U.S. House passes bill requireing troop pullout

Originally posted by iori_komei
The House is responding to what the majority of people want.

No war is justified if the majority of people do not want to be in it.

A leader does not base his decisions on polls. A leader bases his decisions on right and wrong and what is best for the country. If you don't agree with it, show it with your vote in 2k8.

Originally posted by Stormrider
No, the majority of the Iraqi deaths are the result of Sunni vs Shia relgious hatred which will only intensify once we are gone and there is no one to keep any sort of security, no matter how tenuous. All of the government and social infastructure that we have spent the last 5 years buiding and helping with will be torn down by the new occupying forces; think things are tough for the Iraqi people now? Just wait.

your are correct, how ever if we stay it will not get any better for anyone.
Iraq will not work under democracy, its just not that sort of civilisation, they like other Arab nations have rulers, religous parties and dictators.
Saddam was the best they could of had, and now they are going to have another similar to hime but probably MORE shia aligned.

The United States has to accept that going in and removing Saddam was the worst decision they could of possibley done.

Accept the consequences you have earned yourself, AS soon as you leave now or 10yrs later, someone will take control through force exactly how Saddam did.

After all, you helped Saddam come to power, and you helped him during the Iran war seems you stabbed him in the back.

Once again I say, the consequences of you taking Saddam out under a false pretense will be a Shia aligned, Iranian backed leader coming into power in Iraq.

You should count yourself lucky that its the Iraqi's who are bearing the brunt of your mistake, and not your own government.

You doubted and under estimated Iraqi's will to defend their homeland against a foreign power, again I believe your doubting their ability to find some sort of peace/co-operation once you leave.

But this is all void, the US Government has NO intention of leaving, look at the massive base we are building.

They worked to hard, told too many lies, tricked too many foreign governments, spent to much money, and broke to many laws to just hand it all back to Iraqis.

Corporations backed the republicans in the 2000/2004 elections to much to be denied their paycheques from the Iraq oil, and the Iraq security industry.

Iraq will be the end of the USA, but again the people people deserve what they are entitled too, and there's far to many US citizens still spouting the 'terrorist/Wmd/Iraq/Iran' crap.

Reap what you sow!

Originally posted by MidnightDStroyer

Originally posted by itguysrule
...what about the cost of NOT staying?

Hmmm...I'd have to say that the "cost" of not staying would be that our Federal Troops would be better able to help guard our National Borders against more terrorists entering unopposed & give aid to the federal Immigration Services to round up the illegal immigrants (which is a good way for terroists to "hide" themselves) for deportation...Which would also closer be in line with the "provide for the Common Defense" clause in the Preamble of the Constitution.

How likely is it that our borders would be overrun by terrorists? c'mon, let's stop with the over the top rhetoric, o.k.? THere is no way that congress or even Bush would station our active duty troops along our national borders and certainly not to round up illegal aliens.

We've got problems over *here* that more directly & immediately need "national defense" than over there anyway. Let's put the duct tape in the right place...Where we need to hold things together long enough for repairs to begin.

Oh sure, and while we're at it, lets deploy our federal troops in all of our major ciites to round up all of the gang bangers and drug pushers too.
What the Constitution was talking about was the keeping of a national militia to protect our internal security against forces seeking to overthrow our government as was occuring in France at the time of the Continental Congresses. We still have that milita, they are called the National Guard and they are only used in times of national disaster or civil unrest; these troops are not active duty Army soldiers. Granted there are a lot of National Guard troops in Iraq but once they return home they will be sent home not to guard the Mexican border.

Originally posted by jhanks28cold
As you can read, despite the fact that Bush has clearly stated he will veto this bill, the House of Representitives decided to pass it anyways. Thanks for screwing the troops, and making it known that pork spending and an arbitrary date is more important than victory.

It’s amazing that you don’t blame Bush for vetoing a bill that gives them all the money he asked for. No, you blame the congress because it suits your political viewpoint. I guess that is also more important than the troops.

To truly support the troops is to bring them home.

This is not about terrorism it never has been. wake up.


You show me one iota of proof that the whole war is about oil and I'll seriously debate changing my stance. You can't do it. The only people who profited from the Iraq war are the Iraqi freedom (you know, the whole brutal totalitarian thing) and Haliburton. But that's the way capitalism works- you find an oppurtunity and you profit off of it. But I digress. Don't like capitalism? Move to North Korea.


Removed my own quote.
Added quote tags.
[edit on 26-4-2007 by jhanks28cold]

[edit on 26-4-2007 by jhanks28cold]

Agit8dChop:

Thanks for your rambling diatribe..err, I mean reply to my post. However, since you are not an American and obviously hate America, I'll take those comments with a grain of salt, a very, very small, grain of salt. It always amazes me how many people from other countries like to bash America and Americans for our governments actions but would never stand for any criticism of their own country or citizens. I believe this is called hipocricy, I'll need to check my dictionary, but I'm pretty sure that's the word for it.

your more than welcome.
I believe the words your looking for are anti-american

which means your against the american policy or the administration.

well frankly, if your not then there is something seriosuly wrong with you.


My whole dia--urrm post was saying one thing.


your broke Iraq, and the longer you stay the worse your going to break it.
Accept the consequences, you provided for them misery, and they only hope they have is if another dictator comes to power like Saddam.


The only people at fault here are the American Leaders.
Deal with it!

And for your words, I love the US, ive bene there met the people and truley think its a great place.
Just a pitty everything your fathers, and their fathers fought for has been totally DISGRACED by one administartion and their corporate leaders.

I am a human being and a member of Earth, this gives me the right to criticise and say what I please about any action on Earth I think is HANEOUS.
Be a patriot, and stop this damn war.


[edit on 26-4-2007 by Agit8dChop]

Originally posted by jhanks28cold

This is not about terrorism it never has been. wake up.

You show me one iota of proof that the whole war is about oil and I'll seriously debate changing my stance. You can't do it. The only people who profited from the Iraq war are the Iraqi freedom (you know, the whole brutal totalitarian thing) and Haliburton. But that's the way capitalism works- you find an oppurtunity and you profit off of it. But I digress. Don't like capitalism? Move to North Korea.

I agree that the Iraq war is not about terrorism, but you say the war is not about oil and in the same breath admit the war is for profit. You do realize you are contradicting yourself right? What difference does it make what they are profiting from? They are still profiting from the deaths of people.

The war started out to be to change the regime and gain a friendlier source of oil in the future, and to have a strategic location to build permanent military bases. It is about furthering American interests in the area, which I will admit may pay off in the future.

However, I don't agree that it is worth all the lives it has cost, not only our troops but in Iraqi civilian lives. I think it would be more intelligent to conserve energy and develop alternative energy so we will not have to invade other countries to maintain our standard of living.

[edit on 4/26/2007 by Hal9000]

I am saddened by the level of ignorance in this thread, particularly of my fellow Americans.

1). Iraq was not even a country before World War I, it was a grouping of cities FORCED into nationbuilding.

2). The Iraq "conflict" was not approved by the Congress or House, Bush decided to go in by himself as an "Executive Order."

3). The only people who have made money off this war have been corporations, mainly Halliburton and Blackwater (MERCS).

4). The only groups that benefit are Zionist Jews, Neocons, and Christian Fundamentalists.

I could safely say fundamentalist had won in America until the moderates starting waking up to the insanity of this Administration.



To clarify something Agit8dChop said, to be anti-American does not have anything to do with the government. You could say I am anti-US government, but when you add the word America in there you confuse a lot of people. I personally don't mind you bashing this Administration as they couldn't have been more boneheaded if they tried. However, leave the region's name out of it and mention the government and I'm sure most people won't give you any more #. Just some words of advice for the future my friend .



Did I leave anything out?

[edit on 26-4-2007 by biggie smalls]

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
your more than welcome.
I believe the words your looking for are anti-american

which means your against the american policy or the administration.

According to the dictionary, Anti-American is defined as:

adj.
Opposed or hostile to the government, official policies, or people of the United States.

he American Heritage ® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by the Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.Source

When you attack, verbally or otherwise, the government or people of
this country, you shouldn't be surprised if you don't receiev a warm and welcoming response. Most Americans love their country; I won't say all because there are some in this country who don't give a rip one way or the other but the majority of us love our country, warts and all and we don't take kindly to insults. Keep that in mind.

well frankly, if your not then there is something seriosuly wrong with you.

If I am not what? Anti-American? I am an American, and proud of it, despite the current debacle in Iraq and the opinions of citizens of other countries, including New Zealand. I am not proud of the way this war has been handled but that doesn't mean I am going to give up on my country and it's history of greatness, just to please someone who has never lived here.

My whole dia--urrm post was saying one thing.


your broke Iraq, and the longer you stay the worse your going to break it.
Accept the consequences, you provided for them misery, and they only hope they have is if another dictator comes to power like Saddam.

Iraq was broken before we ever arrived there. If they were so happy before we invaded, why did the celebrate for days after when they knew we had captured Saddam? And your remark that the best the Iraqis can look forward to is another dictator like Saddam is offensive to say the least; they deserve a lot more and showed they want more by the overwhelming turnout at their first democratic elections. You may remember all of the purple fingers being proudly waved on the news? Maybe your country could use a good dictator, like Saddam as well, what do you think?

The only people at fault here are the American Leaders.
Deal with it!

That is such a naive comment that truly shows how misinformed you are. It's always easier to tear something down than to build it up, isn't it? Of course, the insurgent forces pouring into Iraq from Syria and Iran have no responsiblity for the current situation there; how could I ever be so stupid.
And the gruops of militia under Al-Sadr and other Islamic warlords are not reponsible either for all of the massacres of Iraqi civiians, right? Listen, it isn't American "leaders" shooting our troops and blowing up convoys with IEDs.

And for your words, I love the US, ive bene there met the people and truley think its a great place.
Just a pitty everything your fathers, and their fathers fought for has been totally DISGRACED by one administartion and their corporate leaders.

Disgraced in whose eyes? Not mine. The pity is that people like you think all America should be is the world's provider of amusement parks.

I am a human being and a member of Earth, this gives me the right to criticise and say what I please about any action on Earth I think is HANEOUS.

Well, as far as I can tell we are not living in a one world government, yet. So, keep your uninformed criticisms ehere they belong.

Be a patriot, and stop this damn war.

First, I am a patriot and second it is not in my power to stop this war but it is in my power to defend the honor of my country and the men and women in uniform who fight for her every day and I'll do that until my dying day.


[edit on 26-4-2007 by Agit8dChop]

Originally posted by Stormrider

I wasn't referring to dancing in the streets of Baghdad, I was talking about celebrations in places like Damascus, Amman & Tehran. I don't believe that the majority of Iraqis will be happy to see us go, after all the devil you know is always better than the one you don't. Would you still be relieved to deal with those insurgents if you knew their agenda was to eventually reinstate the same type of dictatorship you knew before but under a different name, like Assad or Ahmadinejad?

I knew exactly what you were referring to. My point was that I don't care about the leaders of those countries. Its the Iraqis we should concern ourselves with. Not how we look in the eyes of these leaders you mentioned. I know people from all those areas and not for nothing , the people who have it worst and that are being forced to live under even worse conditions then any of the 3 countries you mentioned are the Palestinians. Syrians, Iranians and Jordanians are not as oppressed as you make them out to be.

Strange how when it comes to the ME many americans want to bring freedom and democracy to people that are content with how things are , yet right under our noses and with our monetary and military support we help to continue conditions that have more dictatorial traits then any of the countries we are trying to vilify and that goes unnoticed. Its amazing.

Originally posted by biggie smalls
I am saddened by the level of ignorance in this thread, particularly of my fellow Americans.

1). Iraq was not even a country before World War I, it was a grouping of cities FORCED into nationbuilding.

What does that matter? Israel was not a nation until 1948, Taiwan was not an independant country until about the same time. It doesn't matter when Iraq became a country, just that it is a country now.

2). The Iraq "conflict" was not approved by the Congress or House, Bush decided to go in by himself as an "Executive Order."

This is incorrect...

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Bush turns his attention on Friday to the United Nations after the Senate joined the House in strong votes authorizing a possible U.S. attack on Iraq.

The Republican-led House and Democratic-led Senate by wide margins approved the resolution that Bush wanted to reinforce his demand that the U.N. Security Council threaten the use of force, if necessary, to enforce its requirements that Iraqi President Saddam Hussein abandon programs for biological, chemical or nuclear weapons.
Source

Get you facts straight before you post, please.

3). The only people who have made money off this war have been corporations, mainly Halliburton and Blackwater (MERCS).

Who else do you think should have made money off of the war?

4). The only groups that benefit are Zionist Jews, Neocons, and Christian Fundamentalists.

Please state, specifically, how zionist jews, neocons and fundamentalist Christians have benefited from this war. I don't think you have anything to back your claims with but empty rhetoric and hot air.

Originally posted by marg6043

Originally posted by jhanks28cold
My brother in law was killed over there, and I just find it difficult to believe we are just going to get up and walk away, when people like my brother felt strong enough in the cause to lay his life down for it.

And that is the reason we need to stop this fight for oil control at the expenses of our loves ones in the middle east.

I am very sorry your brother in law died in Iraq.

The Iraqi invasion and liberation was nothing but a lie fed to the American public to hide the true agenda in the middle east. oil.

The greed and corruption of the present administration in the pursue of private agendas forgot about taking care of the Iraqi nation and allowed it to become what is today.

A lost cause.

But the greed is to much and the need to get the hands on that oil is greater for the Bush administration than the safety of our troops.

The war in congress is just starting.

The only nations who have gotten more out of this war than any others are Iran and Saudi Arabia. Alot of our bad info came from exiles in Iran. I wonder if the whole thing is like a chess game. Iran manipulated us into thinking Saddam had WMDs and got us to remove their biggest threat and open Iraq up to Iranian influence. Both Saudi and Iran have made massive amounts of money off of the increased price of oil since the war began. They both far benefitted more than KBR or Halliburton.

Plus I have been there. Ill state this again the war wasnt about oil, unless your saying we drove up prices to make Iran and Saudi gain billions in profit.

Originally posted by Stormrider

Please state, specifically, how zionist jews, neocons and fundamentalist Christians have benefited from this war. I don't think you have anything to back your claims with but empty rhetoric and hot air.

Obviously this won't be apparent till later how they have benefitted , but BBC has already uncovered Israelis in Iraq that made big bucks on "training" the Kurds to protect an airport, and amazingly The Kurds have recently been contracted to build a wall surrounding a minority of people. Small world. I wonder just where they might have learned how to build big huge walls intended for the containment of a minority just like the Israelis have from. LOL

That pipeline from Mosul has been in the works for a long time..they want oil/gas just like the arabs. Its lots of money. The Iranians being sanctioned places them as being the only supplier on the mediterranean. Also another convenience they would just so happen to be the only supplier easily accessible by european countries.

Originally posted by itguysrule
So what happens if the US pulls out of Iraq and goes home?

It seems to me that the people who hate the US and anything else different from their perverted ideology will just see a victory and a reason to attack us even more! I see many people on ATS talking only about the cost of staying in Iraq - what about the cost of NOT staying?

Thats because most people live in a fantasy land. Where, if we leave there, there will be world peace between Us and that part of the world.

We were not in Iraq on 9-11.
We were not in Iraq when the USS Cole was bombed.
We were not in Iraq when the embassies in Africa were bombed.
We were not in Iraq when Khobar towers was bombed.
We were not in Iraq when the World Tade Center was bombed the first time.
We were not in Iraq when the US embassy was bombed in Lebanon.
We were not in Iraq when the Marine barracks was bombed in Lebanon.
These are just the ones I remember off of the top of my head I knows theres more than that: nightclub bombings in Germany, Airline Hijackings,
Airline bombings, etc.

The mujahadeen didnt stop when the USSR left Afghanistan. They followed Russia back to Chechnya, and set up in Bosnia and Kosovo going after Russia's long time Serbian allies. Russia has been fighting in Chechnya for almost Ten years and NATO is the only thing that is holding the Balkans together.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS

Plus I have been there. Ill state this again the war wasnt about oil, unless your saying we drove up prices to make Iran and Saudi gain billions in profit.

You think its nly Saudis and Iran profitting?
Have you looked at the profit of Exxon as well as other American petroleum corporations? You make it seem as though these guys pity us and that they do not profit from any of this. Bush's father is an oilman and he is also partnered with the very same people you mentioned, The Saudis. He too is making a killing from this. Of course they won't mind the price of gas being so high. They want the prices high. Just because you see Oil at 60.00 a barrel on the futures exchange doesn't mean its costing them 60.00 a barrel. These guys are making recordbreaking profits.

The price you pay at the pump is manipulated by the markets and the people investing in those markets. It could very well be the same people that own these companies buying or selling futures. They do it with Coffee, Orange Juice, Sugar, Gold as well as other things all the time and they have been caught artificially manipulating in the past.

You might have been in Iraq but its not like it means they would inform you of everything taking place.

Originally posted by ThePieMaN

Originally posted by MikeboydUS

Plus I have been there. Ill state this again the war wasnt about oil, unless your saying we drove up prices to make Iran and Saudi gain billions in profit.

You think its nly Saudis and Iran profitting?
Have you looked at the profit of Exxon as well as other American petroleum corporations? You make it seem as though these guys pity us and that they do not profit from any of this. Bush's father is an oilman and he is also partnered with the very same people you mentioned, The Saudis. He too is making a killing from this. Of course they won't mind the price of gas being so high. They want the prices high. Just because you see Oil at 60.00 a barrel on the futures exchange doesn't mean its costing them 60.00 a barrel. These guys are making recordbreaking profits.

The price you pay at the pump is manipulated by the markets and the people investing in those markets. It could very well be the same people that own these companies buying or selling futures. They do it with Coffee, Orange Juice, Sugar, Gold as well as other things all the time and they have been caught artificially manipulating in the past.

You might have been in Iraq but its not like it means they would inform you of everything taking place.

Yeah Exxons making more money off of the increased oil prices but compared to OPEC Exxon isnt making much at all. Arabia and Iran are making billions off of their national oil exports. OPEC is profiting more from the war than anyone else. The war has driven up the prices on the market.

Did you see my post about Iran? They are the real winners in this war and have been since it began. I personally think we were manipulated by them, and we are too proud to admit that they manipulated us with bad intel and exiled Iraqis.

One of the things Im worried about is I believe it was VP Cheney who said the democrats were getting very close to treason with their behavior. What I wonder is what if the administration decides some of the Democrats in Congress have committed treason and tells the Justice Dept to go arrest them. What would happen?


Come to think of it, it wouldnt even require that many to be arrested to place the Congress back in Republican control.

[edit on 26/4/07 by MikeboydUS]

[edit on 26/4/07 by MikeboydUS]

I am going to show what our soldiers are dying for in Iraq, open your minds and start smelling the corruption that has taken over our government and their greed for power and oil control.

Mystery of the Missing Meters:
Accounting for Iraq's Oil Revenue
warprofiteers.com...

Heavily armed soldiers spend their days at the oil terminals scanning the horizon looking for suicide bombers and stray fishing dhows (boats). Meanwhile, right under their noses, smugglers are suspected to be diverting an estimated billions of dollars worth of crude onto tankers because the oil metering system that is supposed monitor how much crude flows into and out of ABOT and KAAOT - has not worked since the March 2003 U.S. invasion of Iraq.

Now who are the smugglers?

Rumors are rife among suspicious Iraqis about the failure to measure the oil flow. "Iraq is the victim of the biggest robbery of its oil production in modern history," blazed a March 2006 headline in Azzaman,

Oil been diverted to Saudi Arabia, from Iraq, we should ask our vice-president Cheney about his role on all this and Energy Task Force Secret Meetings.

www.paulchefurka.ca...

The Bush administration of corrupted politicians and oil barons has kept in secrecy almost everything that has to do with Iraq and their oil revenues.

The worst kind of blindness is the one that is not affecting the eyes and the mind because of illness but because of choosing.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS

Did you see my post about Iran? They are the real winners in this war and have been since it began. I personally think we were manipulated by them, and we are too proud to admit that they manipulated us with bad intel and exiled Iraqis.

I don't believe that Chalabi came to us via Iran. He was one of Richard Perles poster boys for an Iraqi war. Richard Perle is definitly not sympathetic to an Iranian cause. Chalabi was one of the main info assets at the time. He robbed us pretty well. However we can't just blame this on people like him. Our government was paying him and they should have been confirming the intel and making sure what we were paying for was worth the money.