Britain Mulls Tagging Wandering Elderly

Britain Mulls Tagging Wandering Elderly

www.guardian.co.uk

The science minister, Malcolm Wicks, today defended his suggestion to track elderly people with satellite-monitored tags, but said the government has no concrete plans to pursue the idea.

His comments attracted criticism from civil liberties groups, but charities including Help the Aged and the Alzheimer's Society have cautiously welcomed the idea.

(visit the link for the full news article)

Is this a stepping stone for future tagging of even more segments of the population? I believe hospital patients have already been proposed, also the homeless, released prisoners, parolees, children, pets and now the elderly.

Will the citizens of UK do anything about this? Will we (usa)?

www.guardian.co.uk
(visit the link for the full news article)

Heres some tracking of your vehicles wherever you drive:

news.zdnet.com...

I've been driving for much of the day and this issue has been discussed at some length on the radio. What has been a little depressing has been the absolute determination of some people to misinterpret what has been suggested.

To call it a proposal would be a big overstatement at this time, it appears to be little more than a member of the Government floating some ideas for possible uses of technology in the future. One of these was the, (entirely voluntary), potential to tag sufferers from forms of dementia to allow their carers and relatives to be able to trace them in an emergency.

What was particularly telling was that the most powerful voices in favour of the idea were from those who actually do have to care for such sufferers and, in one case, from a woman suffering from dementia herself (who appeared pretty rational on the radio at the time), whilst the most strident detractors gave no indication of having any idea of what difficulties this involves.

Originally posted by timeless test
To call it a proposal would be a big overstatement at this time, it appears to be little more than a member of the Government floating some ideas for possible uses of technology in the future. One of these was the, (entirely voluntary), potential to tag sufferers from forms of dementia to allow their carers and relatives to be able to trace them in an emergency.

proposal
One entry found for proposal.
Main Entry: pro·pos·al
Pronunciation: pr&-'pO-z&l
Function: noun
1 : an act of putting forward or stating something for consideration

Floating some ideas, sounds like a proposal to me. Besides the fact I have no idea where you got the word "proposal" from in the 1st place...??? Is the word proposal somewhere in the article? Is it in my headline?

Is this possibly testing the waters to test for public reaction? If the reaction if negative, just say we werent really pursuing this, just thinking about it...what trash.

If you believe that: "it appears to be little more than a member of the Government floating some ideas for possible uses of technology in the future", then congratulations the media spin has worked on some people! Success...

Voluntary or not, these seemingly beneficial uses of tracking people only serves to soften the perceptions of such devices.

[edit on 19-4-2007 by greatlakes]

[edit on 19-4-2007 by greatlakes]

Originally posted by greatlakes
Main Entry: pro·pos·al
Pronunciation: pr&-'pO-z&l
Function: noun
1 : an act of putting forward or stating something for consideration

Thanks so much for your thoughtful response. When I want patronising I'll be sure to call you first.

Is this possibly testing the waters to test for public reaction?

Yes, of course it is but in this context with reference to UK Government the word "proposal" would normally mean something far more concrete. Yes it's semantics but it's just the way it's done.

Voluntary or not, these seemingly beneficial uses of tracking people only serves to soften the perceptions of such devices.

Or maybe such applications of technology can actually bring serious benefits to some sections of society which badly need it, but let's not worry about that if it is in danger of offending your libertarian sensibilities.

Tell me, have you ever been responsible for the life of a deeply loved relative who suffers from dementia? Go on, surprise me...

Originally posted by timeless test
Or maybe such applications of technology can actually bring serious benefits to some sections of society which badly need it, but let's not worry about that if it is in danger of offending your libertarian sensibilities.

Tell me, have you ever been responsible for the life of a deeply loved relative who suffers from dementia? Go on, surprise me...

If I'm a caregiver I certainly don't need the government to step in and lend me a helping hand. There are numerous low cost gps tracking devices that are on the market that enable tracking real-time.

Besides if you're a caregiver you must not be a very good one if you let your poor patient suffering from dementia to go out wandering the city now are you?

Originally posted by timeless test
Yes, of course it is but in this context with reference to UK Government the word "proposal" would normally mean something far more concrete. Yes it's semantics but it's just the way it's done.

I still don't know where you got the word "proposal" from again. You keep using proposal as if the article states this somewhere, or as if I state this somewhere, can you please show me where this word appears in either source?

Originally posted by greatlakes
I certainly don't need the government to step in and lend me a helping hand.

Well good for you. Not everyone who cares for their elderly and infirm relatives is a GPS geek. Perhaps we should just let them rot in their ignorance.

Besides if you're a caregiver you must not be a very good one if you let your poor patient suffering from dementia to go out wandering the city now are you?

Hmmmm, I didn't think you had any experience in caring for people in this position, thanks for confirming that.

I'm still awaiting the answer to the question, where did you see the word "PROPOSAL". You seem to be dodging this question with every post. Amazing.

Originally posted by greatlakes
I still don't know where you got the word "proposal" from

You are quite right, I was continuing a rant at someone on the radio this afternoon in error. Apologies.

Now... how long will you evade my question?

Just how much experience in caring for dementia suferers do you have that gives you the knowledge to criticise those that do?


[edit on 19-4-2007 by timeless test]

This is a thread about aspects of potential big brother agenda and how it is possibly being introduced to the population. This is not a thread about the best practices and prior experiences as a caregiver.

If you can operate a cellphone or use you car stereo on the way to your caregiving occupation, you can use a "CONSUMER" gps locating device. In fact drive over to any store, in the US wal-mart, and purchase one. I'm sure the instructions are written in the simplest of language for the majority of people to understand and comprehend. You don't have to be a GPS geek as you stated.

To answer your question, I am not now, nor was I ever a caregiver in any capacity and never stated that I was or eluded to the same. I don't know where you get your information from, maybe the same spot where you found the phantom word "proposal" from originally and then corrected yourself...

Before you start criticizing why don't you work out how much it costs for emergency services to be called out and search for a missing dementia patient.

How would you feel if at the same time as the local emergency services were out looking for this patient your house happened to catch fire, only problem is the local fire brigade is out looking for this patient, so your buring house has to wait an extra 5-10 minutes before the next station can get there?

Posts like this make this site look stupid. Can anyone say paranoid?

Insurance, that's why I have it. I also have the internet and a credit card and a nearby Wal-mart or Target, whatever floats your boat, to purchase some newfangled GPS tracking equipment, sans the government.

The same agendas try to regulate the internet as well, are you for that concept too? Because the internet is mighty dangerous, wild west ya know, needs regulation...

Originally posted by greatlakes
This is a thread about aspects of potential big brother agenda and how it is possibly being introduced to the population. This is not a thread about the best practices and prior experiences as a caregiver.

Agreed, but if we are to stand in the way of the introduction of technologies that will provide significant benefits to carers and sufferers alike because of unproven fears of a big brother state at the possible cost of peoples health and lives should we not consider both sides of the case rather than condemn those less fortunate than ourselves to misery?

If you can operate a cell phone or use you car stereo on the way to your caregiving occupation, you can use a "CONSUMER" gps locating device.

Indeed you can, and some already do so for this very purpose although their efficacy is limited for this task at present. What you forget is that in many cases the sufferers we are talking about cannot operate a cell phone because of their illness or certainly cannot be relied upon to do so.

I am not now, nor was I ever a caregiver in any capacity and never stated that I was or eluded to the same. I don't know where you get your information from

I didn't get it from anywhere or suggest that you did have any experience, quite the reverse, my point was, and remains, that you are unwise to criticise carers in these situations without having even the semblence of such experience.

I heard this on the radio and then later saw the newspaper headlines. As per usual the press have misinterpreted what was said. This is entirely in keeping with the way the press in the UK behaves today. It will twist (spin!) anything and everything to try and bring the government down by conning the public......and it's working.

It wasn't even a proposal!, the minister was simply stating that we have the technology that could help us to track people who get lost like the elderly. It was something we should look at and consider. This is an entirely reasonable approach. He has put the technology on the table for us to discuss. Unfortunately the press don't want to discuss they wan't to dictate to the public how to think becasue they know the public doesn't like to think it likes to be led with gritted teeth and anger. GRRRR f.... government, telling us what to do, big brother, I hate Blair, Bast...d, grrr, they're not going track me, where's my gun, Basta..ds, gran's got my gun, where is she?, f...cking government should help me with gran......

Originally posted by timeless test
What you forget is that in many cases the sufferers we are talking about cannot operate a cell phone because of their illness or certainly cannot be relied upon to do so.

NO NO NO, the user setting up the device needs to be able to read the directions and SET IT UP, after that, just plant the tracker on whomever you want. It will track the person, car dog, plane train or w/e for you 24/7. Get it?

This isn't rocket science, cmon see here: childlocator.com...
Just ONE example out of hundreds of pricing, options etc etc. Welcome to world of GPS tracking without government sponsorship.

No1 is criticizing your caregiver occupation, just a caregiver that loses his or her patient.

So understand, all for using a CONSUMER GPS TRACKING DEVICE, not for government sponsored gps tracker agendas. See the distinction?

Yes, I do get it. However what happens when the trackee decides to leave the device at home, or loses it, or the battery runs down or anyone of a million things happens to it, how is that situation managed? You have to remember that almost by definition some of the kinds of people that may benefit from this may frequently behave irrationally. That's why the comparison to prisoner tagging was made, because those devices are, supposedly, hard to remove.

Once you have addressed those questions you have to think about other things like:

How are the devices tracked, centrally or by individual carers?

Who would manage a central system, emergency services, social services or a private company?

Who supplies the devices, should they be available through the National Health Service or are they to restricted to those who can afford them?

What happens to people who don't have local family carers nearby and rely on social services to look out for them?

What about residents of local authority care homes, who pays for and monitors their trackers?

All of these questions need to be considered and all fall to a greater or lesser extent within the orbit of local or national government or government agencies such as the police, NHS and social services. Which is why it was entirely right and proper that a Government minister should float the idea to spark some debate and response.

And, whilst I'm thinking about it, why is the Minister being criticised for the idea in the first place.

What a damned poor world we live in when someone raises an issue to try to see if a Government can promote an idea to try to help protect some of its most vulnerable citizens and he get lambasted for doing so just in case he's some 8th dan nutter from the NWO who wants to keep tabs on everyone over 80 who's gone a bit bananas.

edit to add: great lakes, I'm at risk of being back my radio rant again and the above may or may not be applicable to you. Please don't take it personally. I'll go and take some more pills and I'll feel better later.



[edit on 20-4-2007 by timeless test]