Actually, in pre-industrial societies, having more children was (and still is) an insurance policy. The parents hope to rely upon their children's labor to help support themselves and the family. They fully expect the death of several children as well.

Do higher birth rates equate to lessening intelligence? Across the vast span of human history, families were producing all the children they could. Remember your Dickens--it wasn't that long ago, and that was the world's most advanced nation he was writing about.

By this theory, we'd all be slavering idiots by now, but apparently we're not--at least some of us.

Originally posted by gottago
Actually, in pre-industrial societies, having more children was (and still is) an insurance policy. The parents hope to rely upon their children's labor to help support themselves and the family. They fully expect the death of several children as well.

Do higher birth rates equate to lessening intelligence? Across the vast span of human history, families were producing all the children they could. Remember your Dickens--it wasn't that long ago, and that was the world's most advanced nation he was writing about.

By this theory, we'd all be slavering idiots by now, but apparently we're not--at least some of us.

This was before the welfare state and the current economic conditions of the 1950's onward. It does not make economic since to have 10 children as it did in the past due to industrialization and child labor laws. The welfare state did not come into being until post WW2. The welfare state is one of the factors that is creating breeding differences between those who plan their actions for economic conditions (i.e. intelligent) and those who have one night flings without a care in the world.(i.e. less intelligent). The ability to plan long term is one of the strongest characteristics of intelligence.

Can`t do the quadratic equations quite so quickly?
Memory doesn`t just Fail but Flail?
Maybe you`re getting stupider, and older(see previous thread re:humanity getting stupider)?
Are the kids getting smarterer younger?
What can you do?
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BlueRidge, you are right, just don't expect anyone to admit it openly. It's taboo to say that you know?
Me, well I'll say it like it is, and it's a fact that lower income families produce more children statistically. I don't mean to be harsh to compare low income families with stupid, but this often is the result of being uneducated. As long as there are welfare moms with ten kids using up my tax dollars, my pro-abortion parade will continue.

I once had a teacher that said, "every intelligent person has read this book". I started snickering to that comment. Don't get me wrong because i love that teacher to death and she was my best teacher, but I thought that comment was funny.

This reminds me of the differance between intelligance and wisdom. You can go to college, read the "best" books, and learn from the most intelligent people but still be dumb as a rock. I guess computer would make better since here till we come out with some great AI.

In fact, I cannot tell you how much this post angers me. I can't even come up with the words to write. Did you know that some of the most intelligent people who went to the "best" schools are running this world right now? Where are we right now in humanity? Some of the most intelligent people have created things that have destroyed the lives of millions. We are all equal. Have you ever seen the movie fight club?

Styki

Originally posted by Styki
I once had a teacher that said, "every intelligent person has read this book". I started snickering to that comment. Don't get me wrong because i love that teacher to death and she was my best teacher, but I thought that comment was funny.

This reminds me of the differance between intelligance and wisdom. You can go to college, read the "best" books, and learn from the most intelligent people but still be dumb as a rock. I guess computer would make better since here till we come out with some great AI.

In fact, I cannot tell you how much this post angers me. I can't even come up with the words to write. Did you know that some of the most intelligent people who went to the "best" schools are running this world right now? Where are we right now in humanity? Some of the most intelligent people have created things that have destroyed the lives of millions. We are all equal. Have you ever seen the movie fight club?

Styki

Ok..........let's take a a 1000 people who have graduated from college or High School and let them own/control a business or Country. Then in contrast lets do the same with a bunch of High School drop outs or less. Honestly, what do think the results would be socially and economically over a long period?

Originally posted by BlueRidge
This was before the welfare state and the current economic conditions of the 1950's onward. It does not make economic since to have 10 children as it did in the past due to industrialization and child labor laws. The welfare state did not come into being until post WW2. The welfare state is one of the factors that is creating breeding differences between those who plan their actions for economic conditions (i.e. intelligent) and those who have one night flings without a care in the world.(i.e. less intelligent). The ability to plan long term is one of the strongest characteristics of intelligence.

My point is that, since the dawn of the species, the biological imperative has been to produce as many offspring as possible. Somehow, in spite of this, we advanced to the point we are now, for better and for worse.

You argue that after only two generations of the welfare state, which is a blip on the human timescale and which only exists in western Europe and the US, that the human species is backsliding intellectually because the breeders are breeding while us "good people" have stopped.

Frankly it just looks like thinly veiled conservative "loose women" morality and "welfare mom" racism to me.

I'd argue that environmental pollutants and toxins have much more to do with any loss of overall intelligence than this half-baked theory. Look for example at the stunning rise in autism, which is occurring in "good" families as well as bad.

ya i think most of us have seen that comedy with luke wilson i admit it was pretty funny but as far as beeing some deep theory its way off

i am pretty sure it was called idiocracy lol good title

I don’t think that people are “growing stupid” I think that “society” has influenced new generations so much that they are growing insensitive of what goes on around them. If you look around, we are becoming more restricted than ever when it comes to using our free will and freedom of choice.

Now what I am noticing is how the new babies been born today are so hungry for knowledge and so inquisitive that they are targeted as problematic and hyperactive, these children bright minds are immediately deal with restrictions and medications so they can be more malleable to handle.

[edit on 23-4-2007 by marg6043]

When I first started reading this thread I found it quite offensive and elitist in nature. Phrase for the day: Everyone you meet is a genius in their own right and often every genius is a complete fool at times.

Originally posted by BlueRidge

Ok..........let's take a a 1000 people who have graduated from college or High School and let them own/control a business or Country. Then in contrast lets do the same with a bunch of High School drop outs or less. Honestly, what do think the results would be socially and economically over a long period?

This dose not really go along with your OP. Your changing the story to make a point but it's not really going along with what you have already said.

In today’s world society the most well educated classes of people of all races are having fewer babies while less educated people are breeding at a phenomenal rate.

See here you are talking about the most well educated classes of people. In you response to my post you are compairing High School drop outs to those who have graduated from college or highschool.

If you consider graduating from highschool well educated then I am going to have to say you are wrong. In fact, in todays world it is quite common to graduate from college with a 4 year degree but many find that they will need to get even more education to do what they would really like.

So, if I was going to take 1000 highschool drop outs and 1000 people who finished highschool or went higher with their education things might look a little harsh in the days to come. But, in reality, we have more people finishing highschool than dropping out. That's not even taking into consideration those that drop out of highschool and get GED's. I have come to see that some students that get GED's are quite "smart".

I struggle to consider that enough of the human population has put an end to their child-raising days to cause much of a ripple, to be honest. Beyond that, there are so many different ideas of what intelligent really means, not to mention the fact that dumb people have been having smart children for years, and vice-versa.

I will comment on the idea that our culture seems to have veered way outside the lines. On the surface i agree. We're interested in celebrities, looking good means being good, etc. A bit deeper, it looks to me like this is more because of the internet and the growing social online media. All of this information has suddenly become so available to just about anyone, and it's just flying at us from all directions. The internet as we know it has been around a rather short time. I look at it like a toy. We just got it, so it's still new to us. We're still playing with it to see how it works.

People get tired of everything, different generations have different influences that drive them in some way. Our particular slice of life is a bit superficial at the moment, but in the background we're mastering our new medium.

So no, i think the smart people are all still out there. They're just pre-occupied so they're harder to identify.

On another note... It's sad to say but those who are less educated fill rolls in society that are needed but those who are more educated do not wish to have. Also it's something that those who are educated want to happen, and they are going to keep their balance of the situation.

Think about it... If those who were "educated" thought this was a problem, wouldn't they be "smart" enough to do something about it? Do you really think it's a problem that can't be solved in a way that is not inhumane? Maybe that's the real answer to this theory.

Styki

It's not that the people are getting more stupid, it's that the reality in which we live in, is growing increasingly "stupid".

True, everyone is a genius in their own right. But what 'right' would that be? A genius at being a 'pimp? At rapping? ...At screwing as many chicks/guys as humanly possible? The problem lies with what todays controlled mainstream teaches... and sadly it's become the mainstream 'culture'. Go to school take drugs, get laid/have fun, than go to college or find a job. After thats it's just shutup and be ignorant about the reality of our world.

It's a "stupid" reality we live in, and thats the truth. Sadly, the only way I see it getting better is for it to get a hell of a lot worse, first.


[edit on 23/4/07 by Navieko]

The whole idea of the society we live in is that you essentially don't need to bother learning once you leave school..

As far as intelligence, while yes, there are many ways to measure it, let's take ATS as an example.

I'm sure you've all read posts you both agree with, and disagree with. For the most part, I tend to appreciate those posters who, when posting about a particular subject have taken the time to do some critical thinking, and good research based on strong study skills.

A good example of this would be Gavrok's posts about Roswell - he spent a good deal of time going through evidence, witness testimony, facts and dates, rejecting those witnesses who may have been 'bandwagon jumping' or who had changed their stories over time. It's good solid research, and clearly demonstrates the intelligence of the person posting it - critical thought, strong research skills.

I think intelligence is your ability to take what you know and apply it to other things, or to learn new things rapidly.

Yes, I can do quadratic equations in my head. I also have a great deal of first aid knowledge in my head and other medical knowledge. I can apply critical thought to most problems and solve them, whether it's woodworking, programming, whatever. I understand chemistry and physics and biology better than the average person, and I'm pretty sure I could figure out the whole fishing thing if it became necessary. I think I'd survive some pretty bad times simply by knowing things, and being able to figure out the things I didn't.

I think stupidity isn't so much a lack of intelligence as a lack of willingness to think carefully and clearly, and to move outside one's comfort zone of knowledge. Many people profess disinterest in things like reading, not because they wouldn't enjoy it if they did it, but because they don't feel comfortable doing so.

I don't think that tests can necessarily show you someone's intelligence or lack thereof, but it's silly to say that humanity can't do without dumb people..

One thing you do not take in account.

Intelligence *is NOT* knowledge. (at least not in the way you are using it).

For example: Any drop out student can TECHNICALLY outmatch any other "high school graduate student" in an activity that requires some intellect, like chess, checkers, strategy games.

Why?

because Education teaches you KNOWLEDGE, how to solve certain problems, but not problems in life, problems in math.

I did not need my education to get the rational mind I have now, when I think about it. (I'm still in school though, so I should say I don't need, but w/e).

Because if I think back about what I learnt? I learnt to write a few languages and learnt to solve mathematical problems.

Did I learn to add numbers to eachother? Yes.
Did I learn how to enlighten myself, or how to be efficiënt in life? No.
But did I learn how to assess a situation and handle accordingly? No.

Unless you can count 1 + 1 = ? as a situation that needs to be handled upon.

Almost *anyone* has the potential to write an answer on a bit of paper, and all those people that do, already got the answers handed over on a silver platter.

If you look at it, most tests consist of using stuff that you learnt in school.
For example: You learn that 1 + 1 = 2, 1 + 2 = 3, etc. etc.
Then you get at a test, 2 + 1 + 2, and you have to apply that knowledge you got, in this situation.

However, there's not one test in which they say "screw you" and let you handle it by yourself without giving *any* knowledge beforehand at all.

If you can solve pieces you have no knowledge about (eg.: winning in a game of chess without prior knowledge so you're unable exploit certain tactics), that's what I call intelligence.

Now about your statement, if you replace intelligent people with well educated people, I agree.

We have been taught this in geography countless times.

People with no education that have to rely on crops and other stuff make lots of babies so that their children can help in supplying the family with cash / food.

See it as an easy way to recruit people without having to pay them.

Now that Humanity becomes dumber because of this?

Not neccesarily, on average, they might, but if schools get placed and everybody there goes to school you might get a sudden inversion from "not knowledgeable" to "superknowledgeable"

[edit on 24/4/07 by -0mega-]

I have admitting only skimmed through so far but didn't catch much on what I wanted to speak about.

I took a psychology class on evolution and behavior not long ago and we had a discussion on where our intelligence was headed. One of the things that struck me as odd yet somewhat obvious is that males are becoming more intelligent at a higher rate than females. This is because females are selective and the 'chosen' males who have shown power and enhanced survivability were also correlated to be more intelligent. The rate difference wasn't enormous but it was significant.

On a whole we are genetically not "growing stupider". The recent societal/social/cultural/etc. pressures that I read are not large enough to impact our genes in any way, it's a relatively very short amount of time. BUT... as I did see mentioned intelligence and knowledge are not the same thing. Just because you have the ability to learn doesn't mean you will use it well and that's where the rest of the world comes in.

I think we are quickly taking off life and genetic pressures to a point where we lack self sufficiency. I watched a show on the discovery channel about these scientists who were decoding and encoding neural signals for motor movement in monkeys. Technology progresses over time......... we could sit in a room all day fed by machines while a computer projected a wonderful fantasy life that was just as real as the one we know now.

I think we are headed to a point of dehumanization. I don't know why humanity wants to remove itself from life. Make everything easier, make less work, more free time. Which to me means more free time for the mind. Is this body not just a tool for the biddings of our consciousness? It is our minds way of interacting with this world. Maybe our mind is trying to remove itself from our body. Which is weird to think. Like I'm a psychology major intensely interested in the brain. So all my brain wants to do is learn about, itself.

We make ourselves more stupid when we choose not to learn. When we relieve all pressure and give up our responsibility. I know it's cliche, but it's "to be or not to be". Do you want to live your life or just let everything slide by. I believe in God and that I existed in some form (spirit, soul, energy, etc.) before I was born here. That means in some way this world is a brief gift. Imagine if you were energy floating around with no 'place' or physical substance as we know it. And then you were given the opportunity to experience the senses and perception we have now. To me it sounds amazing from that angle.

We're building a world that allows us to survive with a lower minimum of knowledge than previously needed for past generations, allowing the less intelligent to survive and the more intelligent to do less. Motivation becomes the ultimate factor.