Ancient Atomic Blasts?

Still new to this but I got this magizine a few weeks ago. Though I can't find links to the book itsself, I did managed to find others that might shed some light on this. Hope this helps.

Part 1

www.nexusmagazine.com...

Part 2

www.nexusmagazine.com...

We did an investigation of this here. In brief, the answer is "no."

* they found the meteor that created the Sahara tekties. There's similar tektites all over the globe.
* vitrified forts -- actually do exist, but the people writing the article accepted that no research has been done since the 1880-1940 period. Clarke's book (they misspelled his name) is interesting but very outdated. The blocks are vitrified on the surface and not completely through. They were created by fire, as evidence on the scene shows.
* The "Greek Fire" section ignores a few facts (the Atlanteans were defeated by the Bronze Age Athenians, according to Plato. No particle-beam wielding, atomic weapon carrying army is going to fall prey to 8,000 men (or 80,000 men) carrying bronze swords.) Passages from the Mahabarata that "describe" these weapons are either fiction (they aren't in the book) or deliberate misintepretations (for the most part.)
* Death Valley vitrified ruins -- well, there's vitrified rhyolite formations that are natural, and these seem to be what your site is trying to interpret as "city streets." You can use Google Earth to look at locations there, and to examine them. You can even drive out there. No "ancient vitrified ruins." There are a number of adobe ruins, yes, and a number of paleoIndian sites.
* "Piute legends tell of a city beneath Death Valley that they call Shin-au-av" --a "pulp action story" got turned into fact. Paiute have no such word in their language, and there's a number of huge lies that are pretty evident in the story when you track it down and read it (we did.)
* "nine foot skeletons" ... hoax. They were "reported" and then "golly gee they mysteriously vanished!"
* Cavern temple -- another modern (and very recent) hoax. Yeah, I know the "cook food by radio waves" is actually microwaving. This story wasn't actually around until after the invention of microwave ovens. As with all hoaxes, it's a "lost" site.
* Sodom and Gomorah -- they haven't actually found a site that everyone agrees are these two cities yet. en.wikipedia.org...
* "Atomic War in Ancient India"... is full of a lot of misinformation. Much of it comes from "channeled trances" and has been contradicted by evidence (there never was a "Lemuria".) The "ancient verses" about hair and nails falling out actually aren't in the text... anywhere.

There's lots of interesting and mysterious stuff to learn about and to explore. Do your homework first and never accept articles whose last scientific reference is over 50 years ago!

Dang it, Byrd!

Here I am, ready to sit down and kill some time exploring the possibility that we have blown each up big time in the past, and you go denying ignorance on your first post!

None of us even had the chance to make fools of ourselves!

I feel cheated...violated even

No, you know what, on second thought I don’t think so. I’m not going to let you ruin the mindless fun.

I think aliens did it. I think that every few thousand years we get too big for our britches and they have to knock us down a peg.

So there!
.

I have to say, that in the Utah desert near the Green River area towards Hanksville, the land looks as if an atomic bomb went off a thousand years ago or so.........its almost a torn up wasteland. Looks like the surface of the moon.

I think if NASA was hoaxing the moon landings they sure as heck could have done it out there............no one would have been the wiser.

I know that equipment designed for use on Mars is tested out in that area..............

[edit on 24-4-2007 by theRiverGoddess]

Originally posted by theRiverGoddess
I have to say, that in the Utah desert near the Green River area towards Hanksville, the land looks as if an atomic bomb went off a thousand years ago or so.........its almost a torn up wasteland. Looks like the surface of the moon.

That's because it IS torn-up wasteland... but from a gigantic flood created when a glacier dam to a vast lake broke. The Bonneville Flood was one of a series across northern United States around 15,000 years ago:
vulcan.wr.usgs.gov...

Originally posted by cavscout
Dang it, Byrd!

Here I am, ready to sit down and kill some time exploring the possibility that we have blown each up big time in the past, and you go denying ignorance on your first post!

None of us even had the chance to make fools of ourselves!

I feel cheated...violated even

No, you know what, on second thought I don’t think so. I’m not going to let you ruin the mindless fun.

I think aliens did it. I think that every few thousand years we get too big for our britches and they have to knock us down a peg.

So there!
.

Cockroaches. It was the cockroaches.

Would I lie?

You know Byrd, you remind me of the neighbor on that Tim Allen show back in the 90's. You know the popular science version of almost everything. I like it best because your avatar reminds me of Sam Kinnison, who was one of the funniest guys ever.

Regardless, if you debate things using only currently "approved" doctrine to "disprove" the alternate theory, isn't that sort of defeating the point? I mean, the whole glacial dam thing 15k years ago....i don't doubt its occurance (it seems too obvious), but i do doubt the dating of the event. Then again, maybe the dating is accurate and it explains the lack of physical evidence of human habitation in the "New World" pre Clovis?

You see, it all seems like a house of cards. To truly Deny Ignorance is to understand that the search for such denial includes the battling of your own compound ignorance (you cannot account for that which you are unaware). When I say house of cards, i mainly refer to archeology and geology.

What I like best about science is the seeming precarious grip that it has on Occams Razor. Honestly, considering all the holes poked in textbook science, one would think that stating "Aliens did it" to everything would be just as likely as theories with known holes.

There are many, many interpretations of various sources of data and areas of interest. Some say "Atomic blast", you say "Meteor impact", others would say "Cosmic thunderbolt". I have even read one theory, supported mostly by eye witness and anecdotal evidence, that says there is an underground base in Tunguska that, like others in the world, defends the Earth from cosmic encounters. This explains the balls of fire that were seen and called "Foo Fighters". Is any of it true? I guess that is for each seeker to discover on their own, right?

Happy seeking, friend.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
Regardless, if you debate things using only currently "approved" doctrine to "disprove" the alternate theory, isn't that sort of defeating the point?

Actually, I go into the research. It's hardly "approved doctrine" but I do like evidence that's solid.

I mean, the whole glacial dam thing 15k years ago....i don't doubt its occurance (it seems too obvious), but i do doubt the dating of the event. Then again, maybe the dating is accurate and it explains the lack of physical evidence of human habitation in the "New World" pre Clovis?

Mmmmkay... other than gut feeling, why do you discount the date? There's evidence to show the date is right (and by the way, scientists don't just put out a "fact" and everyone in the science community believes it. Usually they put out a fact and 500 of their fellow scientists in the same discipline leap all over them and shriek "Okay, PROVE IT!" After years of debate things get accepted.)

There's actually several sites that have pre-Clovis human habitation evidence, including Monte Verde in South America and several right here in Texas. Current thinking among scientists is that humans were here some 20,000 years ago and maybe as long as 50,000 years ago. The last is still controversial, but opinion has swung over to the "at least 20,000 years" camp in the past 10 years or so.

You see, it all seems like a house of cards. To truly Deny Ignorance is to understand that the search for such denial includes the battling of your own compound ignorance (you cannot account for that which you are unaware). When I say house of cards, i mainly refer to archeology and geology.

I taught Earth Science several decades ago (so my grounding in geology isn't perfect, but it's good enough to teach high school) and I'm a member of the Texas Archaeological Society, among other things. And I do volunteer work for a paleontologist as a fossil preparator (more geology!) in a museum (local archaeology!) So this isn't just armchair speculation... this is "hands on" based.

What I like best about science is the seeming precarious grip that it has on Occams Razor. Honestly, considering all the holes poked in textbook science, one would think that stating "Aliens did it" to everything would be just as likely as theories with known holes.

What you're seeing is the difference between science and religion. Religion says "this is the answer and there are no improved ways of testing a right answer." Science says "our tools for understanding aren't perfect and as we get better tools and more evidence, we must announce the truth (based on Best Available Data At The Time) and that we can continually improve our methods and tools and collect more data for a better picture."

Anyway, it's soon going to be time for the Field School for the Texas Archaeological Society... anyone (ANYone) can go and work on a dig and learn all sorts of neat stuff. It's in Presidio San Saba again in Menard and June 9-16. If not this year, I hope you get a chance to come to a field school sometime in the future!
www.txarch.org...


(sorry... I'm really in the dark about Tim Allen show/neighbor... tv is my weakest area of knowledge because I watch very little of it.)


[edit on 25-4-2007 by Byrd]

The Tim Allen show...I think it was Home Improvement. They neighbor that seemed to know everything in the world about everything, could speak on it eloquently, and you only saw his forehead and eyes over the fence for all those years. Very interesting character.

I would love to join you in Menard. I love southeast Texas. Perhaps my kids will have a tennis tourney in the area and you will see this big, fat, and furry texan wandering around in the forest.

Originally posted by cavscout
Dang it, Byrd!

Here I am, ready to sit down and kill some time exploring the possibility that we have blown each up big time in the past, and you go denying ignorance on your first post!

None of us even had the chance to make fools of ourselves!

I feel cheated...violated even

No, you know what, on second thought I don’t think so. I’m not going to let you ruin the mindless fun.

I think aliens did it. I think that every few thousand years we get too big for our britches and they have to knock us down a peg.

So there!
.

Cavscout
Hey go ahead and give it a shot- I don't think it will hurt anything- Right Byrd? lol

Wasn't talking about greek fire was talking about several areas around the world that were dug up and about 16 to 20 feet down they found fused green glass.

I realize that most people fall completely one way or the other. I recently acquired a sample of Libyan Desert Glass and began to study the morphology of nearby craters to which this substance is attributed. I have never seen anything quite like it before. First of all, the edges of the craters in question tilt inwards, not outwards (like a pebble being dropped into water), explanations for unusual formations are debated even within the scientific community and they have yet to reach a consensus. From what I've been able to tell from my hand sample, we can rule out vitrified waste, tektite and volcanic glass. So... does anyone want to take a crack at the craters? I have found a few more interesting things you might want to see but I'm waiting to see if this thread's still dead. I see it's been a while... Byrd, I know you're a tough cookie so if I can win you over, then I'll know I'm onto something.

Here we go:

Suspected source of Libyan desert glass (look at the crater):
dsc.discovery.com...

Note: "They found signs that the rocks has been shocked, alright, but not
at high enough pressures to make a good case for a meteor impact. What's worse, the shocked minerals don't jive with the hydrothermal hypothesis either, he said. "They're clearly not impact craters," said geologist and impact crater researcher Jay Melosh of the University of Arizona. He recently visited with some of Paillou's colleagues and learned that the layers of earth around the rims of the craters are tilted inward � the opposite of what would be expected from an impact crater, he said."
------
Better Images from another website:
hometown.aol.de...

Notes There: (GKCF13)
Andras Zboray told me, that the crater (meant is GKCF13) superficially
looks almost the same as the Clayton Craters, with a major difference. The crater walls are very clear of horizontally bedded sandstone, whereas at Clayton Craters the walls are all rotated 90 degrees. The layers seem to
dip slightly inwards (?). There became found a layer of fused sandstone
breccia, with purple sandstone fragments embedded into a white sandstone
matrix. However the purple fragments appear rounded and weathered (a brown cortex visible where rock fractured around the embedded fragments), not sharp angular. Andras Zboray visited once more in 2004 specially GKCF02. He noted on his homepage: "It was a near circular bowl shaped depression with steep outer walls, superficially similar to some of Clayton's Craters, however some differences were readily evident. The sandstones around the rim were all horizontally bedded, dipping slightly inwards, unlike the vertically upturned and heat-fused walls of craters of volcanic origin. Inside the walls we also noted a layer of brecciated sandstone, however the purplish sandstone fragments all appeared rounded and having a brownish crust, unlike sharp angular pieces expected from an impact breccia. From what we could establish, the crater was certainly not of volcanic origin." Philippe Paillou has also described: "Abundant polymict breccias were observed along the rim of all craters, forming pluri-decimetric to metric beds, sometimes interbedded with sandstones. They consist of centimeter-to decimeter-sized irregular fragments, embedded in a fine-grained quartz matrix. Beds are systematically dipping inwards the crater, with a steep dip dose to vertical on the highest rims down to about 30� on the lowest observable rims."
-------
Now, compare to this NASA Remote Sensing tutorial: Sedan Test Site
rst.gsfc.nasa.gov...-8

18-8 Sedan site sample features are identical to my sample and differ
greatly from natural impact crater samples below (no brown bars & no sharp crystals)
Note: "Of particular interest is the progressive shock metamorphism of a
basalt flow unit that was the site of a small nuclear cratering explosion
(Danny Boy event) at the Nevada Test Site. Samples from that event showed mainly fracturing, whose numbers per unit area of thin sections made from samples recovered at progressively closer distances to the crater wall increased as the wall was reached. This is a typical view of fractured plagioclase in the basalt."
----
The finale, a crater with inward-tilting walls:
nuclearweaponarchive.org...
My Notes!
1) Inward tilt at crater's edge
2) Rubble Cap
3) Samples from NASA website morphologically identical to my own
4) Natural tektites, according the NASA again, are only about 60% SiO2,
compared to 98% for test sites (and LDG)
5) Volcanic glass is never less than 17% water
6) Colors in the glass are attributed to the metals used in the device
wiring (i.e., COPPER!) and natural tektites are generally grey or black
PRESTO!

Originally posted by Xtal_Phusion
From what I've been able to tell from my hand sample, we can rule out vitrified waste, tektite and volcanic glass.

How did you determine this? I'm assuming you're a rockhound and did some fracture tests and looked for conchoidal fractures? What did you find? Did you do a color plate test and what were the results? What was the hardness?

Good job on your findings, Xtal_Phusion.

[edit on 5/4/2007 by Leyla]

www2.jpl.nasa.gov...

This was covered recently on BBC TV. Apparently the shoemaker levy comet whacking into Jupiter gave scientists the clue that not all meteorites reach the surface before exploding. Apparently Tunguska was the same phenomenon as the ancient aerial burst (as they call them) but on a smaller scale.

Here's a gif scan of an article from Harvard on the subject:
articles.adsabs.harvard.edu...

Here's another on aerial bursts as terrestrial accretionary events:
www.liebertonline.com...

I remember some of the original speculation about the tektite in King Tut's head-dress. Otherwise known as King Tut's Tektite. Try saying that really fast.

Xtal_Phusion I just want to say that your researches are very exciting; having said that I am in way over my head here, as I have only a grade 11 geology class to rely on. Just going to throw out one prosaic possibility (which I would like to eliminate as a possibility); Is it possible there has been atomic testing in the area? Other than that, this thread caught my eye because I have always wondered about the Iridium layer that is supposed to have been caused by a metereorite. Just did some precursory reading in the following article;

palaeo.gly.bris.ac.uk...

The author mentions how the concentrations are found to be analogous to nuclear testing sites (even thought the gist of the article is towards proving a meteorite). I am curious about this, open to both cons and pros here. It is a case of not knowing enough to ask the right questions, both the iridium layer still nags me.

The Nexus article is a good find regardless.

Most of the channeled information within New Age and elsewhere DOES NOT say that there were ancient atomic wars.

For example, the well-known Edgar Cayce material espouses that the misuse of the energies of a large quartz crystal led to the downfall of Atlantis - not a nuclear holocaust.

But one does not even have to rely solely on mystical awareness and/or soul memory in order to obtain evidence about the use of nuclear weapons prior to the Bronze Age.

For example...

Historian Kisari Mohan Ganguli says that "Indian sacred writings" are full of such descriptions, which sound like an atomic blast as experienced in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. He says references mention fighting sky chariots and final weapons.

An ancient battle is described in the Drona Parva, a section of the Mahabharata. "The passage tells of combat where explosions of final weapons decimate entire armies, causing crowds of warriors with steeds and elephants and weapons to be carried away as if they were dry leaves of trees," says Ganguli. "Instead of mushroom clouds, the writer describes a perpendicular explosion with its billowing smoke clouds as consecutive openings of giant parasols. There are comments about the contamination of food and people's hair falling out."

Source: Ancient Atomic Knowledge?

And...

Scientists have unearthed an ancient city where evidence shows an atomic blast dating back thousands of years, from 8,000 to 12,000 years, destroyed most of the buildings and probably a half-million people. One researcher estimates that the nuclear bomb used was about the size of the ones dropped on Japan in 1945.

Source: Ancient City Found In India Irradiated By Nuclear Blast 8,000 Years Ago

And...

When excavations of Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro reached the street level, they discovered skeletons scattered about the cities, many holding hands and sprawling in the streets as if some instant, horrible doom had taken place...And these skeletons are thousands of years old, even by traditional archaeological standards. These skeletons are among the most radioactive ever found, on par with those at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. At one site, Soviet scholars found a skeleton which had a radioactive level 50 times greater than normal. Other cities have been found in northern India that show indications of explosions of great magnitude. One such city, found between the Ganges and the mountains of Rajmahal, seems to have been subjected to intense heat. Huge masses of walls and foundations of the ancient city are fused together, literally vitrified! And since there is no indication of a volcanic eruption at Mohenjo-Daro or at the other cities, the intense heat to melt clay vessels can only be explained by an atomic blast or some other unknown weapon. The cities were wiped out entirely. While the skeletons have been carbon-dated to 2500 BC, we must keep in mind that carbon-dating involves measuring the amount of radiation left. When atomic explosions are involved, that makes then seem much younger. Manhattan Project chief scientist Dr J. Robert Oppenheimer was known to be familiar with ancient Sanskrit literature. In an interview conducted after he watched the first atomic test, he quoted from the Bhagavad Gita: "'Now I am become Death, the Destroyer of Worlds.' I suppose we all felt that way." When asked in an interview at Rochester University seven years after the Alamogordo nuclear test whether that was the first atomic bomb ever to be detonated, his reply was, "Well, yes, in modern history." Ancient cities whose brick and stonewalls have literally been vitrified, that is, fused together, can be found in India, Ireland, Scotland, France, Turkey and other places.

Source: Ancient Nuclear War?

Man! I wish I had more time but my boss dumped a heaping pile of crap for me to do this week that will consume most of my time. So to quickly address Byrd's inquiries... I wouldn't call myself a "rock hound" but I do like to collect interesting things. I also took an astrobiology field course in grad school which included trips to impact sites. Your field experience seems more extensive than mine so I am eager to learn from you. Anyway, to address your questions.... I know you're no dummy so I'm posting images of my implements:

i167.photobucket.com...

For everyone else, the spikes have different tips on both ends, each corresponding to a different hardness rating. The ceramic tile is used for the color test and the resulting streak color can make it easier to distinguish between minerals that look alike (i.e., magnetite vs. hematite; one streaks grey and the other red).

The streak test yields no color:

i167.photobucket.com...

Scratching yields a rating of 5 (1-10 scale); not too hard & not too soft.

i167.photobucket.com...

I've heard about the aerial burst hypothesis as well but I believe it was discounted. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. As for the skeletons I went on an active search for peer-reviewed literature a few weeks ago and turned up just one paper about it-- that I was forbidden to access. So, they do exist but that's all I can conclude. Possibly this was due to the sort of library access I have through work (shutting me out of certain topic areas). I intend to keep looking but would appreciate it if anyone else wants to help me find literature. liquidself, I wouln't worry about your background so long as one sticks to reputable sources.

I try my best but everyone messes up once in a while. It happens and that's how we learn. In my oppinion, the most important predictor of potential in a given area is sheer interest. If you love what you do, learning comes easily. I will try to appeal to everyone in my posts so if I say something that seems a bit vague, please feel free to ask for clarification. I can dress up trash in high-brow jargon all I want but at the end of the day, all that really matters is CONTENT.

I did come across another paper during my search about a region in India where there were high levels of thorium in the sand. The paper was a genetic study on the long-term effects of natural radiation exposure across generations. If you enter "Natural radioactivity and human mitochondrial DNA mutations" into google.com, you will find the PNAS (Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences) .pdf article (need Adobe to open/read it). I do not know how close this region is geographically to the site where the skeletons were found.

To paraphrase Jessica Simpson :

I totally don't know what she just said, but I enjoy reading it.

I truly like these point / counter-point discussions, although I really
have nothing of value to add.

It's kind of nice to see opposing views being civil to one another.

Thanks,
Lex