Proof That God Does Not Exist ! (updated), page 17

Originally posted by Enlightened
Lilbam,

Chew on this for a while. It is scientifically impossible for the universe to have always just been. Period....

If it is possible for your GOD to always have existed, then it is possible for everything to always have existed. Although, it is not possible if time is real, because this would mean that infinity had to occur before we could be created.

1. An infinite number of moments cannot be traversed.

There are no moments, as there is no time. All is one, and exists simultaneously. There are only an infinite number of possibilities/dimentions/focus points of perception. One can traverse all, which is infinity, if one is one with all.

2. If an infinite number of moments had to elapse before today, then today would never had come.
3. But, today has come.

PRECISELY! THANK YOU! I love you! You understand now why TIME cannot exist, otherwise if it does, then the universe could not possibly be eternal, otherwise it would create a contradiction which you outlined above, and which is the entire basis of my thread about TIME. Since you understand this, then you see the dillema: Either the universe was created, or time doesn't exist. The only outcome here is that time doesn't exist, because then GOD would have to have waited an infinity of "moments" before he created the universe, and one cannot wait infinity, as then it would not be INFINITE now would it.

4. Therefore, an infinite number of moments have not elapsed before today(i.e., the universe had a beginning).

Once again, I could hug you right now just for saying this. I've been trying to get this exact thing across to people with no avail, and now you just tell ME this! Now we can work from here and see if we could come to a mutual understanding perhaps?

5. But whatever has a beginning is caused by something else.

Right, unless something HAS no beginning (which won't work if time is real) in which case: Time doesn't exist, and the universe exists as an infinite number of possibilities simultaneously, and only by focusing on specific realities (possibilities) in a sequential way does one create the illusion of space and TIME!

6. Hence, there must be a Cause (Creator) of the universe.
7. Creator=God.

Yes, but you're still thinking in linear time terms, in terms of "Creator, created". In terms of: It wasn't there BEFORE it was created, then it was CREATED and henceforth it exists. However, why do you allow God to spend an infinity of moments BEFORE creating the universe, as you stated that if he did that, then it would NOT be infinity.

There is an easy way out for you right now, by saying that "because God is infinite, he can traverse infinity" which would be TRUE, however, this would then require God to BE the creation. This is because you cannot be infinite and not include something (as EVERYTHING is part of infinity) as part of yourself. Nothing can be outside God! God is all there is! One does not hide from the infinite consciousness that permeates all things, all minds, all realities. God is all-seeing and all-knowing, and the only way to see ALL when all equals infinity, is to BE the all. A finite being cannot see an infinite reality in its entirety, and the only way a being can see the ENTIRETY of infinity, is to become this infinity, to be ONE with it.

I KNOW you understand this, so I think this discussion can actually lead us somewhere, instead of just playing ping pong with words.

Your buddy Carl Sagan said this
. He noted that the genetic info in the brain if expressed in bits is probably comparable to the total number of connections among neurons-about 100 Trillion bits. If written out in English, say, that info would fill some 20 million volumes, as many as are stored in the worlds largest libraries. The equivalent of 20 million books inside your heads of every one of us. He went on to say that "neurochemistry of the brain is astonishingly busy, the circuitry of a machine more wonderful than any devised by humans." But if this is so, then why does the human brain not need an intelligent Creator, as does even the simplest computer???

Answer me that??

No no, you misunderstand. Creator it has, but this creation does not have to be based in TIME. What I mean is, all that exists always exists, and we are part of all that exists, which is consciousness, pure thought, the spiritual realm: the realm of knowledge. You don't suppose an infinite being takes "time" and creates things in sequence, as obviously anything that he creates he already KNEW beforehand, and obviously this "creation" was already existing WITHIN that infinite being. Therefore, all exists ALWAYS within God, which is all that is, and only our individual focus on specific space-time locators and realities manifest the illusion of time and physicality. All there is is lessons.

EVERYTHING that exists is by design, by intelligent design of the creator. However, it was all designed simultaneously, and is ALWAYS being designed, because there is no LIMIT to creation, all has been created and always exists: This is VERY hard to grasp for our linear minds, that are deeply rooted in "time". Try to understand, it is possible to understand. Think about this, I am not trying to convince you of anything, just THINK about this, I KNOW you already know this, as you brought up excellent points. Now please connect the dots!

Why couldn't you bring this up before? I'm actually EXCITED now that you express certain understandings that are key to figuring some of these things out, if only conceptually. You're right, a finite being (at least one of finite awareness) cannot GRASP infinity, but the being, as everything else, is POTENTIALLY infinite, and as long as that potential exists, we can keep growing and expanding, until ONENESS with God/Universe can be achieved. Our minds are infinite (not our brains, but I mean our consciousness, which is not physical per se) but our AWARENESS is strictly retarded at this point.

By expanding our awareness, we access more and more of GOD, more and more of universal consciousness, more and more of knowledge that ETERNALLY EXISTS in the universe as part of GOD, as part of ALL THAT EXISTS. It is upto the individual to make the choice to SEEK this knowledge. The universe, however, is always balanced! There will always be the same amount of consciousness units that seek service to self orientation as there are those who seek service to others. This means that ignorance and knowledge balance each other. Ying Yang. Positive Negative. Being, Non-being. Light, Darkness.

Although this is subjective, I am currently extremely happy that you brought some of these things up. I'm jumping for joy inside

Now can we continue the discussion and hopefully have this discussion yield some priceless FRUIT?

1. If God exists, we must concieve of him as a necessary Being.
2. But by definition, a Necessary Being cannot not exist.
3. Therefore, if a Necessary Being can, then it must , exist.

Don't limit this to just a BEING, expand it to consciousness, to ALL there is. God permeates ALL. We are a reflection of his being, encapsulated in limited awareness. We are GOD who is trying to experience EVERYTHING THERE IS TO EXPERIENCE. We are part of reality created by God, and that ALWAYS EXISTS (because there's no time) that manifests in an absolutely LIMITLESS and BOUNDLESS variety. God wants to know/experience all that there is to possibly know/experience, and there is no limit to such! Time is only an illusion which is necessary as part of the ALL, because illusions of all kinds are simply part of experiencing all that there is to experience.

Non-linear concepts, but not impossible to understand. Once you do, you begin to SEE and you begin to understand the framework of the universe, of our reality, of God. Let not your mind be prejudiced with dogmas and beliefs that are imposed upon you for the purpose of enticing worship using temptations like "heaven" and threats like "hell". Let your mind be FREE and fearless as it explores all possibilities, and questions EVERYTHING to find out the truth.

Seek, and ye shall receive. And the truth shall set you free.

Those words have very deep meaning indeed. Thanks for your reply