Bullying: Our favorite pasttime

Just a question here...

NOT a belief...

As inner character is built through adversarial situations, what are the end results if, hypothetically, all bullying were eradicated?

Semper

Personally, I think we go through enough adversarial circumstances as it is just being alive, and many times it is bullying that sends those less able to cope over the edge into reactionary behavior. Lifelong difficulties, as evidenced in this thread and recent tragic events, can result.

Social Darwinism is a failed belief system, and the evidence against it is growing daily.

Originally posted by Icarus Rising
Personally, I think we go through enough adversarial circumstances as it is just being alive, and many times it is bullying that sends those less able to cope over the edge into reactionary behavior.

Not sure how the average person is meant to cope. Being bullied by an entire school yard wouldn't be easy on anyone.

Lifelong difficulties, as evidenced in this thread and recent tragic events, can result.

In the aftermath.. I'm not sure if it was a student or a teacher but it was said that the shooter had previously read out a poem in school that was [paraphrased] "so graphic the entire class walked out" [charming]. I couldn't find a reference but I did find this:

www.time.com...
Nikki Giovanni, the feminist poet and teacher at Virginia Tech who stirred the campus convocation yesterday with a poem, had Cho tossed out of her poetry class two years ago. "There was something mean about this boy," she said.

Thats nice.. taking away a teenage boy's primary mode of expression. :shk: He might have had a mean streak but.. the way I coped was with drawing and some writing. I was bullied severely.. I don't know how I would have coped having that outlet taken away from me.
In reference to another school shooting:

www.huffingtonpost.com...
Contrary to the views of experts like Former Homeland Security Director, Tom Ridge, who said Cho was just "deranged," peers of many of the perpetrators of past similar crimes concede that those young men were bullied relentlessly. "Luke was picked on for as long as I can remember," explained a classmate of sixteen-year-old Luke Woodham, who killed his ex-girlfriend and her best friend and injured seven others in the 1997 school shooting in Pearl, Mississippi. "I do this on behalf of all kids who have been mistreated," Luke also declared.

As an ex-victim of bullying.. honestly I'm really not sure how I feel or should feel about this statement.
I was a defensless little girl who had butterflies and feelings of dread that prevented me from sleeping and walking to school was like walking the plank over circling sharks.. and thats carried that over into my adult years with chronic anxiety, insomnia and bouts of depression. They were the worst years of my life and as soon as I was old enough to leave school I felt relieved but it still feels like I'm recovering from it. Murdering people for bullying is not justifiable.. but if I were in a concentration camp.. [there are walls at school and you aren't alloud to leave..] it wouldn't be considered bullying. It would be called torchure and that is exactly what it is. What is the 'proper way' to react to it? I was told to 'ignore it'. Societies attitude towards bullying is apporhent. It's always 'kids will be kids'.. well if condoning torchure as 'just something kids do'.. so is killing. Not long ago there was a video put on utube of about 6 kids beating up one kid. Not long ago there was a video of kids raping a disabled peer.. they then set fire to her hair and proceeded to distribute dvds of it around the local schools. Whats worse is when some parents laugh and give their kids pats on the back for being 'assertive'. In a grown up's world if someone is getting beat up or raped.. he/she is justified in defending themselves. We've even got a syndrome where a woman is beaten up by hubby and finnally snaps.. is this not the same thing..? This is such a difficult issue. Maybe people should stop being sadists in the first place.

Apologies if my writing is too 'dark'. Seems now in the US kids who write dark stuff get arrested.. and the grown ups make movies like kill bill.

[edit on 29-4-2007 by riley]

Apologies if my writing is too 'dark'. Seems now in the US kids who write dark stuff get arrested.. and the grown ups make movies like kill bill.

I agree that the root of the problem is parental in nature...

Children know only what they are taught or learn on their own. We are the sculptors of their psyche and ultimately responsible..

Semper

Just as many adults have the same thirst to dominate the vulnerable.. they just express it in different ways. Children are the ultimate reflection of humanity.

We aren't doing too well as a species.

Originally posted by semperfortis
As inner character is built through adversarial situations, what are the end results if, hypothetically, all bullying were eradicated?

Semper

I disagree that character is built through adversarial situations. I think it is this "made made mythology" that in order for a kid to be "tough", he needs to be roughed up from time to time. Albeit physical, mental, or both, I don't think it necessarily builds anything.

An important consideration is the personality traits a person inherits.

Some people react to being bullied by becoming withdrawn. Some never develop confidence. Others become what are termed 'losers', because they have no expectations of anything other than being at the bottom of the heap. Some struggle through and become stronger. Others become timid and dependent and some become defiant, pain-filled and angry.

So whilst parents, educators, peer groups, society at large may be said to play pivotal roles within bullying environments, the personality of the bullied individual is also a determining factor in how that individual will react to bullying.

There are many compassionate people who refuse to join in bullying. Some defend the victim whilst others wring their hands in the background.

Bullying can be learned-behaviour, whilst for some, bullying comes naturally.

Many victims of bullying may go on to become bullies themselves. Others who've been bullied know how it feels and have a strong aversion to bullying: they become fighters-for-justice, good-samaritans and similar.

Bullying, imo, is atavistic: the more evolved the individual, the less likely he/she is to bully or participate in or even tolerate bullying of others by others.

'Good' people don't bully. Bullying requires a victim, someone who is vulnerable. Bullying is cowardly, unworthy, low, unevolved.

Bullying isn't just a schoolyard offence. It goes on in the home, the workplace, the streets, the parks. It occurs at local, State and national level.

Those who bully should be portrayed in commercials, posters, magazines, etc. as monkeys in trees, because that's their equivalent and that's where the bullying mentality reaches back to: our primitive ancestors.

Unfortunately, 'shaming' bullies does little to reform them: they just grow more cunning and secretive.

Attempting to 'educate' people out of their bullying ways is a long, slow process and of limited success.

Bullies usually only cease or postpone their bullying if they suspect or know that it will hurt THEM.

Some people LIKE bullying others -- they actually enjoy it -- it feels 'good' to them -- they enjoy seeing others in pain, suffering, humiliated. They enjoy it the way others enjoy a drink. For some, bullying is a drug: the wife and child beaters, for example. It's what makes their life worth living.

But education is the best society has -- and it's better than nothing.

I can speak about bullying from a domestic violence perspective -- though my husband never hit me he did everything but. I left the marriage with PTSD it was so bad.

I did a lot of self-education about emotionally abusive relationships after I left. Bullying is one subset of this larger phenomenon. While some bullies can be shown the error of their ways and be led to change, the majority of spousal abusers cannot. Abusive spouses do not feel they are being abusive. There is always an excuse, such as "she was asking for it by talking back," and the like.

These types have a flaw in their personalities that is very hard to change and to treat. First they have to acknowledge what they do is wrong, and actively seek to change it, as well as take complete responsibility for what they've done, and it is a rare abuser indeed who is able to. It's about entitlement, and power over others. They are so empty and damaged inside that the only way they can feel good about themselves is to drag others down and keep them there. I've been trying for a year to understand how anyone can treat another human being in the way my husband treated me and I have yet been able to figure it out. It's like there are two different realities: the first is the reality of mutuality. People who exist there believe in give and take, mutual responsibility and mutual respect. The abusive types live in a reality of Power Over. Any attempts by their victim to stand up and defend themselves is seen by the abuser as an attack on them! It's insane from a mutuality perspective. And from a Power Over perspective, mutual people seem to be the aggressive ones for daring to insist on their own rights and feelings being valid.

It's complex and very hard to explain in a short space. There is an excellent website on bullying here.

So believe you me, I understand completely what bullying can do to a person and how it makes them feel. But the victim still has a choice and control over their OWN actions. Two wrongs don't make a right; being bullied does not give one the right to kill. While understandable, it's not acceptable.

The answer to how to prevent bullying I do not have. I'm still being bullied by my ex, with the help of the family court at this time. Maybe in another year, I'll have some answers.

All I know is that despite all he's doing, I'm trying my hardest not to be pulled down to his level and join him in his games. I'm trying to take the high road. But I also have to have clear and consistent, firm boundaries with him. To the judges on family court, who don't have the time to get to know the individual people in the cases before them, it looks like we are merely a high-conflict divorce so I am blamed as much as he is for what is happening.

The difference is that he is lying to the court, manipulating our child, and trying to use court to regain the control over me he's lost. While I am trying to protect our child, telling the truth, and trying to get the court to make him leave me alone. To the busy justice on the bench, I look as bad as he does. He's throwing mud and about half of it is sticking to me.

Unfortunately, I don't have any other way out but through it. And the bullying I endured as a child has given me some strength and skills to deal with this, though I can feel my health beginning to slip and I still struggle daily with depression and attacks of panic.

Bullying is awful, but it exists. We have to look within ourselves to deal with it, and not hope that bullies will change. They have been with us since the beginning, and they will always be. The only thing that we can affect is how we let bullies affect us.

[edit on 29-4-2007 by MajorMalfunction]

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction
I can speak about bullying from a domestic violence perspective -- though my husband never hit me he did everything but. I left the marriage with PTSD it was so bad.

Been there too. What sucks is that when you try relay your experiences people think that if you weren't hit it doesn't count as abuse. Being told "I could kill you with one punch." was fairly damaging.

So believe you me, I understand completely what bullying can do to a person and how it makes them feel. But the victim still has a choice and control over their OWN actions.

Not always.. many victims don't feel they have the power to defend themselves which is why they are victims. Some don't have the power to defend themselves.

Two wrongs don't make a right; being bullied does not give one the right to kill. While understandable, it's not acceptable.

Bullying isn't acceptable either.. and though I wasn't a violent child I'm not comfortable judging one thats retaliated with violence as.. it's a child. They shouldn't be in that position in the first place and some kids don't have the emotional stamina just to suck it up and wait their school days out. Thats why the suicide rate is so high. Most of the ones that snap just kill themsleves instead.

The answer to how to prevent bullying I do not have. I'm still being bullied by my ex, with the help of the family court at this time. Maybe in another year, I'll have some answers.

I wish you all the best and hope things turn out okay.

Unfortunately, I don't have any other way out but through it. And the bullying I endured as a child has given me some strength and skills to deal with this,

Unfortuantly the bullying you recieved as a child may have contributed to your choice of spouse. I'm not sure if that happened in my case but it's possible.

Bullying is awful, but it exists. We have to look within ourselves to deal with it, and not hope that bullies will change.

Sorry but I could never accept that.. these days I draw the line. If I'm bullied I hold the bully accountable and they change their behaviour. If I see others bullied I do the same and I would only send my kids to schools with decent anti-bullying program. Hopefully if all schools and parents were on board.. in a couple of generations it might have a positive effect on society. They do it to get power... they can't do it if that power is taken from them.

Originally posted by Dock6
An important consideration is the personality traits a person inherits.

Some people react to being bullied by becoming withdrawn. Some never develop confidence. Others become what are termed 'losers', because they have no expectations of anything other than being at the bottom of the heap. Some struggle through and become stronger. Others become timid and dependent and some become defiant, pain-filled and angry.

bullies are not,in my opinion,human beings.like you said,no matter what countermeasures are taken,these little rats usually just simply find another cowardly way to avoid the consequences of their actions,and then eat at their victims some more.therefore,they should probably be portrayed as rats or worms,as it insults the monkey's intelligence to portray them as such.

Mod Edit: Shortened Quoted Text.

[edit on 29-4-2007 by chissler]

I think you guys raise great points, and sometimes these do go unnoticed by those who did not walk in these shoes.

Personally, I view psychological abuse as much more demeaning than any physical abuse ever could. While physical abuse may be intimidating and dangerous, psychological abuse may leave deeper, and long lasting scars. To be told you are useless, no good, a loser, pathetic, etc., for any extended period of time, one way or another you are going to begin to believe it. So rather than being instilled with anger, that may come with physical abuse, you are oppressed to an extent that can not be measured, and can not be understood by anyone who hasn't been through it.

Personally, I've never been oppressed through psychological abuse. But I try to empathize with those who have by understanding their pain. In my family, I've witnessed more than one individual be continually oppressed through psychological manipulation, and it is depressing to see. I've confronted them on it and offered help, but it is not accepted with open arms. In the end, I was in a physical confrontation with the oppressor, and in a heated exchange with the one I tried to help.

What these oppressors due, who play psychological mind games, is they appear to burn every bridge for the individual. They put them in a corner and leave themselves as the only source of communication. Without them, they have nothing, and this is their only way of keeping them close. Obviously this is in reference to interpersonal relationships, but it certainly applies to the concept at hand.

Any individual who thinks a person is "lucky" that they were only psychologically abused, rather than physically, is severely misguided and has no idea what they are talking about.

Originally posted by chissler

Any individual who thinks a person is "lucky" that they were only psychologically abused, rather than physically, is severely misguided and has no idea what they are talking about.

From your mouth to the court's ears.

These people use a tactic called crazy-making. It makes you doubt yourself and begin to think you're insane, and not the person messing with your head. It's akin to cult programming and brainwashing. My ex is a master manipulator. He's cruel. He's currently using my daughter to get at me because that's the only way he has left. She's four and a half. He's sabotaged her private school so that they're trying to break the contract for next year that they signed with me, so not only am I in family court, I have to sue the school as well. He's told her I'm dying, that she doesn't have to do what I say, and last Friday -- here's the kicker -- she told me that after her father wins everything in court, she'll be with him more than with me.

We were just in court Monday when we were chewed out by the judge for both of us causing this conflict. She's regressing because he is messing around inside her head. I can't withhold her because of the visitation order, or I'll lose her completely. But after the judge told us both we were destroying her with this, he continues, even escalates.

I think he's a sociopath personally. And I think it's a full-blown personality disorder, which is all but incurable.

I just wish it was over. My child is in so much distress right now and I'm helpless to stop it. All I can do is keep fighting him in court and take her to her counselor, and let her take out her rage and confusion on me. She knows that he's lying, but she loves him, so she's furious.

It breaks my heart because she's so young, and he's supposed to love and protect her and all he can see is a tool and a possession.

I don't believe in a mystical hell. Hell is here on earth, and it is other people. Not everyone, just enough of them to really do some damage.

Major,

Citizens Against Spousal Abuse is a great resource and very familiar with the sort of thing you are going through.

It is far too difficult for you to be fighting this alone and they have tons of resources and experienced people that can guide you and support you in this struggle...

Here is a Web Site that you can go too and get contact information..

CASA

Don't do this alone...

U2U me if I can help in any way..

Semper

society is made for people who like to bully, and its easy for these people to get what they want.

society is based on lies, and all people are interested in are lies, how you going stop that. its a pop culture thing.

if people only wanted to talk about truths, people would hardly speak.

Thanks, Semper, I hadn't heard of CASA before. I'll be checking out their site at my leisure when the baby goes down for his morning nap.

***

OK I've looked at it. Too bad they aren't here in Northern California.

I do have help, though. I have an excellent attorney who is doing everything he can to end this nightmare. I live four blocks from the Family Justice Center where I go to a support group and take my daughter for counseling. I go to a counselor once a week myself.

What I think needs to happen is that judges and court personnel need to be taught -- nationwide -- that 70% or more of the extremely high conflict divorce cases are because one spouse is a batterer or mental abuser. They need to stop looking at it as both parties' fault evenly.

[edit on 30-4-2007 by MajorMalfunction]

Funny how I was just studying interdependency the other morning before I first posted to this thread. I mentioned then at Bible study that it had been a particularly difficult week for me, culminating with an abnormal EKG at the doctor's office and a referral to a cardiologist. I said I felt like the devil was out to get me, like I had a big bullseye on my back, and the evil one's minions were working for a clear shot.

Later Saturday evening I went to run an errand and ran straight into a road rage incident. This guy cut me off at a stop sign, after I had clearly stopped first and began to proceed into the intersection in a grocery store parking lot. He barely stopped on my right and shot right out in front of me. I stopped and put my hands up in a 'what's up with you?' gesture, and the guy responded with a 'come and get some' motion of his hands. After I waved him off he chased me through the parking lot and out onto a main street, his tires squealing and making wild hand motions and all. He pulled up beside me at the next light, on a busy street, got out of his car and approached my passenger window. I gave him the peace sign and he pulled back his fist as if to punch out my window. He was hurling insults and calling me out, and I was just shaking my head.

Thank God he didn't have a gun, and I didn't have a heart attack. My chest was super tight. When he finally got back in his car and pulled away, I took down his license and dialed 911 to report him. What a freak. I live in a pretty mellow city, too, or at least I used to think so.

I wonder how many road ragers are abusers at home? Probably all of them.

We certainly do live in a fallen world. Not hell on earth yet, imo, but getting close.

It's painfully obvious that bullying is manifested in a multitude of forms and across all venues:

child abuse
domestic violence
road rage
sexual abuse
gang violence
***
school
work
church
streets
day care
any social arena

It is interesting to note how this issue is viewed through a variety of perspectives on this thread. Everything from first-hand accounts to second-hand observations has been shared. As it has been pointed out, there are a number support groups and intervention programs that address this (these) issue(s).

Ultimately, there will always be those who seek to demean and oppress through violence. But, perhaps, through open dialogue we can take steps to ensure the welfare of our children and each other.

In my experience, there seem to be 2 general categories of parenting techniques of bullies. I know that this doesn't cover every case, but I think it covers a majority of them:

1. The parents abuse the bully, who then passes it on to others weaker than him

2. The parents are actually proud or satisfied that it is their child that is dishing it out. As long as their child is not being picked upon, they think it's no big deal, and tend to ignore any complaints against their kids.