The F-111 Aardvark: How might it be different today?

Dispite it's earily problems the F-111 Aadvark went on to become one of the most capable strike platforms in the air. It was even adapted for the strategic role as the FB-111A, which flew for SAC. The Major advanage of the type was the swing-wing system that allowed for slower takeoffs with heavy loads when the wings were swept forward, and a top speed of Mach 2.5 with the wings fully swept back. The plane also could carry weapons both interally and externally.

Now if the F-111 were being disign today instead of the F-35 JSF, what do you think might be different about it?

Tim

As my father put it, "If you could get the FB-111 in the air in halfway decent shape, nothing could touch it. The problem was getting them in halfway decent shape." It wasn't just the swing wing mechanism, it was a lot of things with the F/FB. I imagine a lot of the problems they had when they originally built them would be worked out. They put a lot of technology into them that was just being developed at the time.

It would be a light bomber I think
there is a designation of Aadvark called FB-111H, which we would say it a bomber rather than a MRCA.

The F-111H was the proposal that would have taken the place of the B-1 after the B-1 was canceled. It would have been basically the same plane, just upgraded over earlier models.

F-111 was definitely an outstanding plane and some of its capabilities were not competely replaced by the F-15E.

F-111s were the fastest combat aircraft in the US military, I have heard of them hitting M2.8 in the D model, and the F had even more power. Airframe and canopy are not going to be able to take much of that.

F-111 was one of the first, if not the first FBW aircraft. Also a little known fact was the D model could fire AIM-7.

Originally posted by firepilot
Also a little known fact was the D model could fire AIM-7.

So could the B model, which by the way was also the first aircraft to carry the AIM-54 Phoniex Missile. Many people forget that Beforet the F-14 was design, the Phonix was tested on the F-111B!

Tim

I dont think the -7 was ever tested on the F-111B, they had a lot bigger priorities like trying to lose tons of weight. The B model was never produced, other than a few for testing, and was never operational.

Some of the technology did go to the F-14 but unfortunately the TF-30 engines did too.


[edit on 23-4-2007 by firepilot]

Originally posted by Ghost01
Now if the F-111 were being disign today instead of the F-35 JSF, what do you think might be different about it?

Well for a start Tim the F-111 would actually be able to do it's job, unlike the F-35

Seriously though you have actually approached the same question from a different angle as my "How different would the F-35 be if designed today?" thread.

Well for a start the F-111 would have the latest generation of engine's. probably an F-119 fitted with a conventional nozzle like the F-35's. As a result it would need redesigned inlets to account for the greater mass flow required for this class of engine. It might be possible to do it with the "Triple plow III" inlet design from the latter marques as well as some rescheduling of the inlet shock spike control. You would also need a tailpipe extension a la the F-14B/D and probably some reballasting as the F-119 is much lighter than the TF-30 or even the F-100/110 series. This would of course give a staggering performance increase and without doubt the ability to cruise supersonically.

A glass cockpit is a given and you would retain the two crew layout for all the obvious reasons. Add in an APG-77 class AESA radar and all the latest ISR goodies. You may also want to include the AESA side array antenna's from the F-35, the latest high bandwidth data terminals, and well given the size of the airframe the list can go on. Of course the radar package would also allow the carriage of all the latest munitions and importantly the provision for long range missiles like AMRAAM.

You might take the opportunity to replace some metal components with composites like wing skins. It may also be possible to do a little "house cleaning" on the airframe to reduce drag, particularly at supersonic speeds.

In the end you would have a longer ranging, more reliable, more agile, cheaper to run per sortie objective and far more deadly aircraft than the original F-111. And for that matter with the possible exception of agillity the F-35. Which if you have an APG-77 at 60,000 ft hooked up to AMRAAM's and your cruising supersoniclly you dont need anyway.

LEE.

Airpower Australia have come up with an evolved F-111 instead of buying
joint strike fighter (F 35)

link

including comparisons with F 35 F 22 F 18 and F 111

Why are the Aussies so intimidated by Indian capabilities in the Indian Ocean?

Recent reports indicate that India will soon deploy the Tu-22M-3 Backfire, armed with the potent Mach 2+ 200 NMI range Kh-22M/AS-4 Kitchen cruise missile, while it is completing a major upgrade to the Port Blair runway in the Andamans.

a/c pics fictitious insignia et all!!



While the backfire deal has mostly fallen through, the runway lengthening is definitely happening..

Originally posted by Jezza
Airpower Australia have come up with an evolved F-111 instead of buying
joint strike fighter (F 35)

link

Good Find Jezza! This is really intresting because it gives us a look at how the F-111 design is evolving over time. I guess in a way, you could kind of say that it shows a modern F-111 design.

Tim

Originally posted by thebozeian

Well for a start Tim the F-111 would actually be able to do it's job, unlike the F-35

Seriously though you have actually approached the same question from a different angle as my "How different would the F-35 be if designed today?" thread.
LEE.

Hey, I guess I did, didn't I! The F-111 was kind of the origional concept for a "Joint Strike Fighter" type of aircraft. Back then it was called Tactical Fighter Experimental (TFX). The origional idea was for a single aircraft that both the Air Force and the Navy could share (read Joint). The biggest problem besides weight, was that at the time, the Air Force and Navy were after two different planes for different missions. The Air Force version of the F-111 was the strik aircraft, while the Navy needed a fleet defense fighter.

As I see it, the biggest difference is that the F-111 was closer to a medium bomber in size and capibility. The F-35 on the other hand is more fighter size.

Tim

Its not India that our Aussie friends are concerned with.

I dont know if I would say the design is evolving just because someone has some more ideas for it. Unfortunately it is going to be probably retired from the Aussie air force in the next five years. Granted a lot more could be done with it, but its not not going to happen.

Carlos Kopps article does raise a lot of interesting possibilities, and I think a strike force of upgraded F-111s and combined with F-22s, would make them unbeatable in that part of the world. One of my friends who used to fly the varks contributed to his article.

Its just not going to happen though, at least on the F-111 side.

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Why are the Aussies so intimidated by Indian capabilities in the Indian Ocean

Not at all its a think tank highlighting regional capabilities.
Having the F-111 to politicians is like (punching above your weight)
in politics as to have big stick.
They also compare malaysian su-30s but they are close to australia
as well.

yea.. but I've noticied in on a few occasions..
There's been quite a lot of hullabaloo about the Indians acquiring SSNs and more carriers.
Also like someone mentioned before; there has been an in-depth flanker study by the Aussies.

Ghost01,
as a side point the USAF did indeed look into replacing the TF-30's with either F-100's or F110's around 1993-95. Preliminary investigations showed it would be feasible and cost effective based on the USN's experience with the F-14 TF-30 replacement program. Unfortunately the boneheads in Washington thought it would be cheaper to lay up the Aardvark and rely on it's F-16's, F-117 and F-15E force to pick up the slack. As a result the studies were terminated so we will never really no what performance and reliabillity gains would have been seen. However based on the Navy's experience with the F-110 powered F-14's, it's reasonable to assume that low level penetration speed, range, climb rate, takeoff distance and maintenance requirements would have all been improved, in some cases considerably.

You will also find that the Airpower Australia website has analysies of the F-35, Super Hornet and a host of other aircraft and missile systems, some covered in indepth technical analysis, so be warned guys Carlo Kopp can give you a headache but he generally knows his stuff.

LEE.

Ghost01 remember this thread a while ago

fb-111m

FB-111M-3

The -111 was one of those designs that was always ALMOST fixed. Even making a bunch of changes and upgrades to it probably won't fix its problems. I'd love to see it designed and built from the ground up today. It always had so much potential, and was always so close to being a great plane. Instead it was a maintenance intensive pig.

Originally posted by Jezza
Ghost01 remember this thread a while ago

fb-111m

FB-111M-3

Good catch, I forgot all about that thread Jezza. It's exploring many of the same issues I'm trying to look at with this thread. Thank you for the link!

Tim

Supersonic strike aircraft


1) maximum speed

F-15E Strike Eagle 2698 km/h
F-111 Fighting Aardvark 2650 km/h
MiG-23BN "Flogger-H" 2445 km/h
MiG-29SMT "Fulcrum-C" 2445 km/h
IAI Kfir 2440 km/h
F-4G Wild Weasel Phantom II 2391 km/h
Mirage 5 2350 km/h
Mirage F1CT 2350 km/h
Mirage 2000N 2338 km/h
Tornado IDS 2337 km/h
Mirage F2 2333 km/h
Su-24MK "Fencer-D" 2320 km/h
A-5A Vigilante 2229 km/h
F-105D Thunderchief 2208 km/h
F-16I Fighting Falcon 2175 km/h
MiG-21MF Lancer-A 2175 km/h
AJ37 Viggen 2125 km/h
Su-30M "Flanker-C" 2120 km/h
Su-7BKL "Fitter-A" 2150 km/h
F-107A 2084 km/h
Su-34 "Fullback" 1900 km/h
MiG-27K "Flogger-J2" 1885 km/h
Su-17M-4 "Fitter-K" 1860 km/h
Yak-28I "Brewer-C" 1850 km/h
Xian JH-7 "Flounder" 1808 km/h
Yak-41 "Freestyle" 1800 km/h
Mitsubishi F-1 1700 km/h
SEPECAT Jaguar 1593 km/h


2) rate of climb

MiG-29SMT "Fulcrum-C" 19825 m/min
Mirage 2000N 17100 m/min
F-15E Strike Eagle 16000 m/min
F-16I Fighting Falcon 15250 m/min
F-4G Wild Weasel Phantom II 15179 m/min
Yak-41 "Freestyle" 15000 m/min
MiG-23BN "Flogger-H" 14400 m/min
Kfir C7 13989 m/min
Su-30M "Flanker-C" 13800 m/min
Su-17M-4 "Fitter-K" 13800 m/min
Mirage F1CT 13400 m/min
MiG-21MF Lancer-A 12300 m/min
Tornado IDS 12192 m/min
F-107A 12160 m/min
AJ37 Viggen 12000 m/min
F-111F Fighting Aardvark 12000 m/min
MiG-27K "Flogger-J2" 12000 m/min
F-105D Thunderchief 11736 m/min
Mirage 5F 11160 m/min
Mitsubishi F-1 10670 m/min
Su-7BKL "Fitter-A" 9600 m/min
Su-24MK "Fencer-D" 9000 m/min
Nanchang Q-5 "Fantan" 6180 m/min
SEPECAT Jaguar 6076 m/min
A-5A Vigilante 2436 m/min


3) ceiling

F-111 Fighting Aardvark 20100 m
Mirage F1CT 20000 m
Mirage F2 20000 m
MiG-29SMT "Fulcrum-C" 18500 m
MiG-23BN "Flogger-H" 18500 m
F-4G Wild Weasel Phantom II 18300 m
AJ37 Viggen 18300 m
F-15E Strike Eagle 18288 m
MiG-21MF Lancer-A 18200 m
F-16I Fighting Falcon 18000 m
Mirage 2000N 18000 m
Mirage 5 18000 m
IAI Kfir 17680 m
Su-7BKL "Fitter-A" 17600 m
Su-30M "Flanker-C" 17300 m
F-107A 16220 m
Yak-29I "Brewer-C" 16200 m
Xian JH-7 "Flounder" 16000 m
A-5A Vigilante 15880 m
Yak-41 "Freestyle" 15500 m
Tornado IDS 15240 m
Mitsubishi F-1 15240 m
Su-34 "Fullback" 15000 m
F-105D Thunderchief 14800 m
Yak-28I "Brewer-C" 14500 m
Su-17M-4 "Fitter-K" 14200 m
SEPECAT Jaguar 14000 m
MiG-27K "Flogger-J2" 14000 m
Su-24MK "Fencer-D" 11000 m


4) engine thrust

F-15E Strike Eagle 258 kN
Su-34 "Fullback" 245.2 kN
Su-30M "Flanker-C" 245.16 kN
F-111 Fighting Aardvark 224 kN
Su-24MK "Fencer-D" 219.6 kN
Xian JH-7 "Flounder" 182.52 kN
MiG-29SMT "Fulcrum-C" 162.8 kN
F-4G Wild Weasel Phantom II 158.8 kN
Tornado IDS 153.6 kN
A-5A Vigilante 152 kN
Yak-41 "Freestyle" 152 kN
F-16I Fighting Falcon 129.6 kN
MiG-23BN "Flogger-H" 127 kN
MiG-27K "Flogger-J2" 123 kN
F-105D Thunderchief 118 kN
AJ37 Viggen 115.7 kN
Yak-28 "Brewer" 112.8 kN
Su-17M-4 "Fitter-K" 109.8 kN
F-107A 109 kN
Mirage 2000N 95.1 kN
Su-7BKL "Fitter-A" 94.1 kN
Mirage F2 89 kN
IAI Kfir 79.62 kN
Mitsubishi F-1 71.2 kN
Mirage F1CT 70.21 kN
SEPECAT Jaguar 65 kN
MiG-21MF Lancer-A 63.7 kN
Mirage 5 60.80 kN



5A) weapons payload

F-111 Fighting Aardvark 14300 kg
F-15E Strike Eagle 11000 kg
Tornado IDS 9000 kg
Xian JH-7 "Flounder" 9000 kg
F-4G Wild Weasel Phantom II 8480 kg
Su-30M "Flanker-C" 8000 kg
Su-34 "Fullback" 8000 kg
Su-24MK "Fencer-D" 8000 kg
F-16I Fighting Falcon 7700 kg
F-105D Thunderchief 6350 kg
Mirage 2000N 6300 kg
Mirage F1CT 6300 kg
IAI Kfir 5775 kg
SEPECAT Jaguar 4540 kg
F-107A 4500 kg
Mirage 5 4000 kg
MiG-27K "Flogger-J2" 4000 kg
Su-17M-4 "Fitter-K" 4000 kg
AJ37 Viggen 3600 kg
MiG-29SMT "Fulcrum-C" 3500 kg
MiG-23BN "Flogger-H" 3000 kg
Yak-28 "Brewer" 3000 kg
Mitsubishi F-1 2720 kg
Yak-41 "Freestyle" 2600 kg
A-5A Vigilante 2270 kg
Su-7BKL "Fitter-A" 2000 kg
MiG-21MF Lancer-A 1500 kg


5B) cannon rounds

F-111F Fighting Aardvark 2084 (20 mm)
F-105D Thunderchief 1028 (20 mm)
F-15E Strike Eagle 940 (20 mm)
F-107A 800 (20 mm)
Mitsubishi F-1 750 (20 mm)
F-16I Fighting Falcon 515 (20 mm)
Su-24MK "Fencer-D" 500 (23 mm)
Tornado IDS 360 (27 mm)
Mirage F1CT 300 (30 mm)
SEPECAT Jaguar 300 (30 mm)
Xian JH-7 "Flounder" 300 (23 mm)
IAI Kfir 280 (30 mm)
MiG-27K "Flogger-J2" 260 (30 mm)
Mirage 5 250 (30 mm)
MiG-21MF Lancer-A 200 (23 mm)
MiG-23BN "Flogger-H" 200 (23 mm)
Su-34 "Fullback" 180 (30 mm)
Su-17M-4 "Fitter-K" 160 (30 mm)
Su-7BKL "Fitter-A" 160 (30 mm)
AJ37 Viggen 150 (30 mm)
Su-30M "Flanker-C" 150 (30 mm)
MiG-29SMT "Fulcrum-C" 150 (30 mm)
Yak-41 "Freestyle" 120 (30 mm)


6) maximum range

F-111 Fighting Aardvark 6760 km
F-16I Fighting Falcon 4200 km
Mirage 5 4000 km
Su-34 "Fullback" 4000 km
F-15E Strike Eagle 3900 km
Tornado IDS 3890 km
F-107A 3885 km
Xian JH-7 "Flounder" 3700 km
F-105D Thunderchief 3550 km
SEPECAT Jaguar 3525 km
Mirage 2000N 3340 km
IAI Kfir 3200 km
Su-30M "Flanker-C" 3000 km
F-4G Wild Weasel Phantom II 3000 km
Yak-41 "Freestyle" 3000 km
A-5A Vigilante 2909 km
MiG-29SMT "Fulcrum-C" 2900 km
Mitsubishi F-1 2870 km
MiG-23BN "Flogger-H" 2820 km
Su-24MK "Fencer-D" 2775 km
MiG-27K "Flogger-J2" 2500 km
Su-17M-4 "Fitter-K" 2300 km
AJ37 Viggen 2250 km
Mirage F1CT 2200 km
Yak-28I "Brewer-C" 2070 km
MiG-21MF Lancer-A 1800 km
Su-7BKL "Fitter-A" 1650 km


7) production

Su-17/20/22 "Fitter" 2867
Su-7 "Fitter" 1847
Su-24 "Fencer" 1400
MiG-27 "Flogger" 1075
Tornado IDS/ECR 992
F-105 Thunderchief 833
MiG-23BN "Flogger-H" 624
Mirage 5 / IAI Nesher/Dagger/Finger 582
F-111 Fighting Aardvark 563
SEPECAT Jaguar 543
F-15E Strike Eagle 334
IAI Kfir 220
Xian JH-7 "Flounder" 192
MiG-29 SMT "Fulcrum-C" 150
EF-4C/D / F-4G Wild Weasel Phantom II 172
A-5 Vigilante 156
AJ37 Viggen 110
F-16I Fighting Falcon 102
Mitsubishi F-1 77
Mirage 2000N 75
MiG-21M/MF Lancer-A 75
Su-30M/MK "Flanker-C" 68
Mirage F1CT 57
Su-34 "Fullback" 20
F-107A 3
Yak-41 "Freestyle" 2
Mirage F2 1