The Many Names for Groom Lake

Tim, if R-4608 is a typo, it's not my typo. That is the way it was labled on the Range Chart.

I know that the restricted areas have changed boundaries and designations many times. Maybe it changed from R-4608 to R-4808. Either that, or it was a typo in the Sandia report. I know that in more recent times, the Groom airspace was in R-4808N, and I think it became R-4808E, or something like that. It's hard to keep track.

The tower at Groom has had different call signs, too. At various times, it has responded to BUD, JUPITER, YULETIDE, DREAMLAND, and others. I knew one of the air traffic controllers who worked there.

Originally posted by Shadowhawk
Tim, if R-4608 is a typo, it's not my typo. That is the way it was labled on the Range Chart.

Ok! That's intresting as I have never seen a flight chart of Nevada with a restricted airspace designated R-46xx before. Now you have me wondering if there is something we've overlooked. Do you by a chance have a copy of that flight chart or a way to link to it?

I would really like to have a look for myself and see the date it was issued. You may have found something I missed!

Tim

[edit on 5/12/2007 by Ghost01]

Originally posted by johnlear
Originally posted by Ghost01
Now you're asking what 'guard' means? Is this a joke? I'll assume it isn't and you are just being your usual rude self.

I'm not sure what you mean by "guard"!

Guard can be used as a verb or a noun. Example of guard as a verb:

Dutch 50 please guard 123.45. This means Dutch 50 should switch Comm 2 to 123.45 and listen.

Example of guard used as a noun:

This is Cricket on guard with an air strike warning for all aircraft.

This means Cricket is transmitting on guard channel whatever guard happens to be for that area or for that day.

John, I'm aware of the different meanings for the word guard. Humor me, I know the difference between Nouns and Verbs!

]Originally posted by johnlear
Nellis Tower does not guard that frequency.

In the sentance above, what do you mean by guard?

A. Nellis doesn't use that frequency for communications at all.

OR

B. That isn't Nellis' guard frequency.

Homor me, and quit talking to me as if I am a little boy, I am an adult Mr. Lear! You grip about people being rude, and then have the Nerve to address me in such a disrespectful way! Time and again you turn to these snide, belittling tactics. Guess what John, I'm sick of it!

Tim

Originally posted by Ghost01

John, I'm aware of the different meanings for the word guard. Humor me, I know the difference between Nouns and Verbs!

]Originally posted by johnlear
Nellis Tower does not guard that frequency.

In the sentance above, what do you mean by guard?

A. Nellis doesn't use that frequency for communications at all.

OR

B. That isn't Nellis' guard frequency.

Homor me, and quit talking to me as if I am a little boy, I am an adult Mr. Lear! You grip about people being rude, and then have the Nerve to address me in such a disrespectful way! Time and again you turn to these snide, belittling tactics. Guess what John, I'm sick of it!

Tim,

Please accept my apologies for treating you as a little boy. Sometimes I just can't help it.

You made the statement that you thought I was calling Nellis. After 40 years of flying and 19,000 hours of flight time I probably know what frequency I am on. Groom Lake VHF in those days as 120.05. Thats what I transmitted on.

Then you come along and say I was probably talking to Nellis AFB.

Then I said Nellis doesn't guard that frequency meaning Nellis Tower doesn't monitor Groom Lake towers calls.

I was kind of making fun of you by showing how ridiculous it was for you to say that I was talking to Nellis. I was trying to point out the absurdity of you stating that my transmitting on Groom Lake tower frequency of 120.05 would be picked up by Nellis Tower. Groom Lake frequencies and radio traffic is a secret. Nellis doesn't have any need to know what is going on up there. They would not be guarding or monitoring or listening to Groom Lake Tower's frequency. Get it?

And again, Tim, please accept my apologies for treating you like a little boy. As I mentioned above, sometimes I just can't help myself.

Since this thread has been thouroughly hijacked anyway, I'll just run with it.

The Nellis range cahrt in the Sandia report apparently did contain a typographical error. It should have been R-4808 instead of R-4608.

There have been many changes to the airspace surrounding Groom lake since the base was first built.

In 1955, the airspace immediately above what eventually became Area 51 was added to the prohibited area (P-276) over the Nevada Test Site. At the time, the airspace over the Nellis Air Force range was P-271. When P-271 became R-4806, P-276 became P-275.

In 1961, P-275 became R-4808, while R-4806 was split into R-4806, R-4807 and R-4809 as described in my earlier post. R-4808 was eventually broken down further and the area over Area 51 and the eastern portion of the NTS became R-4808E. later still, it was changed to R-4808N. I believ it has changed again since then.

In 1961, a large section of airspace north and east of Area 51 was desifgnated the YULETIDE Special Opearations Area. In 1968, it was renamed DREAMLAND. When DREAMLAND became the designation of the 24-square-mile airspace block above and surrounding Groom Lake, the SOA was redesignated COYOTE.

Originally posted by Shadowhawk

Since this thread has been thouroughly hijacked anyway, I'll just run with In 1961, a large section of airspace north and east of Area 51 was desifgnated the YULETIDE Special Opearations Area. In 1968, it was renamed DREAMLAND. When DREAMLAND became the designation of the 24-square-mile airspace block above and surrounding Groom Lake, the SOA was redesignated COYOTE.

Nice work Shadowhawk. There was a VOR called Currant placed in that town about 75 nm north of Dreamland. It was specifically put there for the use of airplanes operating out of Groom. The Currant VOR was removed many years ago.

Today the northern boundary of the Nellis Range has the navigational protection of Wilson Creek VOR on the east and Tonopah VOR and Coaldale VOR on the west. I believe they did that so that there would be less straying into the test site from the north. In other words aircraft would be cleared "Direct to..." either of the VORS and ATC could be assured that there would be no chance of accidental straying to the south.

The southwestern border is protected by the Coaldale VOR and Beatty VOR and the eastern border the the Wilson Creek VOR and Las Vegas or Boulder VOR's.

When I use the word 'protection' I don't mean there is any way to keep someone from accidentally or intentionally straying into the range. What I mean is that straight line navigation from these facilities will prevent any intrusion.

Originally posted by johnlear
Today the northern boundary of the Nellis Range has the navigational protection of Wilson Creek VOR on the east and Tonopah VOR and Coaldale VOR on the west. I believe they did that so that there would be less straying into the test site from the north. In other words aircraft would be cleared "Direct to..." either of the VORS and ATC could be assured that there would be no chance of accidental straying to the south.

The southwestern border is protected by the Coaldale VOR and Beatty VOR and the eastern border the the Wilson Creek VOR and Las Vegas or Boulder VOR's.

Well said John!

You explaination here really gives thoes of us who aren't in Nevada, or aren't pilots a clear picture of how the boundries are set up. It also gives some insight into how air traffic control protects the airspace.

Tim

I checked a recent Nellis Range chart. The airspace block centered around Groom Lake is currently designated R-4808A.

Originally posted by Shadowhawk
The airspace block centered around Groom Lake is currently designated R-4808A.

Wow! How often does Area 51 change it's airspace? If I wouldn't know better, I'd think they wanted to see if they could get all the way through the alphabet. Let's see Groom Lake has been in:

R-4808 N
R- 4808 E

and now

R-4808 A

What makes this even stranger is the "A". I was under the belief that the letter on the end refered to a direction like N for North, or E for East. Seeing that there is no compass direction beginning with "A", what does that last letter stand for?

Any ideas Pete?

Tim

Airspace on the Nevada Test and Training Range (NTTR) has been changed many times over the years. The letter suffix at the end of a restricted airspace designation is simply for the convenience of labeling on the map. Sometimes, it breaks down by geographic location (N=North. S=South, etc.). Other times it just breaks into sections (A, B, C, etc.).

I don't know if this counts as a different name for Groom Lake but I think, I read, that the supposed base under area 51 is called "The Dark Side of the Moon".

4808a is in fact the range designator for the "box"

Originally posted by Shadowhawk
Airspace on the Nevada Test and Training Range (NTTR) has been changed many times over the years. The letter suffix at the end of a restricted airspace designation is simply for the convenience of labeling on the map. Sometimes, it breaks down by geographic location (N=North. S=South, etc.). Other times it just breaks into sections (A, B, C, etc.).