no other option except full legalization. I do remain convinced that an alternate method must be found, and so far, that is the best put forth by anyone.

If you will recall, part of my problem with the current policy was the huge incentive for corruption that seems to be part of the national policy. If the shadow factions in power are going to run the drug trade, does it not seem logical to get rid of the cloak of invisibility that now makes it so profitable for them? If it openly becomes the job of some branch of government to oversee this importation and manufacture of drugs, then at least some measure of control will be in place.

As it is now, we have the winners of street wars who traffic on the lower levels, and some very shadowy people in high places who really run the show.

All drugs should be legalised and taxed full stop.

Those who then buy should be told that if you become addicted then you are on your own, no clinics to help wean you off, no BS do gooders to blame your addiction on society, you made your bed now sleep in it.

Considering that the UK is now classed as the drug capitol of Europe I would love to see all drugs made legal here so the waste of space druggies can go and OD together.

For the record, I smoke tobacco and drink beer, not once have I felt the need to rob or commit a crime to feed those addictions, but then I work for a living.

Soz I know the OP thread is to do with USA but I had to say my bit about drug users.


Rant Over
Wolfie_UK

Originally posted by groingrinder
If marijuana were legalized and the government kept completely out of the manufacture, sale,distribution, and regulation of it, then organized crime would be dealt a sever blow and would lose billions of dollars a year. As long as the government was involved in the manufacture,sale, or distribution, then organized crime would also be involved.

How so? I fail to see your logic here. LET the government regulate drugs like they regulate tobacco and alchohol. Let OUR money go back into the economic system instead of into the hands of columbian drug lords.
The whole notion of not letting the government regulate free trade of drugs, IMO is silly. Who else will do it? A company? Companies are subject to corruption waaay more then government regulatory agencies (that have proper oversight). No regulation at all? Well that puts us on the same page we're already at - instead of it being illegal we've just licensed any mom and pop to cook up any kind of meth they can and sell it legally. Yeah thats a great idea! (not).

No, the idea here being to legalize drugs, let the government regulate them (I didn't say "grow" or manufacture), provide protection from contaminated drugs (such as laced bud), and come up with / enforce drug policy such as no boating/driving/flying stoned or amped up on meth, no selling to or buying for kids under 21, etc etc etc. This how I envision the legalisation of drugs in America.

Originally posted by selfless
So why keep alcohol legal if it's actually a leading cause of death? Because they don't care about our individual lives, they want our money.

selfless, I really like your posts but this wierd for you. Without the People (that being us) there would be no money to be had for the rich and wealthy...lol. This of course is paramount. It's paradoxial to say that the rich and powerful NWO leaders care nothing about our lives, all they care about is our money. You have to realize that they NEED to keep us alive and well so we can grow the food, make the textiles, engineer the technologies that provide them the money that they so crave.

Wolfie, this isn't just an American problem. Some of your nation's troops might well be guarding third world poppy fields as we speak.This is a global problem. This effects the UK and the far east and South America, and Australia, and everywhere. Wherever you live, drugs and the corruption they bring through this war on drugs affects you. Everyone everywhere needs to speak to this.

If we let this slide much longer, it may be too late to ever regain some semblance of control. We cannot as a species stick our collective heads in the sand and pray our wonderful leaders know best. They have clearly shown that they do not. Moreover, there can be little doubt that a fair number of them are reaping great benifits from keeping to this dangerous path that we are on.

Feel free wherever you are to speak on this. we're in this together folks, and our leaders will not help us.

Originally posted by zeeon

Originally posted by selfless
So why keep alcohol legal if it's actually a leading cause of death? Because they don't care about our individual lives, they want our money.

selfless, I really like your posts but this wierd for you. Without the People (that being us) there would be no money to be had for the rich and wealthy...lol. This of course is paramount. It's paradoxial to say that the rich and powerful NWO leaders care nothing about our lives, all they care about is our money.

What i meant was that they aren't about to stop selling a product that causes chaos into our lives. that's what they embrace, chaos.

NGC2736, I never said it was a USA problem, but the thread was originally about the problem in the USA, hence why I said sorry for ranting about my thoughts here in the UK.

I know it is a world over problem and it sucks, me been a old fart of 40 and one half years, would gladly produce a bullet for each drug user in the world....................bang.............no more addiction

Can you tell I hate druggies, one of my best friends got injected twice within hours by his GF and sadly died..............he was 17 at the time.


Wolfie_UK

Wolfie, I'm sorry to hear about your friend. I have to assume that he was a willing participant in the overdose, so while it is sad, it changes little for we who must soldier on.

And once we start down that road of executing everyone who behaves in a manner we find "bad", where does it end?

yeahright,

I think we are on the same page. As I said I'm still working this out in my mind. This is an excellent topic that needs to be calmly debated. The War on Drugs is most certainly a failure. My mind remains open to solutions. In the end blanket legalization could be a good answer. I think most likely it will be a different solution for each drug. I don't think society is ready to swallow legalizing things like Crack, Meth etc.. Its not so much what is right as much as what will the majority accept.

NGC2736

Yep your are right, but it just makes my blood boil, like I said I smoke tobacco, tobacco is taxed to the hilt but if you want to quit then you had better start taking illegal drugs before any "free" help comes along.

Go to hospital and be treated like a 2nd class citizen because you smoke because your are too expensive to keep alive, hell I have only been in a hospital to see my two boys born, so for nearly 30 yrs I have paid my NHS taxes, hell I should have private treatment waiting for me now whenever needed lol

I'm just sick n tired of paying my way just to have my own life and surroundings curtailed by idiots who contribute nothing to the world.


Wolfie_UK

I think you are correct blain. It will be incremental, whatever changes are made. I think that the public must be made more aware that there may be options to what is now being tried. Too many people seem to think, having been told so repeatedly, that this is the only way to go. I don't believe that line.

Perhaps this post, if nothing else, will give some a new perspective on it. And we might even come up with some ideas that could filter into the change itself. It is sure that we can't wait on the government.

And I have no doubt that it will be hard to get the legislation needed to make any changes, for reasons I have already mentioned. But if enough ideas can be generated, and enough people involved , a change for the better could start in even such a venue as this.

I am in hope that as our talks here evolve, new ideas will emerge that might be useful. And there is even the hope that someone will step forward to shine a better light on those political cockroaches who profit from this trade in misery.