Proof That God Does Not Exist ! (updated)

Whatever liblam. Im not going to argue with you anymore. I know that God is real. Im not going to participate in this topic anymore. I have said what i wanted to. Im not going to argue further on.

[Edited on 25-4-2004 by AD5673]

Lilbam,


You really have to be one of the most ignorant people I have ever conversed with but I do enjoy it. What is your IQ BTW?? I would love to talk face to face so that I could you ask you trapping questions in which you could not answer to make you feel well, Stupid.... You have already trapped yourself by saying the world is the way it is for a reason. Think about that for a while I doubt you will figure it out. Well, it may take you well past your lifetime to do it. Anyway, you seem like a great guy just very fooled by what you think is your free will to choose to do and think whatever you wish. That in itself is a completely false reality. The universe is governed, no not by itself(I.E. its' own matter), but rather by highly complex laws of reason. Lilbam, and no laws do not just come into being by random chance and happening but they are ordered by an intelligence higher than our own. Even if you could somehow live to be infinite you would still be controlled by the parameters of your own existance, that is human. Remember, finite can not understand infinite. Now I know Lilbam that that is a hard concept for you to understand but just hold on and you might make it. I'll walk you through it until your little mind catches up to it....

[Edited on 25-4-2004 by Enlightened]

You can't disprove the existence of God for many reasons. One is the concept of absolute knowledge the other is the very definition of God.

The defenition of God that I use is that he is limitless. ie. to say

"God can't do this or God can't do that because of this that or the other reason",

is just futile and pointless because you are putting a limit on God. I believe this is the only true definition of God beacuse if God does have a limitation or is a created being then he can not be God.

If God created us and the vastness of the universe and the physical laws that we barely understand then its just silly to claim that we can reason that he doesn't exist with our puny intellect. We can only understand as much of God as he chooses to make available and that we choose to take notice of.

Humankind needs to get it into its thick head that we are nothing and that God is everything. The problem is we hate the idea that we are not in control so we try to reason that God doesn't exist.

If God exists, then he makes all the rules and ultimately everyone will find out.

Originally posted by Zuzubar
My Follow up Questions and Comments

1.God is real.

Assumption, please back it up. Nothing is true or false by default, or just by someone exclaming it is. What's the logic here?

2.How do you think the Universe came together without god?

It never came together, you're implying the existance of time, which doesn't exist.

3.Are you an atheist now, or are you a christian or jew?

Truth seeker. Apply any label you wish.

4.Keep your opinions to yourself

Is this an order?

5.What gives your theory a 100% guarantee?

Nothing has a 100% guarantee if you ignore objective reality and logic. Does 2+2=4 have a 100% guarantee? Not really, sometimes 2+2=11. My theory can only have 100% guarantee if you wish to open your mind and think about it objectively. If you assume and argue just to support your BELIEFS, which are not based in reality, then nothing will have a 100% guarantee, even things that are objectively true and can be KNOWN. If you do not know, you do not know. The difference is, if you do not SEEK to know, then you'll never know, even though the knowledge will be available to you if only you were to choose to seek it. Therefore, I cannot prove anything to you that you do not wish to seek the truth of yourself.

6.Why are you angry at me and other people.

I'm not angry at anyone at all.

7.I think your theory needs more research. The existence of god can not be proved wrong in a few posts.

I think it needs more research too. The problem is the definition of God. It's like saying: BLAH exists. Well, Blah by itself means nothing, one should then define what Blah is in order to demonstrate whether it exists. However, even after you are able to easily DEMONSTRATE its existance or lack thereof using logical deduction and other evidence, this doesn't provide proof. I can say 2+2=4, and you can say "No it doesn't, I believe it's 5!" And nothing I say will change your mind, if you believe it's 5.

I hope you at least see the correlation here, that if you do not wish to see something, you do not see it, no matter how much evidence/data there is to support its existance (or lack thereof). I wish to objectively see truth, and therefore I do not have a predetermined belief in regards to God, I simply wish to know whether he exists. I am now able to rule out certain VERSIONS of God which I know for fact do not exist, based on my understanding of how reality works, which is concrete and 100% absolute. I cannot make you understand it, it's upto you to give it some thought, if you are indeed trying to determine the truth. Otherwise, there are no guarantees. You are your own guarantee.

8.Do you still believe in God?

I don't believe, I know God exists, and at the same doesn't. What I mean is, certain definitions of God are obviously false, and some definitions are true. It all depends on what you define God to be. I don't believe anything, I seek to know everything.

9.Do you believe you are god?

I don't believe anything, but I happen to know that I am God. There is no difference between God and me.

10.No I don't actually want to be a god despite my signature.
Go ahead prove me wrong

NOTHING can be proven to he who does not wish to see, period. Therefore, proof doesn't exist, only knowledge. If you wish to have knowledge, you shall have it. If you wish to have proof, you're out of luck. The only way to know, is to SEEK and put effort into trying to find out. This knowledge will never and has never been obtained without seeking it yourself. If you do not wish to know, you will not. At this point, you do not wish to know, as you do not seek it.

Originally posted by Jakko
Well, I think we came to a point where you can no longer tell me anything new. It seems clear to me you think your mind is infinite, that your mind has no limits and that any form of faith in something you can't prove is something to be "freed of".

You can prove nothing, there is only knowledge. Either you seek it, or you do not. You cannot prove to another what he does not wish to see and refuses to see. It's upto him to understand it, if he chooses to. What I am freeing myself from is lies and illusions that the overwhelmingly vast majority of humanity willingly accepts. If you feel sorry for me for trying to seek truth instead of believing lies, then that is your choice.

I feel sorry for you. It's sad to see the most intelligent people get tackled by their own thinking like this.
I really do hope you will somehow learn that not everything can be contained by your mind and that some answers can only be found by truly listening to what God has to say, instead of making up an answer yourself.

Oh? And how does God speak to you? Through his holy books? And you know this because the holy books say so? Right.

As weird as this may sound, right now Satan is using something that was ment to be for the best, for the worst, namely your intelligence and desire to learn new things.

Satan is an allegory for human race. Human race is Satan. There are no beings called "God" or "Satan", that's a lie, and an obvious one if you just open your mind.

But this strategy is also used by God sometimes, and I hope He will pull you back.
All the best to you, and let's not drag this on as long as we can, endless repeation is not a good thing on forums. I hope we can at least agree on that.

Good and Bad is subjective, but endless repetition creates clutter and doesn't serve to increase anyone's knowledge, since it's already available ONCE and if people chose to ignore it the first time, it was their choice. However, if I've already answered certain things, why would one ignore this and ask the same question that has already been asked? I'll have to just keep saying "already answered in previous post" each time...

OK,
I know I said bye on page 16, however, given the subsequent posts, I thought I'd pull this forward with one last thought after my quote.

Originally posted by CommonSense
Bye,
This thread's been around too long and is going nowhere with its pseudo-philosophical arguments, obfuscation of the issues and answers to questions not asked.

[Edited on 25-4-2004 by CommonSense]

To the Mods, I really think it's time to lock this one down. It's going nowhere. If you look at the posts, and the history of lilblam, I really think he's just trolling for points.

Enough said. I believe, I will always believe, but I will always be available to discuss differing opinions in good faith with people seeking the truth. Again, trolling for points, or just being obstinate, errh, I don't think so!

Originally posted by Enlightened
Lilbam,


You really have to be one of the most ignorant people I have ever conversed with but I do enjoy it. What is your IQ BTW??

Yes, if he who seeks knowledge is ignorant then you've just come up with your own definition of ignorance. My IQ is irrelavant to this discussion.

I would love to talk face to face so that I could you ask you trapping questions in which you could not answer to make you feel well, Stupid....

Yes, you feed on making people feel stupid don't you? It brings certain pleasure to you, making you feel smarter somehow. I'm sorry to say, you won't succeed quite so easily with me in this endeavor, simply because I don't rush to answer without thinking. So far, your lack of understanding of what I've been saying doesn't say much for your purported "high IQ", does it.

You have already trapped yourself by saying the world is the way it is for a reason. Think about that for a while I doubt you will figure it out.

Trapped? Everything is the way it is for a reason: Cause and Effect. By trying to change the world, you make a subjective judgement that there's something wrong with it and it needs changing, and THAT is the trap, because you are now making choices based on subjectivity, which is an illusion.

Well, it may take you well past your lifetime to do it. Anyway, you seem like a great guy just very fooled by what you think is your free will to choose to do and think whatever you wish.

All have free will. Not all choose to exercise it, and many give their will away to imaginary entities and let themselves be controlled.

That in itself is a completely false reality. The universe is governed, no not by itself(I.E. its' own matter), but rather by highly complex laws of reason. Lilbam, and no laws do not just come into being by random chance and happening but they are ordered by an intelligence higher than our own.

I never said anything was "by chance". That is your assumption, based on your own ignorance, because assumptions are ONLY made when one submits to ignorant. You choose to assume, and this won't lead you to truth. Once again, NOTHING happens by chance.

Even if you could somehow live to be infinite you would still be controlled by the parameters of your own existance, that is human. Remember, finite can not understand infinite.

It cannot know every aspect of infinity, because infinity has no limit, but lucky me, my mind is infinite, it's only my awareness that is limited. For the "time" being, anyway.

Now I know Lilbam that that is a hard concept for you to understand but just hold on and you might make it. I'll walk you through it until your little mind catches up to it....

[Edited on 25-4-2004 by Enlightened]

All minds are equal, but assume as you like. Knowledge protects, ignorance endangers. The concept is flawed in that you assume that the finite cannot know what is possible, just by not being aware of it. I don't have to be aware and present and INFINITE in awareness in order to tell you what is possible and what is not. This much you seem to not understand

Originally posted by TenPin
You can't disprove the existence of God for many reasons. One is the concept of absolute knowledge the other is the very definition of God.

God is knowledge. God exists!

The defenition of God that I use is that he is limitless. ie. to say

"God can't do this or God can't do that because of this that or the other reason",

is just futile and pointless because you are putting a limit on God.

I never said what God can or cannot do. God is all there is. This is the only way he can be limitless, and this is the only way he can be God, and this is the only way God can ever possibly exist. Anything less than infinity would not be God, now would it? There is no difference between me and God, we're one and the same. My mind is limitless, and 2 things that are limitless are precisely the same thing.

I believe this is the only true definition of God beacuse if God does have a limitation or is a created being then he can not be God.

PRECISELY! But religious definitions give God all kinds of limitations and say "he won't do this" or "he can't do that" or "he is this or that" when all they are doing is just making things up in order to build a following and establish a system of control, using emotional and psychological control methods. There is no all-powerful entity, that is a lie, and is easily seen for what it is, if one uses logic.

If God created us and the vastness of the universe and the physical laws that we barely understand then its just silly to claim that we can reason that he doesn't exist with our puny intellect.

Puny maybe, but don't underestimate the power of the puny
We can reason and KNOW it conceptually, we do not need to EXPERIENCE it to know it conceptually. Logic is a great tool, use it!

We can only understand as much of God as he chooses to make available and that we choose to take notice of.

ALL is available, it's just we aren't aware (don't take notice) of most of it. Most people say "We cannot know this, because our minds are not big enough" and don't even try. Those who try however, FIND this knowledge, and move on to greater awareness and understanding of reality.

Humankind needs to get it into its thick head that we are nothing and that God is everything. The problem is we hate the idea that we are not in control so we try to reason that God doesn't exist.

God and humans are one and the same. The creator is the creation and vice versa.

If God exists, then he makes all the rules and ultimately everyone will find out.

Ultimately yes, but some sooner than others

Originally posted by CommonSense
OK,
I know I said bye on page 16, however, given the subsequent posts, I thought I'd pull this forward with one last thought after my quote.

Originally posted by CommonSense
Bye,
This thread's been around too long and is going nowhere with its pseudo-philosophical arguments, obfuscation of the issues and answers to questions not asked.

[Edited on 25-4-2004 by CommonSense]

To the Mods, I really think it's time to lock this one down. It's going nowhere. If you look at the posts, and the history of lilblam, I really think he's just trolling for points.

Enough said. I believe, I will always believe, but I will always be available to discuss differing opinions in good faith with people seeking the truth. Again, trolling for points, or just being obstinate, errh, I don't think so!

Hey I thought you were leaving? Well welcome back to the discussion, I knew you couldn't stay away! Your ego has too much of a hold on your mind, to let you just leave without attempting to impose some control, even if futile.

[Edited on 25-4-2004 by lilblam]

As He said,
It is finished.

Lilbam,


Chew on this for a while. It is scientifically impossible for the universe to have always just been. Period....

1. An infinite number of moments cannot be traversed.
2. If an infinite number of moments had to elapse before today, then today would never had come.
3. But, today has come.
4. Therefore, an infinite number of moments have not elapsed before today(i.e., the universe had a beginning).
5. But whatever has a beginning is caused by something else.
6. Hence, there must be a Cause (Creator) of the universe.
7. Creator=God.


Your buddy Carl Sagan said this
. He noted that the genetic info in the brain if expressed in bits is probably comparable to the total number of connections among neurons-about 100 Trillion bits. If written out in English, say, that info would fill some 20 million volumes, as many as are stored in the worlds largest libraries. The equivalent of 20 million books inside your heads of every one of us. He went on to say that "neurochemistry of the brain is astonishingly busy, the circuitry of a machine more wonderful than any devised by humans." But if this is so, then why does the human brain not need an intelligent Creator, as does even the simplest computer???

Answer me that??


1. If God exists, we must concieve of him as a necessary Being.
2. But by definition, a Necessary Being cannot not exist.
3. Therefore, if a Necessary Being can, then it must , exist.

Originally posted by Enlightened
Lilbam,


Chew on this for a while. It is scientifically impossible for the universe to have always just been. Period....

If it is possible for your GOD to always have existed, then it is possible for everything to always have existed. Although, it is not possible if time is real, because this would mean that infinity had to occur before we could be created.

1. An infinite number of moments cannot be traversed.

There are no moments, as there is no time. All is one, and exists simultaneously. There are only an infinite number of possibilities/dimentions/focus points of perception. One can traverse all, which is infinity, if one is one with all.

2. If an infinite number of moments had to elapse before today, then today would never had come.
3. But, today has come.

PRECISELY! THANK YOU! I love you! You understand now why TIME cannot exist, otherwise if it does, then the universe could not possibly be eternal, otherwise it would create a contradiction which you outlined above, and which is the entire basis of my thread about TIME. Since you understand this, then you see the dillema: Either the universe was created, or time doesn't exist. The only outcome here is that time doesn't exist, because then GOD would have to have waited an infinity of "moments" before he created the universe, and one cannot wait infinity, as then it would not be INFINITE now would it.

4. Therefore, an infinite number of moments have not elapsed before today(i.e., the universe had a beginning).

Once again, I could hug you right now just for saying this. I've been trying to get this exact thing across to people with no avail, and now you just tell ME this! Now we can work from here and see if we could come to a mutual understanding perhaps?

5. But whatever has a beginning is caused by something else.

Right, unless something HAS no beginning (which won't work if time is real) in which case: Time doesn't exist, and the universe exists as an infinite number of possibilities simultaneously, and only by focusing on specific realities (possibilities) in a sequential way does one create the illusion of space and TIME!

6. Hence, there must be a Cause (Creator) of the universe.
7. Creator=God.

Yes, but you're still thinking in linear time terms, in terms of "Creator, created". In terms of: It wasn't there BEFORE it was created, then it was CREATED and henceforth it exists. However, why do you allow God to spend an infinity of moments BEFORE creating the universe, as you stated that if he did that, then it would NOT be infinity.

There is an easy way out for you right now, by saying that "because God is infinite, he can traverse infinity" which would be TRUE, however, this would then require God to BE the creation. This is because you cannot be infinite and not include something (as EVERYTHING is part of infinity) as part of yourself. Nothing can be outside God! God is all there is! One does not hide from the infinite consciousness that permeates all things, all minds, all realities. God is all-seeing and all-knowing, and the only way to see ALL when all equals infinity, is to BE the all. A finite being cannot see an infinite reality in its entirety, and the only way a being can see the ENTIRETY of infinity, is to become this infinity, to be ONE with it.

I KNOW you understand this, so I think this discussion can actually lead us somewhere, instead of just playing ping pong with words.

Your buddy Carl Sagan said this
. He noted that the genetic info in the brain if expressed in bits is probably comparable to the total number of connections among neurons-about 100 Trillion bits. If written out in English, say, that info would fill some 20 million volumes, as many as are stored in the worlds largest libraries. The equivalent of 20 million books inside your heads of every one of us. He went on to say that "neurochemistry of the brain is astonishingly busy, the circuitry of a machine more wonderful than any devised by humans." But if this is so, then why does the human brain not need an intelligent Creator, as does even the simplest computer???

Answer me that??

No no, you misunderstand. Creator it has, but this creation does not have to be based in TIME. What I mean is, all that exists always exists, and we are part of all that exists, which is consciousness, pure thought, the spiritual realm: the realm of knowledge. You don't suppose an infinite being takes "time" and creates things in sequence, as obviously anything that he creates he already KNEW beforehand, and obviously this "creation" was already existing WITHIN that infinite being. Therefore, all exists ALWAYS within God, which is all that is, and only our individual focus on specific space-time locators and realities manifest the illusion of time and physicality. All there is is lessons.

EVERYTHING that exists is by design, by intelligent design of the creator. However, it was all designed simultaneously, and is ALWAYS being designed, because there is no LIMIT to creation, all has been created and always exists: This is VERY hard to grasp for our linear minds, that are deeply rooted in "time". Try to understand, it is possible to understand. Think about this, I am not trying to convince you of anything, just THINK about this, I KNOW you already know this, as you brought up excellent points. Now please connect the dots!

Why couldn't you bring this up before? I'm actually EXCITED now that you express certain understandings that are key to figuring some of these things out, if only conceptually. You're right, a finite being (at least one of finite awareness) cannot GRASP infinity, but the being, as everything else, is POTENTIALLY infinite, and as long as that potential exists, we can keep growing and expanding, until ONENESS with God/Universe can be achieved. Our minds are infinite (not our brains, but I mean our consciousness, which is not physical per se) but our AWARENESS is strictly retarded at this point.

By expanding our awareness, we access more and more of GOD, more and more of universal consciousness, more and more of knowledge that ETERNALLY EXISTS in the universe as part of GOD, as part of ALL THAT EXISTS. It is upto the individual to make the choice to SEEK this knowledge. The universe, however, is always balanced! There will always be the same amount of consciousness units that seek service to self orientation as there are those who seek service to others. This means that ignorance and knowledge balance each other. Ying Yang. Positive Negative. Being, Non-being. Light, Darkness.

Although this is subjective, I am currently extremely happy that you brought some of these things up. I'm jumping for joy inside

Now can we continue the discussion and hopefully have this discussion yield some priceless FRUIT?

1. If God exists, we must concieve of him as a necessary Being.
2. But by definition, a Necessary Being cannot not exist.
3. Therefore, if a Necessary Being can, then it must , exist.

Don't limit this to just a BEING, expand it to consciousness, to ALL there is. God permeates ALL. We are a reflection of his being, encapsulated in limited awareness. We are GOD who is trying to experience EVERYTHING THERE IS TO EXPERIENCE. We are part of reality created by God, and that ALWAYS EXISTS (because there's no time) that manifests in an absolutely LIMITLESS and BOUNDLESS variety. God wants to know/experience all that there is to possibly know/experience, and there is no limit to such! Time is only an illusion which is necessary as part of the ALL, because illusions of all kinds are simply part of experiencing all that there is to experience.

Non-linear concepts, but not impossible to understand. Once you do, you begin to SEE and you begin to understand the framework of the universe, of our reality, of God. Let not your mind be prejudiced with dogmas and beliefs that are imposed upon you for the purpose of enticing worship using temptations like "heaven" and threats like "hell". Let your mind be FREE and fearless as it explores all possibilities, and questions EVERYTHING to find out the truth.

Seek, and ye shall receive. And the truth shall set you free.

Those words have very deep meaning indeed. Thanks for your reply

Time does not exist?
Time does exist, the only problem is that we are in time, and that God is not in time.
No matter how hard you try to get your little "infinite mind" around concepts like infinity and the defenition of time, you will not succeed.
To me this is knowledge. Knowing that some things can not be fully grasped by a human mind, not because we are not intelligent enough, but because fully understanding such concepts requires us to have seen/experienced certain things that humans have never experiened or seen.
You seem so desperate to find answers to these unanswerable questions that you hysterically start creating your own reality in the process, thinking that you're smart and "more limitless" over the rest of us.
You seem to assume certain things that are not result of knowledge but of your own fantasy.
Reality is just too complex for that.
Could you maybe explain why time would not exist? Cause I really wonder how you got to that stage.

Originally posted by lilblam

There is an easy way out for you right now, by saying that "because God is infinite, he can traverse infinity" which would be TRUE, however, this would then require God to BE the creation. This is because you cannot be infinite and not include something (as EVERYTHING is part of infinity) as part of yourself. Nothing can be outside God! God is all there is! One does not hide from the infinite consciousness that permeates all things, all minds, all realities. God is all-seeing and all-knowing, and the only way to see ALL when all equals infinity, is to BE the all. A finite being cannot see an infinite reality in its entirety, and the only way a being can see the ENTIRETY of infinity, is to become this infinity, to be ONE with it.

I KNOW you understand this, so I think this discussion can actually lead us somewhere, instead of just playing ping pong with words.

1. You do not know what infinite is. You may know that it's something that has no limits/no end but you do not fully understand what that word means.
Claiming that you do is not only arrogant, but it is also blocking your thoughts from actually ending up somewhere interesting. This exactly what I mean when I say that sometimes realizing you can't grasp something will actually lead to more knowledge, but you are not in this stage yet.

The only way for God to see and hear all, is by being all.

Another hysterical mind-jump, performed by someone unable to fully realize what he is talking about.
And that's not a bad thing, cause no human being can understand how God can hear and see us, while not being part of time. Not understanding this is not a bad thing, because we are not yet in a stage where we can understand it. People who still attempt to try to understand it all like yourself end up in discussions that make no sense whatsoever.

People do not like discussing with you (maybe you've allready noticed ;+)
This is not because you are unkind or disrespectfull because you're not. This is also not because you are dumb, because you are probably not dumb at all.
It's the quick assuming when we're talking about the most complex things that annoys others.
Your opinions, ideas, and theories are result of what you have seen and experienced in your (short) life.
Yet you talk as if you have seen it all, and as if you are the one human being that does understand things that "we normal people" don't.
This is of course ape#.
You do not know it all, and you never will.
Your desire to know it all is too strong for you to gain the knowledge that some things are not for humans to understand, so your version of truth will probably be a very interesting -but not valid- one.
Could you maybe, next time you repeat your "wisdom" also explain how you got to all those quick assumptions?

A little experiment.

What if you could create a computerprogram that has "objects" in it that think like humans.
Objects that are as complex as humans with an AI and thinking that's just as complex as humans.
Now you would also program the world around them, everything they see hear and feel would be part of your program. The interval at which a new "frame" is made for the entire world would be set to 0.1 second.

The "humans" in your program would live and die in this timeframe of a new "moment" every 0.1 second.
Not only would they not even notice their world is "advancing" pretty slowly, they would not even be able to ever find out about it without a reference to "an outside clock".
Because that reference would not exist, they would wonder how it all works, where they are coming from and what's happening.
The creator of this program (you) would be able to pause the program, without the objects in it ever noticing the world in which they live is paused. The creator of this program would be able to see and hear everything at all times, but He would not be part of his creation once.
He would see these "objects" trying to get their mind around concepts like infinity and time, and he would have a good laugh noticing the talk about the creator being everything in their world because the creator can see everything as well.
In the end it does not matter wether he would set the "speed" to 1 frame every 0.1 seconds, or 1 frame every 500 seconds. Nothing would change for the objects living in this world.

Of course this little story is not the exact situation we are in, but I think when I read stuff in the bible like "for God 1 second is like 1000 years and the other way around", a similar situation could be truth.
When you look at it like this, you also realize how pointless it is to try to understand things we can not see or understand without a direct reference to the place where God is.

If there is no God and Atheists firmly believe that why are they always arguing a point that is a clear attempt to steal anothers faith when they have nothing better to sell or anything to gain for that matter. Why not just be silent unless to ponder the fact that maybe it shouldn't all be in our ability to understand of course unless we are a clear cut narcicist and know all. If you are not God and clearly believe as you stated that nothing could create nothing then your good. However, for those of us that have seen things that defy your naturalistic realm, gravity and such...let's just say I'm a little more knowledgeable than you. But you too can have the knowlegde that you so vehemently seek. Your mind is closed because its already made up. If only you search and ask the right questions to the right God the truth will be disclosed to you.

I'm gonna get flamed :s.

God probably doesn't exist, BUT why does it matter if he doesn't exist or not? I feel safer knowing that there is a god and knowing that there is someone there to aid me, so i CHOOSE to believe in god because it makes me FEEL better not because he IS there and powerful and whatever.

Originally posted by Raye
However, for those of us that have seen things that defy your naturalistic realm, gravity and such...let's just say I'm a little more knowledgeable than you.

That's something you religious types always say, yet never explain. How about offering it up as evidence to help prove your view?

Originally posted by lilblam

Originally posted by Seapeople
Lilblam

You know the definition of the word, but can you fully understand infinity, visualize it? Comprehend it?

If I could visualize it, it would not be infinity. Comprehend it means understand it, and I already told you what it means!

Here is another question for you. What is the difference between the minerals in a rock, and those in a living creature?

If they are the same minerals then none. I don't know minerals though, so I don't know which minerals are where.

What makes the molecules that are bother the same in the rock and the creature different? Do you know?

If they are the same molecules, nothing. The way the molecules are "constructed" is what determines if it's a rock or a biological entity.

The same molecules, the same minerals. The same Atoms comprise everything. We are made up of the same elements as everything else on earth. There are molecules in our body that are the exact same as molecules outside of our body...in rocks for instance.

Now, what makes them different than molecules in our body. Why is the "Construction" of molecules in a rock not alive while the "construction" of molecules in our body is alive?

As far as infinity goes. The word was invented by a person. It was invented to describe a concept he could not understand. Just knowing the word does not indicate a full comprehension of it. For instance. You can know what the word indoctrinate means. Fully understanding that word does not mean you understand the indoctrination.

Originally posted by quiksilver
I'm gonna get flamed :s.

God probably doesn't exist, BUT why does it matter if he doesn't exist or not? I feel safer knowing that there is a god and knowing that there is someone there to aid me, so i CHOOSE to believe in god because it makes me FEEL better not because he IS there and powerful and whatever.

Noone gets flamed. ;+)
First of all, God does exist. I don't expect you to trust me on that, but after what I have seen in my life I can't be like "it's fine that you think he does not exist".
Cause it's not fine really.
It would be like "it's fine that you think 1+1=3, I respect your ignorance".
I don't respect your ignorance, but I respect you and I hope you will somehow find out about God, cause it makes your life have a lot more sense.
Of course like you said, some choose to believe in God because they want to. That's how it starts in a lot of cases. But at a certain age a lot of christians (including me) come to a point where they start wondering wether what they believe in is real.
I found out it is real, but not on the way I once wanted to find out.

I asked God for hard proof so many times, but it seemed as if my question did not make sense, I was not sure why.
Later on I realized that any "hard proof" God can give in a moment, is weak compared to the way He can show himself through a period of time.(a life for example)
It all has to do with how humans work. If God's existance would be proven through a miracle today, it would make me believe today. But as more time passes, more doubts about the "hard proof" would rise and in the end I will wonder wether it was not just my imagination, asking God for new proof.
The amount of miracles performed by Jesus and by all christians over time was never the main reason people started to believe. Even today miracles happen. Praying is not without effect, and even though in theory, one prayer leading to a miracle would be enough to convince the world of God's existance, the world is not convinced no matter how much proof they get. That's why superfacial miracles "just to proof Gods existance" almost never happen. Most miracles today have something to do with people being freed from diseases or evil entities. These miracles serve a purpose other then to prove Gods existance.

The best example of this is right on these forums.
If I would tell you what I have seen in my life that made me know for sure God exists, you would say things like:
- cool story, but I wasn't there
- that could have been coincidence
- you probably misunderstood the situation
- you were hallucinating

After a while of me trying to share my story, getting these responses I would start to doubt it myself.
Did I really see what I think I saw? Couldn't it have been coincidence?
And there goes Gods proof, and my faith based on that one moment.
God understands us better then we understand ourselves and he knows what proof you need for a lasting impact, and this is not often proof that lasts just one moment.