Proof That God Does Not Exist ! (updated)

Read the following 2 posts in FULL, and only then comment. If this doesn't convince you, then even death and not seeing God afterwards won't convince you either.. NOTHING will! Trust me these are mind blowing.

UPDATE: Read my last post in this thread, on the 5th page please. Big clarification was needed.

[Edited on 2-4-2004 by John bull 1]

[Edited on 3-4-2004 by lilblam]

[Edited on 3-4-2004 by lilblam]

THE CREATOR GOD STRIKES OUT!

Every possible form which energy and/or matter can take, must be in use and exists today in time and space. Why? Because we are always in the middle of Eternity. Eternity is a two way street. Eternity runs both ways don't you know. These forms will include universes about which we know nothing. It will include undiscovered transformations of energy/matter, and any other undiscovered condition, forms or expressions which energy and/or matter may take.

When we speak of a God here, we are only speaking of that concept fostered upon us by the Christian religion which claims that a God is the creator of all that is. They claim a God was preexistent. That is, before there was anything, there was a God.

By using this Christian definition, we are eliminating the many varied little concepts of a God. Most of those activities, miracles and controversies (if they are true) could also be attributed to some super race of long lived aliens, and they need not be classified as gods. Aliens could easily possess powers, technologies and abilities which seem god like to our infant science. But, they are only advancements which some day even we may possess. So we are only dealing with the Christian concept of a creator God.

To say that before anything existed, a God existed, is an oxymoron. Such a statement can neither be understood nor conceived by our minds. It can not possibly be true and here is why. If a God existed, then that God is something. And something is not nothing. So the universe could not have possibly come from nothing. It must have come from something. Thom's law explains that.

Thom's Law
"Nothing can not produce something. If there was ever a time when there was nothing, there would STILL be nothing."

So even a God (which is something) could not be produced by nothing. Therefore, if a God came into being, he must have come out of something. The only "something" which exists now and has always existed is that of energy and/or matter.

So, any God (or anything else) must be, or must have been, the product of something. Everything which is, must be a product of energy and/or matter.

Now that is strike one against the Christians who say that a God preexisted nothing. Or, as some say, a God coexisted with nothing. That is, while there was nothing, there was also a God. (Unless, of course, you wish to claim that God IS nothing. I could accept that claim, but then I would not be here would I? Proof enough. I am here.) So, you can not have a God (which is something) and say that before him, there was nothing. You must either start with a God, which is something (and came from something) or you must start with nothing. For sure, you can not have it both ways. If there is a God, he is something and something can not come out of nothing.

Strike two says, since there was something which must have predated a God, God could not have created everything. He could not have created himself if he was not himself to start with. God himself/herself/it would have to be developed from something that was NOT a God. God is claimed to have knowledge and character. Knowledge and character MUST be developed. It can not be decreed. It can not be magically waved into existence. Knowledge and character is a PRODUCT of life and living. It is a product of making wise and foolish choices. It is a product of growth.

Did a God have the knowledge to create or make a universe? Where did he develop that knowledge? It is inconceivable that God simply sneezed and the universe came into being. I don't think even the Christians would believe that.

To have the knowledge to create, or even to make a universe, God must have had some prior experience, some development, some trials and errors in how and why this worked and that did not. Also, the Christians attribute lots of wonderful attributes to their God. God is all good. God is all great. God is all just. God is all wise. God is all knowing. God is everywhere. God is all powerful, and so forth.

That is, the Christians give God a good, moral and powerful character. Now character can not be developed in a vacuum. Character must be developed by trial and error. Character must be developed by finding out what is good and what works. To do this one must also find out what is bad and does not work. Character must always answer the question, "Why?" in order to develop. Character is a growth process.

Therefore, there must have been other individuals and intelligences with whom God could interact in order to develop a good character. There must be at least a family of them. Therefore, God is not alone. So, other intelligence demands some type of setting in which they could interact. They must have a place, a home of sorts. So we now must allow God to have at least a family, a home and a setting, or a place of operating, in order to develop his character. So that is strike two against a creator God being by HIMSELF, and at the same time having both a good character and ultimate science knowledge. God could not decree himself a good character or vast scientific knowledge. He would not know what was good or what to decree. He must have developed that knowledge.

In addition to this, God talked! How could a God language develop without other like beings with whom to communicate. Come on now! Think about it!

Next, we come to strike three. If there was something out of which God came, then there was already material available to make a universe. That is, God could not possibly have created the universe. However, God could have MADE the universe. That is, he could have taken the material which was available and MADE the universe out of that.
The Christian information about a creation comes from a mistranslation of the Jewish Testament. The Jewish text reads:

"In beginning, the GODS MADE the heaven and the earth."

The Christians CHANGED that to read:

"In THE beginning, GOD CREATED the heaven and the earth."
In other words, the concept of a creation stems from a MISTRANSLATION - from a LIE. Think about that!

Either the God of the Old Testament made a mistake and used the word "made" when he should have used the word "create" in telling us about a beginning, or the New Testament God made a mistake and used the word "create" instead of the word "made" to describe a beginning. In other words, one of these Gods is lying to us. Which God is lying to us?

Since the Old Testament God told his tale first and then the New Testament God plagiarized his work, I must assume the New Testament God is the real liar in this case. Of course, if you do not wish to give the New Testament God the credit for this lie, you could give that credit to the writers of the holy book.

There are those Christians who say (in spite of Thom's law) that God did come out of nothing. I have some questions. Is God supposed to be greater than the universe? The Christians say, "Yes." Then why didn't NOTHING create something smaller or less significant than a God in its first effort at creation? Why didn't NOTHING do something simple first? How would NOTHING have the wisdom to make something more important and more complex than itself, more important and complex than the whole universe? Why didn't NOTHING make the universe first and then make a God?

How did NOTHING make a God when it had not yet discovered how to make the hydrogen atom? The effort of making a God would have challenged all the resources of NOTHING, which resources of course is zero. Hydrogen atoms would not have strained the efforts, knowledge and power of NOTHING nearly as much as making something greater than the universe.

Did you know that believers in all ages have created gods? Today believers can create too! They make lots of gods using only the twenty six letters of the English alphabet.

Now it is a fact, you can not put a strain on zero. You can multiply it. You can divide it. You can add it. You can kick zero around, abuse it, smash it, cast it aside and guess what? It is still a perfect zero. So I do here by declare ZERO to be the only perfect number in the universe. Nothing you can do to it changes the value of ZERO. It is always and for ever - ZERO. You just can not get anything out of ZERO except ZERO. And NOTHING is ZERO. And ZERO is NOTHING. A God did not and COULD NOT come out of ZERO.

So, the Christian concept of a creator God goes down on a called strike three. From now on, the creator God must take his seat on the bench next to the rest of the religious gods who struck out. A God could not have preexisted that from which he came. He could not create himself. He could not create the universe without vast knowledge which he must have learned by trial and error. He could not have learned without other intelligence with whom to interact. He could not have created the universe from nothing when material (energy/matter) was already available from which to make it. The creator God strikes out.

Since there is no creator God, maybe there is a Maker God. Let us examine that next.

Updated 07/08/03

Coming next: THE MAKER GOD IS THROWN OUT!

**Copied from www.jovialatheist.com and is NOT my work.

THE MAKER GOD IS THROWN OUT

We have moved from the impossible Christian oxymoron concept of a (creator) God, to a Jewish (maker) God concept which is more in keeping with our comprehension and understanding. But is this new God view valid? Did any God make the universe? Did the maker God sneeze and the universe came into being? Did he remark in his God language (to others), "Well, by Me! Look at THAT! What have I wrought? I think I will name it, THE UNIVERSE." No, my friends, I think not.

So, we must again face the need of vast knowledge. And to this we must also add PURPOSE! What would be the purpose of a God making a universe? What possibly COULD be the purpose? Did God really need and want a toy to play with? What do the Jews and Christians have to say about this?

Now, both the Jews and the Christians tell us that God does not need anything or anyone to make him satisfied. We are told that God is self sufficient. He is happy with himself. God is altogether perfect. We are told God is the same yesterday, today and forever. Yet, according to the writers of the holy book, we find God was NOT satisfied. He was not self sufficient, nor happy. God was lonesome, so he made at least a son and a ghost to keep him company. He also made his chess and game opponent - the Devil (Lucifer). It seems God DID need a toy to play with, so he made the universe and plays with it daily (according to the believers). Could it be that the universe and especially the earth, is the game board upon which God and the Devil play their games? Do they congratulate each other on wise moves? Do they wager on the outcome of the games? Does God ever lose? What kind of game would it be if you created an opponent who always loses? Even a God would not cheat like that - would he?

But God does not face the Devil alone. No! He has lots of advice on what moves to make. This advice is rendered daily (sometimes five times a day) by those who have appointed themselves as "God Advisors." These advisors call themselves BELIEVERS and proceed to advise and tell God what to do about life, the world and the universe. They call this strategic advise making - PRAYER.

Daily, and even hourly, God is bathed in the fervent prayers of the faithful believers. God seems to depend on these daily instructions and prayers to help him outline his vague work and play schedule. Without these constant instructions on how to conduct his business, play his games and run his universe, God would be at a loss to know if he should heal Aunt Mary or not. Without this advise (according to the believers), God would not know which team to let win the game (or the boxing match) (or the war).

Believers tell us God depends upon these polls from the snow white, granite minds to tell him what to do. Do the Christians really think God is the president of a democracy and daily waits for a consensus of public opinion before he knows what to do? Is it not possible God could do good, right and just things on his own without the guidance of the Christians and Jews? Am I getting this right?

These snow white, granite minds believe that God must have a consensus of public opinion, or else, he might just do the wrong thing and let Aunt Mary die. Or worst of all, God might just do nothing at all. But keep in mind, God is not lazy. He just needs some guidance. So God does stay busy because he gets a multitude of assignments. And let us not forget the many chores God must run for the granite minds.

There is a problem though. All of God's earthly advisors have less than a hundred years experience in the profession of "God Advisor" and certainly no more as "Divine Chore Supervisor". Now, this worries me! I am afraid they will misinform God. When God finds out he has been betrayed and led astray by his advisors on earth, he might decide to get rid of them (called the rapture). He might even clean the game board and in so doing decide to rid the earth of ALL earthlings (called apocalypse). We are told he almost did this once in the past (called the flood). Let us not provoke him into doing that again. I plead with all of you advisors, PLEASE! Let God run the world by himself and play his games without any advise from you! Let him make his own mistakes so we will not ALL be held liable.

About thirty years ago, God and I worked out an agreement. I promised I would let God be his own God and do his own thing, and God decided to let me be my own man and do my own thing. We are both very happy with the arrangement - especially God.

Why don't you make a similar agreement? It frees your mind and takes away the fear of the future. I live an honest life and let the future do with me as it sees fit. Whether you know it or not, the same will happen to you. Besides, a good God must love people who search for truth, who learn to use their minds which nature has graciously given us. Did you know any good and just God loves Atheists? Did you know a just God must be very disappointed in those who refuse to pursue truth, who refuse to look at BOTH sides of these important matters? Could it be that God will switch the name plates of hell and heaven?

There is something else here which bothers me. The snow white, granite minds have assumed divine prerogative and appointed themselves spies, scouts and monitors FOR God. They purpose to seek out and identify all the enemies of God. They then inform God who are his enemies. When God's justice is not swift and harsh on these newly invented enemies, the granite minds assume the divine prerogative of judge, jury and executioner. These Christians, who have classified Atheists as God's worst enemies, are at a loss why so many smart people become Atheists and yet live moral lives which are the envy of Christians.

The granite minds think God's patience is a vice. They do! They are afraid God will not be as expeditious and harsh in his judgment as they will. They do not trust God's justice. They do not trust his opinion, nor do they trust God to do his own work! So they do God's work.

Thus, we have doctors shot, clinics burned, political lies told, honest people harassed, religious lies told, prohibitions enacted, social lies told on minorities, boycotts of business, crusades against political and religious figures, ethnic cleansing, wars of conquest and more lies told. These granite minds tell us they are God's people, his front line troops. They tell us they have the truth and we should believe the same myths they do. We are told we should act like they do.

I am sorry granite minds. I am not that evil. I am not that religious. I have moral standards which keep me from harming my neighbor just because he is different from me. I have morals which keep me from believing that any God could be as cruel, base and juvenile as the granite minds insists he is. I have morals which keep me from telling lies to others and insisting that the lies are the truth. If there is a god, I know he must be JUST. And a just God could not cast a person into torment for all eternity simply because he could not believe the unbelievable, the immoral and the impossible.

No Just or Good God ever thirsted for sheep's blood, man's blood, nor did he thirst for the blood of his own kin. That is BARBARIC! That is simply UNBELIEVABLE!

According to the believers, God whips up rain at man's request. He removes mountains, throws lightening bolts, breathes hurricanes into destructive existence, stomps earthquakes into being, guides tornados along their destructive paths, and he moves comets, asteroids and stars around. Many other unbelievable and immoral actions are attributed to God by believers who claim God dabbles into the daily affairs of men and nations.

Of course, according to the believers, God does this to impress and punish non believers. He is so bent on attracting the attention of non believers, he is willing to destroy the just together with the unjust, the good with the bad. He does this in order to punish the non believers for their sin of Honest Doubt and Logical Thinking. Some say he sent the earthquake to San Francisco because of some immorality of a few citizens in that place. And he plans to do the same to Orlando, Florida. You remember they let some gay people have a parade. The snow white granite minds informed us of this terrible, terrible sin. They then instructed God to get on with the destruction. Didn't you notice the fires and hurricanes last year. God was punishing the whole state of Florida to get back at Orlando for letting gays march for about an hour.

The whole concept of a God making and running the universe boils down to this question. Is the universe religious? Is it a toy of the Almighty? Does the universe run at the whim and arbitration of a maker God? Can mere man tell God what to do about the Iraqis or the Irish? Does this Maker God send the winning numbers when we pray? Does the Almighty run the chores and errands of the granite minds? No! Certainly not!

The universe is natural and runs by the inherent laws of matter, energy and nature.

Yes it does!

There is no creator god and there is no maker god!

**Copied from www.jovialatheist.com and the work is NOT mine!

This is as close to actual "proof" that you can get, it's a logical deduction. Does it seem illogical to anyone? Or more importantly, did anyone believe in God for some reason and after reading this is having second thoughts? Anyone? Now this post isn't to start a flame war with believers, just some really logical explanation for lack of God's existance. You're welcome to refute this if you can.. but not by screaming something absurd... take out a statement and then refute it one piece at a time!

wow, once again people try to apply logic and reason to that which is far beyond the scope of their feeble minds to even attempt to credit themselves with pulling off. once you get into the realms of the infinite and fatherless, things get a little out of our league, so to speak. as a note, im just saying i dont buy any of this bull#, but also i cant say i honestly truthfully believe in a god either. im not a gnostic, im a-confused.

Who is asking you to BUY anything? Nothing is for sale. Tell me what parts don't make sense to you, logically. This is just a deduction because someone had a brain, this is all common sense, isn't it? What part of this do you "not buy". If you don't buy ANY of it, gimme one example from this and tell me what makes you think it's so unreasonable.

Btw human mind isn't feeble.. it is in fact limitless. It is a FEEBLE mind that believes in God, and this man shows you exactly why. A feeble mind creates an illusory creature and then states "well you're all only human, you can't logically deduce GOD! No way!". But you created him using YOUR feeble mind did you not?

[Edited on 1-1-2004 by lilblam]

This is basically assuming that God is bound to the laws of science and physics etc...which I'm sure he is not if he exists. There is much about this universe that we cannot and never will understand, there are many things we believe to be correct now that we will later find out to be incorrect.

lilblam:
"It is a FEEBLE mind that believes in God..."

No disrespect, but I would URGE serious caution in commenting or asserting that 'it' takes a "feeble mind" to believe in God..........
Likewise could be said for those who do not believe in God, could it not?

Are you seeking to entertain this thread and topic with well constructed thoughts and opinions or are you just seeking to give a stance and argue anything said to the contrary?
In such, I would respectfully mention that if one used the ATS 'search' function and typed in God, one would find an ample abundance of threads and topics on this or of this very nature.
Beliefs are such, that we can all freely believe what we do or will without merit of being labeled "feeble minded"....



regards
seekerof

[Edited on 1-1-2004 by Seekerof]

But is God bound to logic? This doesn't necessarily bind him to our known science, I don't think.. could be wrong. This binds him to laws of logic. Or does logic break down at some point? And why would it? If logic breaks down then ANY argument will ALWAYS be false because you can just scream "yes in your dumb, logical world you're right, but not in God's world - all illogical! "

See what I mean? So far God is no different from Santa... except that nobody prays to Santa. (Right? lol)
God is only an idea... an idea of an all-powerful being. But then, why should there be an all-powerful being anyway? Who'd create him? The stuff I posted above deals with these questions.

Oh... doesn't belief in ANYTHING automatically label you "feeble minded"? Belief is lack of knowledge... if you KNEW something you don't have to believe it anymore. You know how old you are, you don't BELIEVE it. So by believing something you automatically reject ANY knowledge of it, or else you wouldn't require belief. So therefore, only a feeble mind would replace "blank spots" that it just simply has no knowledge for with "belief" which is pure fantasy and idealistic "hope" which isn't based in reality AT ALL. This isn't to bash anyone, that's just what belief IS!

[Edited on 1-1-2004 by lilblam]

THINK OR BELIEVE


So, what is a Jovial Atheist? He is a person like you who wishes the very best for all of mankind and for himself. The Jovial Atheist wishes no one had to go to bed hungry, or be sick without the attention of a capable, informed medical service. He would like to see all men and women learn to use their minds to help the world rid itself from the evils which come to us from the dark and empty space of ignorance. The Jovial Atheist wishes all mankind would (or could) use their minds to separate fact from fiction, truth from tall tales and reality from the ridiculous.

Ignorance is not just something you have NOT learned. Often ignorance is something you have spent many hours, days, weeks, months and years learning. Ignorance is often something you have spent many hundreds and even thousands of dollars learning. There are even Doctor degrees (PhD.s) issued for years of learning how to be ignorant. What am I talking about? Ignorance is the ability to discard the KNOWN and PROVEN facts of life and science in order to study, learn and perpetuate the untrue, the unknown and the unbelievable. Now that IS ignorance! This type of ignorance is the REJECTION of proven facts and truth. Ignorance is believing the unbelievable. Ignorance is allowing superstition to guide our lives and goals.

The mind (intelligence) is the most marvelous development in the universe. The mind exceeds in value the stars from which comes the material of which mankind and his mind is made. An infant is born with a deep and curious quest to learn everything. What? Why? How? When? The infant mind is a sponge to absorb knowledge. It is a most powerful indexer of knowledge and the eyes of the infant sees everything as new. The infant mind is a most precious addition to the truth seeking of mankind.

Then something happens! That infant mind, which knows nothing about falsehood, about lies and about man's insanity, is told falsehoods by those in whom the infant has trust. Knowing nothing about lies, the infant accepts the falsehood as being true. From that moment on, the infant is at a loss to separate fact from fiction. He is told about Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, the Boogy Bear and so on. That infant mind is bombarded by religious tales, and prayer, and false hopes and false superiority. And these things become as real to the infant mind as is the car he is driven around in by mama and dad.

That questing infant mind is now bombarded by facts AND fictions. The infant has no way to separate the two. The adults, in whom the infant puts his trust, fail to equip the infant mind with the greatest aid needed to separate fact from fiction. The adults have failed to tell the infant questing mind that some things he is told are true, and some things are untrue. They have failed to tell the infant mind that he must honestly doubt the claims and statements made by anyone until he has studied the proposition and found them to be true or false. They have failed to equip the infant mind with the greatest aid available in determining the TRUTH. That is, the adults have failed to teach the infant mind about Honest Doubt, Research and Honest Clear Thinking in order to evaluate all claims or statements.

They have failed to instruct the infant mind to ALWAYS examine BOTH sides of any claim or statement. They failed to teach the infant mind the value of asking, "WHY?"

In sixty or less years that same questing infant mind has become hard as granite and as impervious to facts, logic and new useful knowledge as is a piece of steel. In other words, that questing infant mind has been nailed shut and crippled and in some it is destroyed. It is now capable of doing only routine work. It is no longer capable of honest, questing thought. It is no longer capable of honestly evaluating a statement or claim and determining the truth of the matter. It is no longer capable of seeing the NEW in everything. It is no longer capable of examining both sides of any political, religious or economic issue or matter.

Instead of adding to his knowledge, that granite mind now seeks to build barriers to protect the BELIEFS (ignorance) which he has substituted for knowledge and truth. In place of a wise and open mind, that granite mind now filters all incoming information through the BELIEF FILTER - FIRST. No matter how true that new information and knowledge is, and no matter how well proven that knowledge is, the granite mind rejects it because it does not conform to the beliefs which he now accepts as true. Belief (ignorance) now becomes the yard stick and barrier which binds the mind.

Belief destroys the ability to recognize facts, TO SEPARATE FACT FROM FICTION and worst of all, steals the happiness and joy which comes with a questing mind.

You are most likely somewhere between the infant questing mind and the granite mind of those who have all the answers even though they do not have a single clue to all of the questions. The Jovial Atheist is about to tell you a secret. This is a secret which will free you from the rock hard mind set which keeps you from being happy, productive, destroys personal relationships, causes war and terror of all kinds and most of all, keeps you from knowing the truth around you. This is the secret which will open your eyes to the fact, there is still more to learn about yourself and about the world. The use of this secret is also called a SIN by those whose granite minds do not wish to be disturbed, nor do they wish others in their circle of influence to be disturbed or challenged with new or contradictory facts, truths and knowledge.

This secret is the fact that knowledge and truth is determined by learning to HONESTLY DOUBT the statements and claim made daily to you. Honest Doubt is the ONLY protection which nature has given us to protect us from falsehoods, frauds and felons. Honest Doubt protects us from politicians, publishers, prophets, priests and preachers. If you wish to reclaim your infant questing mind then learn to honestly doubt what others tell you.

HONEST DOUBT IS THE BEGINNING OF WISDOM.

I AM ASKING YOU TO DOUBT EVERYTHING WHICH I SAY OR WRITE!

Now, when you honestly doubt, you must also check and see if what you are told is the real truth - or not. I would never ask you to believe me. You only believe something when you do not have the facts to prove the matter. If you have the facts to prove the matter, you can NOT believe. WHY? You can not believe because you now KNOW the truth about the subject. So, falsehood trys to give you a false alternative to knowing the facts about a matter.

Falsehood says, "Since I can not prove my claims and statements to you, and since I do not have any real facts to present to you, you must therefore, NOT DOUBT. I can not prove to you that I am right and that I am telling you the truth, so you must now BELIEVE that I am telling you the truth ." This appeal to Belief is usually followed by the threat of some dire and terrible punishment such as, "Or you will go to HELL". This hatred and FEAR of thinking HONESTLY is the intellectual property and ONLY defense of all religiously oriented minds.

The falsehood has told its followers that to think, to honestly question the claims and stories made by them, and to search for the truth of any religious or political matter, is to SIN. To examine BOTH sides of a matter, is to commit a religious SIN.

Think about that!

Do you not know that to honestly doubt wild and baseless claims is the beginning process of thinking? The first step in problem solving and finding the truth of a matter, is to honestly doubt the claims and statements. That clears the air so a person becomes FREE to evaluate and honestly think about the matter. So the falsehood tells you to NOT DOUBT and it tells you to OBEY! People do not even realize that falsehood has told the lie so many times, the lie soon becomes a cultural totem and is accepted as truth. On the other hand, to honestly doubt some wild, unbelievable claim is to sin. I have a question.

COULD AN HONEST, JUST GOD ASK US TO STOP THINKING
AND START BELIEVING?

I do not think so! Notice, I said an HONEST, JUST GOD.

**Copied from www.jovialatheist.com and is NOT my work! But this is perfect for use to explain things so I don't have to write them myself!

It is impossible to PROVE that God does or does not exist...and our scientific knowledge, laws, rules, and so on are "correct" to our knowledge, but who's to say we won't discover exceptions to these rules in the future? What we all "know" is built on theories and ideas from people in the past, which were built on other's ideas...but there are still an infinite number of possibilities for new things that we can not hope to understand yet.

Originally posted by lilblam
But is God bound to logic?

No, by definition She is not. That's ranting philosophy major 101... "But if God's so powerful, can She make a rock so big She can't lift it?"

I promise to read your argument, but it's not a night for homework assignments.

Just keep in mind, if your premise is:

Assuming God is bound by logic, then...

Then that has nothing to do with a belief system definitionally outside the realm of human knowledge.

God is neither logical or illogical. Rules only apply to us.

[But for the record I don't ascribe to a God either.]

I think it all comes down to a personal decision...

Do you want to believe in science as "truth" or do you want to believe in your religion as "truth"?

Both are unexplainable and illogical in certain ways.

Huh?
Lilblam.......
You remind me of someone who used to argue the very same way you are now.......

Lets test your theory, shall we?

* Do you believe or know that you are going to wake tomorrow morning?

* Do you believe or know that you are going to be around next week or next month or next year?

* Do you believe or know for a fact that 'a' God or 'supreme entity' does not exist? Do you have concrete empirical proof of this other than "I know, therefore I am...."?

* Do you believe or know that you will have a job tomorrow?

The list can go on, but lets see how these unfold.....



regards
seekerof

But where does anything you just said place God? Yes you're right we have much to learn and much of what we know or think we know can one day be proven false. But where the HELL did the idea of God come from? It's not one of our "knowledge" ideas... it's just a fairy tale to fantasize about and pray to for well-being. Is it POSSIBLE that God exists AT ALL? If it is, I'm sure that all our "specific knowledge" and understanding of God is all bullsh1t since we're so infant in our knowledge of the universe. Why would so many people claim they know what God is or wants or says or does or ANYTHING. God maybe EVERYTHING that exists, the idea that he is separate is purely human. We can't fathom him being one with us, and not at all separate. This isn't easy to imagine anyway. Then where is he exactly we ask. Well why does he have to BE anywhere or anything? Why do we even need to think up a God and then worship him? Why not LOOK for one and see if we find something resembling a God, why all the jumping to conclusions before we know ANYTHING about this universe? Especially something that's supposed to be greater than everything else, God. We know NOTHING yet we know SO MUCH about God which is greater than everything? Wow what a weird paradox some humans create.

Edit: this is in reply to Shoktek.

[Edited on 1-1-2004 by lilblam]

Originally posted by Seekerof
Huh?
Lilblam.......
You remind me of someone who used to argue the very same way you are now.......

Lets test your theory, shall we?

* Do you believe or know that you are going to wake tomorrow morning?

ME: Neither! I don't know for "sure" because of the randomness and spontenuity of life, and that I cannot account for ALL variables and possibilities. However, based on previous observation, there is probably a better chance that I WILL wake up. I don't have to believe that I will wake up, but I don't know it either. So I just say I have no clue, but I sure hope so!

* Do you believe or know that you are going to be around next week or next month or next year?

ME: I don't believe I will, nor do I know it. Anything can happen that I wasn't aware of previously, so I won't even speculate. Especially with this terrorist stuff. Again, I don't know. And no one knows either. Anyone can die at any time - most people don't know when they'll die until they die. You may foolishly believe you'll be alive tomorrow or 5 minutes from now, but does that mean you won't die? You don't believe it, your best chance is to hope! Belief is to pretend to know!

* Do you believe or know for a fact that 'a' God or 'supreme entity' does not exist? Do you have concrete empirical proof of this other than "I know, therefore I am...."?

ME: I don't BELIEVE he exists nor do I believe otherwise. Based on logical deduction of what it would MEAN for him to exist (as described in my first 3 posts on this thread) I give his existance a very low chance. REALLY low. Does that guarantee that he doesn't exist? Does 1+1 guarantee it'll always be 2? Well if 1+1 ALWAYS is 2, then yes what this man says in my posts above demonstrate that God is nonexistant.

* Do you believe or know that you will have a job tomorrow?

ME: I don't know.. I may be fired from my current job at any time. I can also be spontaneously offered work at any time and I may accept it if I so choose. At ANY TIME! I don't BELIEVE I will have a job tomorrow, that would be dumb of me. I hope, because it is to my benefit. But NEVER believe, because that would be pretend to know and assume to be true, without actual knowledge at all.

The list can go on, but lets see how these unfold.....



regards
seekerof

[Edited on 1-1-2004 by lilblam]

[Edited on 1-1-2004 by lilblam]

[Edited on 1-1-2004 by lilblam]

I was merely trying to show you how you can't "prove" that God does not exist, as you stated in your original topic. This is because we will never know he doesn't exist, as we will never know many things possible in our universe. I can't try to prove to you that God does exist. This is where "faith" and "belief" comes in. If God is a superior being (which is what most people believe), then is it not logical to believe that he simply cannot be explained by rules or laws created by us? I am not trying to prove to you that God exists, only that he might exist, and that you cannot prove otherwise.

I have fully read and understood your posts: lilblam. Now, onto my arguement.

You see, your arguement is all physical laws and explanations. God is NOT physical, his son, Jesus Christ, BECAME physical, and there IS PHYSICAL EVIDENCE of a man named Jesus Christ existing. God is a spiritual thing, not a him/her. God is addressed as a him for the sake of confusion. Now, your arguement is credible, with physical laws and theories disproving God - only one problem. God is not physical, again. God is infinite. God has always been, and always will be. This is not something ANY human can clearly comprehend. Yes, you can say infinity is never ending, but that is not the meaning for God. God has always been and always will be, he is the ultimate creator. Humans cannot comprehend this because humans have beginnings and ends, we ARE NOT infinite, and God is. This is what makes him more powerful than us. Another thing - you say that "not even NOT seeing God after death will convince you" Well..uh..buddy..have you died and not seen him? No. That is what I thought. Until you die and come back to life, do not be making this assumption. You ASSUME that you will not see a God, you do not KNOW. Put that back from where you got it! That ends that arguement.

If none of this convinces you, here is a tough one. You cannot disprove or prove this statement. The statement of FAITH. God requires faith. A blind leap of faith is what God is. You must believe, in order to understand. I read your arguement, now read mine. Stop trying to disprove God with physical evidence, because it cannot be done. In order for you to disprove him, here is what you need to do.

Step 1: DIE
Step 2: See if there is a heaven and hell
Step 3: If there is a heaven and hell, see God.
Step 4: If there is no heaven and hell, go to step 5
Step 5. COME BACK ALIVE, and prove to us that there is no God.

But, wait! If there is no heaven and hell, and no afterlife, then you will not be seeing anything, will you? A lot of it requires some faith...it seems that you don't have this. . .


"we find God was NOT satisfied. He was not self sufficient, nor happy. God was lonesome, so he made at least a son and a ghost to keep him company."

OK, now one thing. WHERE in the Bible does it say that God was LONELY!! That is a ignorant statement. No where does it say that God was lonely. This is your interpretation. You find me the scripture, passage, chapter, etc, and I'll look it up. Come on, PROVE it to me


EDIT: Sapphire: I agree, humans feel something deep inside, indeed, I do myself. For those who don't, I pity their souls

-wD

[Edited on 1-1-2004 by WeBDeviL]

There is an afterlife, which is why human beings are so consumed by it. God does exist which is also why human beings are so consumed by a higher entity. Our Spirits feel something deep inside. And those who feel nothing, who knows. Maybe they're the Aliens amongst us

I can't believe that everything just came together flawlessly the way it did, simply because of science. And science can't explain human emotions, feelings, relationships, or personalities. (At least not to my satisfaction.) I don't know which is more believable, thinking that everything we see each day came from a "big bang", or that there is a spiritual consciousness that we can't explain but know that something does exist simply because we know.