EU aims to criminalise Holocaust denial

Originally posted by Jakko

a. why not allow experts to examine the site?

Why didn't they allow terrorists to examine the 11/9 site?

That's not a very good comparison imo, WW2 has ended and there are historians that would like to find the truth, so I don't think they should be barred from examining Auschwitz. 9/11 was recent and people are still picking up the pieces from it, and terrorists are still present and as far as I know they aren't denying it or how many people died there.

A better way to put it would be "why don't they allow neutral experts to examine the 9/11 site", not terrorists. But still, no one questions whether 9/11 happened and the amount of dead so it's not really the same.

Originally posted by Jakko

Originally posted by malganis
So what are they going to ban next? 9/11 truth seekers? Historians that write essays that are just a little bit too researched? Free speech and opinions? Questions?

Again now, these neo nazi's are not questioning anything. They do not want to find out how or why things happened.
They do not want to have a discussion about whether or not the holocaust happened, neither do they want to bring valid points to the table.

They just want to publicly yell that it didn't happen, without any further reasonable support or proof.

I've never heard of anyone publicly yelling that it didn't happen without discussing it or bringing any points up. Anyone who does do that is probably just some stupid phased kid who isn't worth listening to anyway.

By "questioning it" I mainly had in mind the discussion conference that Tehran set up a while back which wasn't yelling that it didn't happen, it was basically trying to find out if the numbers were as accurate as published. They had to hold it in Tehran because European countries wouldn't allow it, though experts from around the world attended, and it was still branded holocaust denial.

Now you can say that Tehran only held it because they don't like Jews or whatever, but that's not the point. It's their right to hold a discussion about it if they want to.

Originally posted by malganis

A better way to put it would be "why don't they allow neutral experts to examine the 9/11 site", not terrorists. But still, no one questions whether 9/11 happened and the amount of dead so it's not really the same.

...

Now you can say that Tehran only held it because they don't like Jews or whatever, but that's not the point. It's their right to hold a discussion about it if they want to.

The problem is not neutral (as in neutral) experts (as in expert) being denied to investigate the holocaust, because the nazi fanboys we are talking about here, are neither neutral not expert.

Tehrans hostile attitude towards Israel, makes it impossible for other countries to have a serious discussion with Tehran about whether or not the holocaust really happened.


What I find most stunning about all of this, is that even though we have the videotapes, even though we have millions of witnesses (both victims of camps, the surviving family, and those that set the victims free), we have the mass-graves and the numerous written reports of what happened, some still feel the need to want to investigate whether a part of it has been made up. Whether they can find vague reasons to believe maybe a few million less people died.

Not only do these individuals question the immense suffering that jewish people, gay people and gipsies went through, but they question it, based on the rambling of loonatics from the Hitler-fanclub themselves.

I really do not get it.

[edit on 20-4-2007 by Jakko]

Jakko, you can continue to paint all those accused of Holocaust denial as belonging to the "hitler fanclub" all you like but it doesn't make it true.

A Jewish Israeli historian, Yehuda Bauer, was the lead researcher who got the Polish government to revise the Auschwitz death toll from 4 million dead, to 1 million dead. That one revision halved the amount claimed killed in the entire Jewish Holocaust.

To me that alone lays the ground work for a serious look into the entire Holocaust story. When coupled with the financial and political benefits eked out of the Holocaust by Zionists, there lies the basis for probable cause to accuse Zionists of purposely deceiving the World to further their goals.

You seem to believe that a scholar would not run foul of Holocaust denial laws if they were a) a scholar, b) not a Nazi sympathizer and c) not "yelling" about it.

Holocaust denial is:

Holocaust Denial
Holocaust denial (commonly called Holocaust revisionism by its supporters[1]) is the belief that the genocide of Jews and other minority groups during World War II — the Holocaust — either did not occur, or did not occur to the extent described by current scholarship.

Therefore if any one does not concur with the current orthodoxy of believing 6 million Jews were murdered you are a holocaust denier. Which of course is preposterous given that 3 million was officially wiped off the death toll in the early 1990's by an Israeli team of researchers and acknowledged by Poland's government.

So if anything, a maximum of 3 million people died

So I say lets make it easier to control human thoughts and ideas and the rights to make your own decisions. . .

Lets brainwash the entire humanity to made them think and act the way the powers of the world wants.

I think is my good darn right to think whatever I want and say so without some ideology pusher telling me what is right or not for me to believe.

The next thing is to forbid talking about Hitler and the denial of Jesus.

Down with mental control.

Originally posted by subz
Jakko, you can continue to paint all those accused of Holocaust denial as belonging to the "hitler fanclub" all you like but it doesn't make it true.

Either that, or agreeing with the Hitler Fanclub folks yes.

A Jewish Israeli historian, Yehuda Bauer, was the lead researcher who got the Polish government to revise the Auschwitz death toll from 4 million dead, to 1 million dead. That one revision halved the amount claimed killed in the entire Jewish Holocaust.

The number got revised to 1.6, not to 1 million.
This means that instead of (6 + (4 - 1.6)) = 8.4 million people, 6 people died, a 2.4 million difference.

I fail to see how 2.4 million is 50% of 8 million.

(www.fpp.co.uk...)

Yehuda Bauer was able to question the numbers, and revise it to the right amount without being jailed for it.

And this is because he was neutral and an expert in his field. His motives were about getting it right.

I really do not understand how you got to the 3 million number, the whole reason why the initial estimate of deaths in Auschwitz was appearing wrong, was because they were quite sure that in total 6 million people died, and the 4 million at Auschwitz did not make sense in that light.

The four million figure, combined with the known deaths elsewhere, would result in a total number of Holocaust victims well above the approximate figure of six million that has long been established by different methods, including a comparison of European Jewish population statistics before and after the war, he said.

So there ya go.
And yes, claiming only 3 million died would go against so many assumed valid researches that one would have to wonder what the motive is for making such silly statements...

In general people should be allowed to make silly statements of course, but when silly statements start to be discrimination and antisemitism in disguise, the law can and should be used to do something.

So people like Yehuda Bauer can STILL research and bring new views regarding this subject, because the law does not target that kind of "questioning".

Again, why don't you read the proposed law again, and think about who that law can be applied to...

[edit on 20-4-2007 by Jakko]

as an aside, yet still on point with the brain police motif, why is the public(or, 'terrorists', as you seem to suggest) not allowed to view 911 evidence?
it's the same story, with new actors. the truth is non-partisan.

Glad I'm not in the EU. If I decided to deny the Holocaust here, they couldn't do a damn thing to me. Nya na na na na!

Originally posted by truthseeka
Glad I'm not in the EU. If I decided to deny the Holocaust here, they couldn't do a damn thing to me. Nya na na na na!

Haha yeah you wait a few years and you'll have 9/11 denial laws, so none of us will be better off!