Ask And You Shall Receive: Sharpton Goes After Abusive Music

Ok, people this how I see my freedom of speech.

This is America and in America if I want to swear, be mean, spit, fart and call anybody names is my darn god given right as an American

I heard that in an old movie in the 80s or at least the same meaning.

Right on, Marge!

In the US, we have the right of Free Speech (so far). There is no Constitutional Right of Freedom of Being Offended.

Do you all want to be Free, or do you want to be coddled and safe and have somebody else decide what you can hear/read/see/say because someone somewhere might be offended? Or do you want to take ownership yourself of what you hear/read/see/say?

It is really as simple as that.

Originally posted by marg6043
Ok, people this how I see my freedom of speech.

This is America and in America if I want to swear, be mean, spit, fart and call anybody names is my darn god given right as an American

I heard that in an old movie in the 80s

or at least the same meaning.

BTW, what happend to simple civility and being good to your neighbors?


Ok so You or I should have the right to publicly racially or ethnically intimidate someone? Should I be able to go in front of a Mosque or Synagogue and launch into a vile stream of derogatory statements about "those people" in the buildings, attracting much attention doing so? You or I don't personally threaten any of them but are basically obscene towards them. Am I within my rights then? What if I incite violence due to my "free speech" ?

If I am the person in that Mosque or Synagogue, should I not have the right to not be abused in that way, or do I just have to take it or else move? What if it offends me and emotionally hurts my children who are with me in the Mosque or Synagogue? I personally have had to call the police on patrons of mine at a bar who were "talking it up" to some other Saudi patrons of mine for speaking Arabic to each other in late Sept. 2001.

There are already laws in place that do protect people from that, you do not have carte blanche to say anything you want at anytime to anyone you want.

Originally posted by pavil
BTW, what happend to simple civility and being good to your neighbors?

Nothing happened to it. It's a choice each one of us has every single day.

Should I be able to go in front of a Mosque or Synagogue and launch into a vile stream of derogatory statements about "those people" in the buildings, attracting much attention doing so?

You do have that right, as long as you don't incite. That's the line. That's what all this "fire in a crowded theater" stuff is about. You can SAY anything you want, but if you incite people to violence, that's against the law.

You or I don't personally threaten any of them but are basically obscene towards them. Am I within my rights then?

Yes. Unless you're disobeying some sort of "public obscenity" statute or something. Different communities, cities and states have different laws about that.

If I am the person in that Mosque or Synagogue, should I not have the right to not be abused in that way, or do I just have to take it or else move? ...What if it offends me and emotionally hurts my children who are with me in the Mosque or Synagogue?

A person does not have the right NOT to be offended.

you do not have carte blanche to say anything you want at anytime to anyone you want.

That's true. There are, like I said, public obscenity, threatening and even harassment laws in some places. It all depends.

But that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about sexually and racially explicit rap lyrics. If someone hears a rap song and goes out and rapes someone, they can try to blame it on the rap song, saying they were 'incited' to rape, but they won't get very far.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Imus would have fallen with or without Mr. Sharpton.

BH,

There are many threads about Imus...but this is not one of them.

I think the moderators can handle the difficult task of keeping me in line.

Besides, I was speaking from my soul! It was artistry!

indeed!

The T&C has nothing to do with your soul or artistry.
From all appearances, you are playing some type of disingenuous "race-baiting" game, deceptively designed to create anger...while not making any point at all.

[edit on 14-4-2007 by CSIfan]

Originally posted by pavil
Am I within my rights then? What if I incite violence due to my "free speech" ?

There are already laws in place that do protect people from that, you do not have carte blanche to say anything you want at anytime to anyone you want.

There you go!

You hit the nail on the head!

Freedom of Speech has nothing to do with being abusive, or it would never have been in our Constitution.

The "haters" of America come from all walks of life...and they want the right to spread hate, while hiding behind the Constitution.

Originally posted by CSIfan
Freedom of Speech has nothing to do with being abusive, or it would never have been in our Constitution.

You should really study what the First Amendment means. Whether you like it or not, freedom of speech means letting some very offensive people speak.

George Orwell said: “If freedom of speech means anything at all, it is the freedom to say things that people do not want to hear,” and he was right. Multiculturalists who claim that freedom of speech does not include the freedom to offend others are wrong. In the doctrine of John Stuart Mill’s On Liberty, published in 1859, the right to freedom of expression and its conditions are stated clearly. The most fundamental principle of a freely operating liberal society is the right to the “freedom of opinion.” The only exception in which Mill conceived such freedom to be limited was if it were to impose severe harm onto others – and he declared this to be a rare thing.
Source

Freedom of Speech Means Freedom to Offend
The Liberty Papers

Freedom of speech means that, sometimes, we will hear some truly offensive things. When government starts regulating speech based on the fact that it may offend, though, it diminishes freedom for everyone.

The First Amendment has nothing to do with abuse, you're right. But you cannot abuse a person with words...

Freedom of Speech means that any person in America has the right to speak his mind in a public arena, as long as nobody is physically harmed, regardless of whether the message is offensive to others.
...
We cannot allow these achievements to falter because of a small group trying to silence another's ideas, no matter what they are.

In order for us to thrive as a country and as a people, we must be willing to look at both sides of every issue and determine what is right for ourselves.
Source

CSIfan, you can say things like this, even though some might think they are offensive, because of your freedom of speech:

Originally posted by CSIfan
From all appearances, you are playing some type of disingenuous "race-baiting" game, deceptively designed to create anger...while not making any point at all.

It's your opinion and you have a right to state it, no matter how wrong you are. And, in turn, I have the right to choose to be offended or not. I choose not.

[edit on 14-4-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
You should really study what the First Amendment means. Whether you like it or not, freedom of speech means letting some very offensive people speak.

If that's the case, why on Earth is anyone talking about "fixing" Rap?

Now I expect you to be a defender of rap from now on...if you really mean that.

...and let's also abolish the FCC! Why not?

It's your opinion and you have a right to state it, no matter how wrong you are. And, in turn, I have the right to choose to be offended or not. I choose not.

There's more to taking "the high road", than just saying you are...

There's an old saying..."old racists never die, they just smell that way".

[edit on 14-4-2007 by CSIfan]

While I agree some of the lyrics in rap music are offensive I don't agree with censorship of music by the government or even the Rev Sharpton. I'm a parent it is my job to determine what music will be allowed in my house not anybody else's. I read the lyrics and some just wasn't allowed in. It's time and past that parents step up to the plate and do their jobs; it is up to us to teach values and morals; to impart a work ethic. Parenting is a full-time often thankless job we chose to take on. Sometimes a good parent says NO it's what we do. Mind you when I did refuse to allow music, movies and in some cases video games I always explained why.

At no time is it the government's or church's job to determine what children should or shouldn't listen to, read or play.

I would also remind people that our parents most likely didn't approve of our music and thought it would lead to society's downfall. Music is a personnal choice; you can choose to listen or not. I actually like some rap music as Csifan said the beat is compelling at times. We as consumers can control the content of music if it's offensive to you don't buy it and don't listen to but don't try and control someone else.

Originally posted by CSIfan
If that's the case, why on Earth is anyone talking about "fixing" Rap?

I'm not. You are. I have said all along that I support their right to say (and sing) what they say. Snoop and the whole gang.

Originally posted by CSIfan
Now I expect you to be a defender of rap from now on...if you really mean that.

I have defended it all along. I don't like all rap, but I like some of it. But I support their right to make the music 100%. Always have. That's a distinction you don't seem to understand. I don't take the position that if I don't like something I have a right to silence it.

Originally posted by CSIfan
There's more to taking "the high road", than just saying you are...

As demonstrated here?

Originally posted by CSIfan
There's an old saying..."old racists never die, they just smell that way".

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by pavil

If I am the person in that Mosque or Synagogue, should I not have the right to not be abused in that way, or do I just have to take it or else move? ...What if it offends me and emotionally hurts my children who are with me in the Mosque or Synagogue?

A person does not have the right NOT to be offended.

So in the context of some rap and hip hop out there, those women who are offended by it should just block their ears and ignore it, even when others emulate the singers out there in their daily life by treating many women in manners similar to the lyrics of songs. It sounds like a cop out, but women are experiencing that often and you tell me that they should just buck up and take that abuse?

So what recourse would someone have to a protester continually hurtling racial epitaphs at them? Just move? How does the right of freedom of speech of a bigoted person override life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness of the person being verbally abused? They have probably done nothing to deserve the treatment they are receiving yet they have no real right to complain?

Also the argument of "just be a good parent" doesn't work in this society unless you are smothering your children. I raise my family with hopefully good morals and values yet they can go down the street and be exposed to things that I have no control over. Hopefully they make the right decisions but should they have to be exposed to those things in the first place if there were safeguards in place. As one person said, way back when, you couldn't have profanity or derogatory speech in a song. You had to cut a special version for the public airways, not just bleeping out the offending word. What is wrong with doing that again? Artists could still create the explicit versions but any version played on a FCC regulated medium would have to have a "clean" not just "beeped" out version. I understand it is a tightrope to walk.

Originally posted by pavil
So in the context of some rap and hip hop out there, those women who are offended by it should just block their ears and ignore it,

What? Is it being pumped into their homes? People can avoid listening to rap if they want to. Nobody forces anyone to hear it on the radio or MTV... Yes, If women (or anyone) don't want to listen, they shouldn't listen.

even when others emulate the singers out there in their daily life by treating many women in manners similar to the lyrics of songs. It sounds like a cop out, but women are experiencing that often and you tell me that they should just buck up and take that abuse?

No. I didn't say that at all! If a woman is being physically abused, she needs to call the police. There's a clear line between words and actions. CLEAR LINE! If her boyfriend is calling her a ho, she needs to get a new boyfriend.

So what recourse would someone have to a protester continually hurtling racial epitaphs at them?

Don't go to the protest? Realize that there are ignorant people in the world and ignore them?

How does the right of freedom of speech of a bigoted person override life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness of the person being verbally abused?

The spoken word cannot and does not prevent a person from the pursuit of happiness. Words aren't abuse.

Artists could still create the explicit versions but any version played on a FCC regulated medium would have to have a "clean" not just "beeped" out version. I understand it is a tightrope to walk.

I don't really care. If they want to do that, it's ok with me. Free Speech is different than FCC rules. I support the FCC if they want to take all "bad words" off the air. As long as they don't start saying "You can't have shows about homosexuals (or black people or Christians or any subject) because some people find that offensive."

Pavil you make a good point; the artists/recording companies could indeed record two versions of music. I think that it's not a bad idea.

It's true that we only control what comes into our homes but if we do our best to raise our children to have the values and morals we believe in and explain to them why we believe certain music to be offensive then that is the best we can do. I truly believe that our children will ultimately follow our example; of course, they will listen to the music but our voice will be in their ears and our influence will follow them. I'll use my daughter as an example, she is 19 and in college and fully agrees with me that many of the lyrics are horrible and is careful about what she listens to. She likes the beat of rap but doesn't listen to the rappers whose lyrics advocate ill treatment of women and violence.

Originally posted by gallopinghordes
I would also remind people that our parents most likely didn't approve of our music and thought it would lead to society's downfall. Music is a personnal choice; you can choose to listen or not. I actually like some rap music as Csifan said the beat is compelling at times. We as consumers can control the content of music if it's offensive to you don't buy it and don't listen to but don't try and control someone else.

Gallop,
Looks like this is the consensus on the board, so maybe "in the real world" nothing can be done about the nasty lyrics...but I stick by my opinion that this is, by far, the nastiest Corporate attack (on an entire generation) ever...I believe the repercussions will last far into the future.

You make a lot of sense, though.

Originally posted by pavil
You had to cut a special version for the public airways, not just bleeping out the offending word. What is wrong with doing that again? Artists could still create the explicit versions but any version played on a FCC regulated medium would have to have a "clean" not just "beeped" out version. I understand it is a tightrope to walk.

And a tightrope that should still be walked...These nasty lyrics may or may not be protected under the law, but I think they suck. Once again, I'm going to say that I believe it's a form of pornography in words and images and should be regulated in some way, for sure.

Think about this: Could this music be played in a small town on full blast? ...near schools, playgrounds?

What would be the outcome of that? Would the culprit be protected by the people of that town? Would they care about the First Amendment?

Just food for thought...

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

What? Is it being pumped into their homes? People can avoid listening to rap if they want to. Nobody forces anyone to hear it on the radio or MTV... Yes, If women (or anyone) don't want to listen, they shouldn't listen.

No. I didn't say that at all! If a woman is being physically abused, she needs to call the police. There's a clear line between words and actions. CLEAR LINE!

If her boyfriend is calling her a ho, she needs to get a new boyfriend.

BH, even if the women don't listen to the music they are still affected by those that do in today's society. How do you address that if you are a women being called those things? What does she do if a neighbor continually calls her a ho or even worse for example? Why should she be subjected to that constant verbal abuse of herself?

Don't go to the protest? Realize that there are ignorant people in the world and ignore them?

The example I was giving was the protester coming to the persons place of worship. So they should just be denied their freedom of religion in respect to some one's obscene behaviour? They should have to practice their religion in another location?

The spoken word cannot and does not prevent a person from the pursuit of happiness. Words aren't abuse.

On the contrary, words can be abuse, just not physical abuse. You could abuse a child or a wife just with verbal abuse. It leaves lasting scars on an individual in cases.

Originally posted by gallopinghordes
It's true that we only control what comes into our homes but if we do our best to raise our children to have the values and morals we believe in and explain to them why we believe certain music to be offensive then that is the best we can do.

Thank you. My main point is "Is that the best society can do" to help us raise our kids with decent values and morals? Once upon a time we as a nation tried to help promote postive values not just any values.



[edit on 14-4-2007 by pavil]

CSIfan, there is much that can be done about nasty lyrics I may not have made my point clear for that I apologize. We are the ones that can and indeed should be the instrument of change. If the public refuses to buy music that is degrading and refuses to listen to radio stations that play it the recording artist/company loses money. Money talks if they aren't making it they will change how they do business in this case make music. I just don't believe that it should be regulated by the government. By talking to others who may not be aware of the issue we can influence what is listened and by extension what is produced. It is also my understanding that rap music sales are down. I don't have a link proving one way or another.

Originally posted by CSIfan
Think about this: Could this music be played in a small town on full blast? ...near schools, playgrounds?

What would be the outcome of that? Would the culprit be protected by the people of that town? Would they care about the First Amendment?

The content, which is the part protected by the First Amendment, could not properly be used to stop this kind of activity. The fact of extremely loud noise being generated near schools, playgrounds, etc is a disturbance of the peace, and can be curtailed.

The problem would come if loud obnoxious rap music were banned from this scenario, but loud obnoxious Christian music were allowed. Or loud obnoxious classical, or anything else. The selective banning, based on content would be the problem.

Originally posted by pavil
How do you address that if you are a women being called those things? What does she do if a neighbor continually calls her a ho or even worse for example? Why should she be subjected to that constant verbal abuse of herself?

Obscenity is not protected by the First Amendment. If you can convince the law that your neighbor is yelling obscenities at you, you can legally make them stop. There are special definitions for "Obscenity" (which is not protected) and Indecencyand Profanity, which ARE protected.

Pavil, go read the First Amendment. It's clear.

Just remember, if you want to change the First Amendment, you open the door for people who are offended by religion on the airwaves to take action to get it pulled off. The First Amendment also guarantees Freedom of Religion. If you're willing to pull religion out of every public setting, including TV and radio; if you're willing to give up YOUR freedom to say what YOU want; if you're willing to stop saying "God Bless You" or talking about religion at all (lest someone be offended), then you have a good point. But if you only want to oppress things YOU don't like to hear, then you must be willing to allow other people to oppress what YOU say. It's a 2-way street.

Don't learn about the First Amendment from me. Read about it.

I strongly suggest everyone interested in the First Amendment to take the following test. It's very educational.

First Amendment Test