Originally posted by grover
Guns have only one purpose and that is to kill and hand guns have an even more limited purpose and that is to kill people. No amount of rhetoric is going to change those basic facts.

I've just come from lunch. Part of my lunch was killed using a handgun. No rhetoric. No lies. I used that pistol to kill that food so that it could go in to my freezer to feed my family.

Blitz,

I have been shooting pretty much my whole life, So I know where your coming from. Im sure you have been deer hunting before, Its similar to that even though you know how to shoot and hold the rifle steady. It is so much harder to hold the weapon steady when aiming at the deer.

Sorry it took me so long to respond. Sleep and work, etc.

I understand your point, but the problem is that these people are so desensitized to the real world and out of touch with reality, that they really don't seem to feel anything anymore. The people that do this stuff have less feeling for the human lives that they take than a hunter does for the deer. A hunter ususally has a certain respect for his prey and intends to make use of his kill. These people are just killing for a thrill. I really think it has a lot to do with what we seem to call tolerence today. We let people with real mental problems just say and do what they want so that we can be 'tolerant' and 'undersantding' of their feelings. Someone that mutilates their body with holes, constatnly wears black and writes poems and songs about death and killing doesn't need to be ignored and left alone, they're screaming out for attention and help. They really want someone to ask them 'What the heck is wrong with you?' becasue they've spent their whole lives holding it in. It really does stem from a lack of parenting for our children. Entire lives lived totally alone in a house full of people!

[edit on 17-4-2007 by lonewolf37]

Originally posted by grover
The guns don't kill people, people kill people is one of the lamest arguments I have ever heard and is only true in the simplest of levels. Guns have only one purpose and that is to kill and hand guns have an even more limited purpose and that is to kill people. No amount of rhetoric is going to change those basic facts.

Not strictly true.

Take for example if you were assaulted, by someone with a knife and you had a gun. The ability to pull the gun would (in many cases) be enough to stop the person from attacking you. Thus you would in fact (by default) save a life thanks to a gun.

Of course one of the functions of guns is to kill, no doubt it is the primary function. But what is the primary function of a knife? To kill. A club? The fact is:
The knife can be used for food preperation, to help create clothing.
The club can be used in a sport such as baseball.

Just because somethings primary (initial) use was to kill, does not make it its only use. It is nieve to claim so and the arguement doesn't really hold water.

I know at UF the dorms are pretty safe, you need a slide car to get in the building and on your floor. But all colleges have open areas and classrooms. I dont think that there is a way to make them more safe without turning into a police state (frisking everyone, metal detectors everywhere, etc) Things happen and if the perps are determined they wil find a way.....but I think the colleges need to work out emergency plans so that the can take a more effecient and quicker plan of action than the police at VT did

---> I know hindsight is 20/20 but if VT ws able to shut down the school when that convict escaped they should have done that when they found the first 2 bodies instead of ASSUMING that the shooter left campus

Justin Oldman: If you killed your lunch with a handgun more power to you (I thought your personal info said that you were blind though) but you are the exception to the rule. be that as it may, guns have one purpose and that is to kill.

Checking I see that your personal info says that you are legally blind.

[edit on 17-4-2007 by grover]

Hey one question....How did Pres. Bush get to Blacksburg? AF1 is too large for KROA. Did he arrive via Marine 1? Grover you heard anything about this?


BTW Grover They just opened a new Irish pub off of Electric Rd & Colonial. U2U me if ya ever want to grab a pint!

Ismail AX was mentioned somewhere in here...i think it was a charater/or the name of an x-box game.

Yes, grover, I am legally blind. I just wanted to speak up because you were over-generalizing. Being poorly sighted does not excuse me from being a competent user of any tool I posess. Your hate for guns seems genuine, but you've got to learn how to see past that rage.

Violence can be committed with any tool. Some tools are more expedient than others. Becuae I don't see very well, I could be more vulnerable to other people who mean to do me harm...if...I am unware and less responsible.

What you should be demanding is that same degree of responsibility and accountability from other people. If it's expected of you, it should be expected from them. We don't need laws to make that happen. We've got social pressures and parents to teach who can do that much more effectively than any judge of a five year hitch in a prison.

Guns can do more than just get you some food. They can also save lives. Once upon a time, I was an apartment dweller. My wife and I got a visit from a burglar. His response to our presence was threat and agression. My wife is meek and I am fat and slow. Easy meat? No. Details aren't important, but I am not a widower today because I defended myself and all that was dear to me...with...a...gun.

That weapon gave me the leeway to let him run away. I'm aware of the laws in my State, and I acted with them in mind. I was responsible and accountable. Statistically, I will never face a choice like that again. The odds are such that just one out of every ten Americans have to live through something like that once in a hundred years. When we do, we are called on to act resposnibly and to be held accountable for our actions after the fact.

The power of "intent" is an awesome thing. An agry person can beat somebody to death with their bare hands if they really want to do it. If they really mean to do exactly that. It takes very little effort to remove a human eye with the normal cereal spoon. It takes almost no effort at all to give somebody the wrong pills. it takes no effort at all to give bad directions so that somebody will do the wrong thing. In all cases, the intent is the same and THAT is what we should be talking about.

Originally posted by Odium
Not strictly true.

Take for example if you were assaulted, by someone with a knife and you had a gun. The ability to pull the gun would (in many cases) be enough to stop the person from attacking you. Thus you would in fact (by default) save a life thanks to a gun.

Trust me, grover is one of those people that would rather see a child or someone in his family being raped, than having to use a gun to stop the rapist... Oh, he will try to give you excuses, that he doesn't need a gun, blah blah blah... but at the end, if it came to saving a child, or anyone in his family he wouldn't shoot the criminal for any reason.

Originally posted by ImpliedChaos
---> I know hindsight is 20/20 but if VT ws able to shut down the school when that convict escaped they should have done that when they found the first 2 bodies instead of ASSUMING that the shooter left campus

I fail to understand the "comparisons" to prior incidents of "seemingly" similar natures.

The escaped convict "scenario" was an Ongoing pursuit that just so happened to conclude on or around the grounds of the VTech campus, whereas this "situation" originated from within, and apparently it was dealt with and or handled according to that which they [the admin, etc.] had planned/exercised for.

All in all, regarding the school administration's handling of this tragedy, I feel they acted upon the contigencies which were currently in place for such an event ... yet, unfortunately, it unfolded to something far beyond Anyone's prior plans, considerations and or expectations.


... nothing short of horrific, unfathomable, and seemingly unavoidable ... in my opinion.

No matter how frustrating and or "we're helpless" that may be for some, it takes All kinds to keep this big rock spinnin' 'round. Sadly, we're tasked with the acceptance of the fact that there are minds capable of such.



 

Melbourne,

Guess the same would happen in the US if they outlawed firearms, you'd still get alot of people carrying them illegally but I bet your stabbing rates would also climb.

Sorry its been so long. I agree that if someone is set on murder, they will find a way. but I also agree that the vast majority of murders are not committed with legally acquired weapons. Again, had just one student, besides the murderer, had a gun, the numbers of dead would have probably been lower. Why do you think these cowards choose places like schools and shopping malls? They know they will have no resistance from their targets.

ImpliedChaos,

Ismail AX was mentioned somewhere in here...i think it was a charater/or the name of an x-box game.

If that's true, it does not surprise me? If we don't get our society under some sort of control (and I'm not talking about gov't control, I'm talking about moral control) we will continue to see more and more of this sort of thing. These murder movies and blood and gore video games are just training grounds and twisted ideas for these metally disturbed youths to get focused on. Once they have completely lost touch with reality, they have all the ammunition they need to cause horrible damage.

Honestly i dont think this has to do with video games..movies..etc. I know plenty of people who watch violent things who are not violent themselves (myself included) I think the problem is there are people who are already suseptible to commit violent acts (due to psych problems...bad parenting...etc) and after becoming entranced in a video game they might act violently toward people...where as 'normal metally healthy people wouldnt. so the problem isnt the games...music..or movies its with the person themselves and what they have been through and the lack of proper psychological care. IMO The teachers did the right thing and recommended this man for treatment There was nothing more from them to do. I know in Fl we have the 'baker act' which is if a patient seems dangerous to themselves/others they can be apprehended and madated to recieve treatment. Im not sure if this would have worked in this case b/c i dont know the circustances but thats just my 2cents