Billy Meier UFO Contact Hoax: Discussion

Originally posted by jritzmann

Sorry for the short post, but I dont even pretend to give this case...ahem, excuse me...garbage any more attention)

Let me respectfully suggest that you have not given this case anywhere near the attention it deserves much less what you pretend to have given it jritzmann.

You have excellent photo imaging detective abilities but beyond that you have never been to Billy's house, nor have you interviewed Billy himself.

These 2 things would be a prime requisite for any authoritative informed view on the Billy Meier case and the photos associated with it.

You have limited yourself to what is available on the web and all photos that you have used for your 'debunking' efforst are at best, third generation.

As far as calling the case 'garbage' I would respectfully suggest otherwise.

But thanks for your continued input, as limited as it is in scope and facts. It is greatly appreciated.

Originally posted by johnlear
But thanks for your continued input, as limited as it is in scope and facts. It is greatly appreciated.

John-How kind of you to marginalize what I've provided now over the past 3 years or so, to somehow promote the case. I'll remind you in your stone cold belief of the case, you have never been to Meier's either (I think you've said that many times here).

I'll also remind you that researchers were challenged by Michael Horn to reopen the case and "any and all evidence" would be made available.

The problem is, they wont provide even the most simple and modest data to be examined. So, it's an empty challenge as they have nothing to show.

Thats quite ok, as I dont need a 1st gen photo to tell there's a model being used. It's obvious in all of it, and blatent in some. Add that in with all the found parts being identified, and photos found to be TV screens...and well...thats enough.

Believe me, if I thought the data was compelling, I'd go. But it's not. It's about as far from compelling as you can get. And I dont need a trip to the swiss countryside (as beautiful as it is) to know that.

Anyway, dont expect any more replies from me in this thread, as I said I've left this case in the dust where it belongs.

[edit on 24-9-2007 by jritzmann]

To call Ritzmann's contributions to ufology in general and Meier in particular as 'limited in scope and facts' is like saying John Lear's achievements in the realm of piloting aircraft are mundane and pedestrian, a step above a school bus driver. One might ask what one has to do with the other, and I would have to agree, if you know what I mean.

The one question I have pondered on this issue is why Mr. Lear continues to champion proven hoaxes such as Meier, plus other theories of the nature of the universe that are similarly unsupportable. It would seem to defeat the motto of this site: Deny Ignorance. I suspect that is why threads such as "Lear as disinfo agent' crop up now and again. The incongruity is obvious, but puzzling. The disinfo agent stuff (which I do not believe) is just an attempted answer to the question of "Why does he do this?"

In another thread on an unrelated issue I pointed out a problem with flawed logic. The issue doesn't matter. The poster wrote back and said, in effect, "Who cares? Don't you realize this site is just for entertainment?" In that context it makes sense. Those people who use this site as a method to get at the truth will continue to be disappointed. We're in a kind of Bizzaro world here where things are the opposite of what they appear. In that sense Mr. Lear is acting his role as Conspiracy Master more like a Ringmaster. It's just a show here. The truth is immaterial. And why not? Is it not appropriate that a conspiracy site is one? Bravo.

It's kind of like finally realizing after years that Deckard in Blade Runner is himself a replicant. That puts a new spin on things.

And you are most heartily welcome for my post.

Originally posted by schuyler
"Why does he do this?"[...]"Who cares? Don't you realize this site is just for entertainment?" In that context it makes sense. Those people who use this site as a method to get at the truth will continue to be disappointed.

Well, if you practice what so many of the skeptics like to toss out, Ockham's Razor.....what makes the most sense with the available facts, and without adding any supposition, is that John Lear doesn't believe any of what he writes.

Here's a man who holds several aviation records, in an amazing number of different airframe configurations. It required a pretty solid grounding in science and engineering to achieve this. So which is easier to believe? He's completely wigged out and in complete denial of the current state of known science.....or he's having an absolute blast stirring up the folk. Heck, it gets him some notoriety and even some air time now and again.

If he's willing to be on display like a carnival sideshow.....I'm willing to accept it and trade insults with him from time to time.

Originally posted by MrPenny

Well, if you practice what so many of the skeptics like to toss out, Ockham's Razor.....what makes the most sense with the available facts, and without adding any supposition, is that John Lear doesn't believe any of what he writes.

In point of fact MrPenny, I believe strongly in all of what I write. Including, but not limited to:

All planets in our solar system are inhabited with people much like oursleves, except vastly more intelligent

The moon has a breathable atmosphere and gravity at least 64% that of earths.

The U.S. has at least 3 and probably more than 3 space stations at least the size of the ISS in orbit around the earth and has had at least one of those space stations in orbit around the earth in 1968 and probably earlier.

The U.S. has a large mining operation both on the moon and Mars. Whatever is mined on either planet is shipped to earth orbit and then flown to earth.

There is a large Navy submarine base below Hawthorne, Nevada.

The Thresher and Scorpion were lost exploring the Pacific Ocean that extends under California and Nevada.

There are at least 3 alien spaceships making at least one of the rings of Saturn. One of these spaceships is approximately 31,000 miles long and 2,400 miles in diameter.

Our own government planned and executed the terror of 911 using Directed Energy Weapons and controlled demolition to destroy the World Trade Center towers and building 7. No airliner was crashed or damaged or shot down on that day. The purpose of 911 was to fabricate a reason to go into Afghanistan to increase the opium production from 14% to 93% (by September of 2007) the profits of the distribution and sale to go to black projects and to fabricate, further, a reason to attack Iraq for the sole purpose of securing their oil for our onw use and sale.

The sole purpose of attacking Iran will be to secure a major portion of their oil and to secure land through which and oil pipeline will extend from the Caspian Sea to the Persian Gulf.

These are a few of my beliefs, MrPenny, I state them here, and I state that I believe them to be true.

Here's a man who holds several aviation records, in an amazing number of different airframe configurations.

Sounds impressive but is not true. I hold, or actually held because most of them have been broken in the past 40 years since I set them (1966), 17 world speed records, including speed around the world, in the Lear Jet Model 24. It was one airplane and not different airframe configurations.

It required a pretty solid grounding in science and engineering to achieve this.

Sounds impressive but no. It only required the skill to fly and navigate and airplane.

So which is easier to believe? He's completely wigged out and in complete denial of the current state of known science.....or he's having an absolute blast stirring up the folk.

Of course you conveniently leave out the third possibility that all I am saying is true.

Heck, it gets him some notoriety and even some air time now and again.

Yes, it does that.

If he's willing to be on display like a carnival sideshow.....I'm willing to accept it and trade insults with him from time to time.

Unctuous snottiness with a leer, from a Lear.

Originally posted by johnlear
You have limited yourself to what is available on the web and all photos that you have used for your 'debunking' efforst are at best, third generation.
As far as calling the case 'garbage' I would respectfully suggest otherwise.
But thanks for your continued input, as limited as it is in scope and facts. It is greatly appreciated.

Mr. Lear, I get the impression you have no idea of some of the actions of Billy Meier and the things he said. I don't see you go indepth with the information at hand which is readily availible on the internet. From my perspective, your input is limited in scope and fact since you don't go into detail and offer your own analysis with the information at hand and cross-correlating. Let me give you a sample, a minor detail of the case. Did you know Meier is a converted muslim? That, in part, would explain his staunch anti-American approach. Did you know that?

There's so much to discover about this man and I suspect you don't have a clue or are unwilling to listen. What does the next Meier comment tell you which is 'just in'. Perhaps a bit anti-Christian driven? Does it correlate with other stuff? You bet.

Billy: Mother Teresa "produced" things she then believed to be real and true. Actually she was living in a religious-sectarian delusion. Mother Teresa was a serious criminal. She was dealing (selling) children and sending/donating about 2 billion/milliard $ to the Pope.

www.gaiaguys.net...
Know what you're defending Mr. Lear. Do you believe everything about the case?

What an angry individual he is, but hey when you belong to a cult what else is there. Preaching about messages of peace with that attitude and call other names in an internet forum sure is really "Manly"
And please do not and I repeat do not under any circumstances use the word "brain" again.......

Lear you said that you "Believe" in meier's story which is ok if that what you believe, but you sound like a broken record with the following :

1: "you have never been to Billy's house"
2."nor have you interviewed Billy himself"
3."You have limited yourself to what is available on the web and all photos that you have used for your 'debunking' efforst are at best, third generation."

So far I understand that you haven't do any of those things either.
So why keep saying them? is it a psychology game or something?
Why say those thing when you haven't do them either? I am missing something here?

If you can conclude your believe about meier without doing exactly what you tell others they haven't do, why can others have the same rights as you to not believe it?

One last thing is with the last comment about third generation photos, as far as I have read there are not even proof that a 1er generation was even available ever. Even for the testing they used lithographs (prints of photos) Have you seem a 1er generation one? because the way you post about that you can't come and say you haven't otherwise what is your point for discussing it? Can you show us or point us where you saw them?

Otherwise "Let me respectfully suggest that you" stop this comments till you have do them yourself first. Because it make no sense at all!!!!

Everybody knows about the Ray Santilli Alien autopsy admitted fake by santilli himself. But lets see what meier said about it:

"An excerpt from a talk between JHWH Ptaah and Billy Meier about the Roswell Incident

256th contact of May 13, 1996:

Billy: "... Another question: Florena told me that I should ask you about the name of the illness the 16-years old girl, who was so slanderously presented as an extraterrestrial in the Santilli film, had caught. What was the girl's illness?"

Ptaah: "Progeria. ...""

Any excuse for that comment will be hilarious (like all the others meier excuses, how many ......) then again the future of human survival was given to a guy that suffers from amnesia. For the love of god...... lol

Are you guys for real? I am starting to think there is more people involved in this hoax promotion than I previously thought. Or some people like attention so much that doesn't matter if it's a negative one.

And before all the excuses and nonsense will come out about it, just think that every excuse that meier (santilli too) used; was always after fatal flaws was discovered in their stories. Meier's being the king of it.

Originally posted by jritzmann

Thats quite ok, as I dont need a 1st gen photo to tell there's a model being used. It's obvious in all of it, and blatent in some. Add that in with all the found parts being identified, and photos found to be TV screens...and well...thats enough.

Having worked in one of the largest model shops in Hollywood and moving into CGI animation for the last several years I have to agree with jritzmann 100% on this one. I don't care if it's a tenth generation photo or scan of something like this laughable pile seen here :

thebiggestsecretpict.online.fr...


You can see where the argument of "too many generations" falls apart, as one can clearly see shadows from the van and other objects, but NONE from the "craft". There are plenty of examples of this to be had, and I would challenge anyone who thinks they can to find an example of an image that is similar in total clarity that has somehow magically "lost" the shading of an object over many generations while other objects retain theirs.

Sorry, but there is no "contamination" here. It's a simple case of it never was.

When they first came out I really was intrigued by the non-hubcap looking models, and thought there really might be something going on, but the more this story unfolded it became obvious what was going on, and I wrote it off as a hoax. So many people think there may not be anything wrong with that, but when I see things like :

in which the following topics are discussed by Ptaah and Billy (god and the prophet) in order of their appearance:

The above is from - www.gaiaguys.net...


Wow! That's more than a little UFO hoax!

Add that up with all the other fake stuff, the dino pics, the TV girls, videos that could have been done with 2 guys with fishing rods that knew how to use a proper flipping technique and tied good knots with light line, ...oh let's not forget the raygun (LOL) which incidentally has a giant trigger mechanism that looks exactly like the kids toys of the day. And why would you need a trigger on a laser gun anyway? A trigger serves a mechanical purpose, wouldn't a button of some type make more logical sense?

What else? Oh the garbage lids, broken UFO parts, oh oh oh...his ex-wife, wow...that's pretty damning right there. Why would you leave your husband who's THE PROPHET???? The guy who gets to be the only person in the world to hang out with GOD???

Pfffffffft....

To buy into any part of this is to buy into all of it, and let's not forget the history lessons of :

The Manson Family
Jones Town
Waco
Heaven's Gate

The burden of proof is on THEM! I bet when he started his cult he never predicted (heh) the Internet, and the powerful tool it would become to bring people together to see through the lies.

at least he had a good message :S Peace and love yea man!!! Spiritual advancement.

Originally posted by johnlear
In point of fact MrPenny, I believe strongly in all of what I write. Including, but not limited to:

All planets in our solar system are inhabited with people much like oursleves, except vastly more intelligent

The moon has a breathable atmosphere and gravity at least 64% that of earths.

etc. etc. all nonsense and you know it. If we want to look at this as entertainment, okay. Uncle John is going to have us gather around so he can tell us a story, a time-honored activity. I would suggest most here do not see it that way. What I don't understand is why you, Mr. Lear, continue to do the field of ufology such a disservice. You have managed to work your way into a position here of Conspiracy Master, some sort of avuncular elder statesman of ufology. Yet you continue to promote this drivel. This reflects poorly on ufology and helps to keep it a fringe subject, unworthy of serious study. For those here on both sides of several fences who would like to see Disclosure happen, this is very frustrating. You are contributing directly to it not happening, plus you misguide others who don’t know any better. Why?

I know that when we use the word 'belief' we have to be very careful because we must tread lightly on anyone's 'beliefs.' We all are supposed to have freedom of religion, etc. so that beliefs are treated as inviolate. Yet that yields a forced acceptance of some pretty wild issues. As far as I know ATS is not a religious site. Its motto is to Deny Ignorance. The question before us is: Why don't you? Your 'beliefs' are contrary to nearly everything science has learned, contrary to the laws of physics, contrary to observation. By and large, they make no sense. They are a child-like fifties vision of life ala Adamski, who visited Venus quite regularly. But, of course, I support your right to have and express them. It is my belief, as hallowed and sacrosanct as any on here, that you, in fact, do not believe this stuff you spout at all.

They do, however, show a remarkable lack of scientific knowledge. But as you said yourself, flying an airplane, though a noble accomplishment in itself, does not require a scientific or engineering background; and, no matter how many certificates you hold, does not make you worthy of deification in an unrelated field. Now, I suspect that (a) you couldn't care less. I also suspect (b) your contrarian views are intentional and with no thought or care as to the actual truth of the matter. And (c) due to your continued presence it is obvious ATS is okay with that. This leads me to a theory. It may not be true--it's just a theory, and we may never know, but it goes something like this:

The Theory of Lear
The Three Amigos happened on John Lear and knew instantly of the potential draw he would be to ATS, so they offered him a 'job.' Since Mr. Lear's star in the UFO field was fading (He said so himself on another thread. His speaker invitations were dwindling.) he thought maybe he could regain some of his illustrious status and maybe even make a few bucks on the side. Nothing wrong with that. When you’re cut out of the will, every dollar counts. So The Amigos said, "Mr. Lear, your job is to keep the pot stirred up, keep the bees buzzing. We have a business that is dependent on 'user generated content.' That means we provide the infrastructure, but our users provide all the content to the site. We don't have any of our own. Our site would be a hollow and empty shell without our users. So part of your job is to generate content, provide page views, and draw people to the site. If you do this well, our revenue goes up and we all benefit, including you."

As a business model this appears to be paying the bills. It does beg the question of 'denying ignorance,' though, doesn't it? Perhaps others can come to some stronger conclusions. Mine is only that the motto ought to be changed to: Deny Everything; Believe Anything. This may lead to a Theory of ATS, but that is beyond the scope of this thread.

Now, if the Theory of Lear is true, I believe Lear has managed to misguide himself. We also know Mr. Lear is a proponent of the theory of reincarnation. The basic idea is that our souls must endure reincarnation until we ‘get it right’ and are granted a pardon from continually being forced to inhabit earthly bodies to learn more lessons (or the same ones over yet again.) Yet Mr. Lear is promoting these demonstrably false ideas of the solar system. I submit that’s bad karma, and unless he changes his ways, he pays. I know he doesn’t want to reincarnate here on Earth again (He said so.) so he has to come clean.

How? Write a book. These posts will scroll off to page two, then oblivion. Perhaps the Akashic Records will have a copy, but for all intents and purposes, these threads are ephemeral and ethereal both. But if Lear writes a book on his life story, that will help him come clean and counter the drivel about the moon having 64% of the gravity of earth. (With a mass of .012 of Earth it would have to be made of lead for that to be true. Sorry, cheese doesn’t cut it.) If he can’t write the book, someone else could help him, just like they helped Corso.

So how about it, Lear? My guess is you have celebrated more birthdays in the past than you have yet to celebrate in the future. “Time’s winged chariot is hurrying near.” Write it all down before it’s too late. Then, maybe you won’t have to come back down here.

John Lear on 911 'No airliner was crashed or damaged or shot down on that day.'



If it's disinformation you want then go ahead and read Mr Lears posts, if you want the truth then it's best to ignore anything he says.

Originally posted by schuyler

that will help him come clean and counter the drivel about the moon having 64% of the gravity of earth. (With a mass of .012 of Earth it would have to be made of lead for that to be true.

Thanks for the post schuyler. Regarding your statement that for the moon to have 64% of Earths gravity, "With a mass of .012 of earth it would have to be made of lead for that to be true."

This, of course, assumes that you know what the density of the earth is. Mainstream science presumes to have worked that out measuring the acceleration of gravity at the earth's surface or by measuring the orbital period of satellites which works out to a density of 4.4 Bags of Pretzels/Can of Beer or for those with less of a sense of humor 5.52g/cm3.

But in fact science has no more idea what the density of the earth is anymore than they know what the density of the moon is. (Heck, they don't even know what gravity is! )

The truth is that the proportion of 5.52g/cm3 representing the density of the earth and 3.3g/cm3 representing the density of the moon was arbitrarily arrived at to fabricate the gravity of the moon as being 1/6th that of earth. 5.52g/cm3 was itself fabricated by hypothesizing an iron core (inner and outer) inside the earth. Like somebody went down and checked? How about that for a fairy tale?

Actually the only difference between authors of fairy tales and mainstream scientific theory is that the scientist has a piece of paper attesting to having attended the required number of frat parties for graduation. That piece of paper is called a 'degree'. And when its piled higher and deeper its called a PhD.

Thanks for the post schuyler, your input is always appreciated.

reply to post by Michael12


I'm relatively new to the UFO phenomenon and I would be grateful if somebody would be kind enough to start a thread detailing this case. I know some of you more knowledgeable members know the subject inside out and have your opinions but I'm sure some of the more younger and new members would be grateful to see a unbiased view of the subject at hand. Theres so much contradicting evidence and theories out there I don't know where to start or what to believe. Judging by some of the evidence I've seen on this thread some of it looks laughable, but I like to make my own judgment and it would be nice if some expert on this case would like to help us newbies out. Just a thought. Thanks.






[edit on 25uTuesday07/27/20 by paul76]

Paul, I suggest checking out this site and saving yourself a lot of time. No new threads are needed on ATS regarding Meier. thebiggestsecret.online.fr...

Paul, you are best to start from the original source
www.figu.org
www.gaiaguys.net

The link provided by yuefo is full of lies

best..

When dealing with the meier case, people must understand without accepting it as an excuse on the part of Billy why stupid things were thrown in with some of the photographic as well as other evidence which by the way does not indicate deceptive fraud but merely a semi-plausible deniablity factors deliberately included so that it gives those who aren't ready to accept the harsh realities of the existence of other intelligent life forms elsewhere in the universe from damaging their psyche.

As one incidence is said to have occured where a man committed suicide by the realisation that the plejarens were actually extraterrestrials from outer space.

The semi-plausible deniability factor integrated into the case is to ensure that those who are mentally and emotionally capable of handling such realities would pass through this filtering stage as harsher realities of the case which unfolds with time and continued exposure, requiring further pre-requisite capacity needed for the person to adequately digest it.

It is unfortunately inevitable that those who vehemently deny and vitriolically attack the case are usually those who are less prepared to accept and handle various information coming from Billy, who through one reason or another have not passed through the filters of semi-plausible deniability factors.

It is a fail safe mechanism that abruptly stops those from continuing any further into the case as a measure to protect them from various information thay aren't evolutionally ready to handle.

Thats why the protrators stop at labelling the meier case a cult, a hoax , a fraud, and continue laughing at some of the photos because it appears dodgy in their eyes without knowing exactly what the circumstantial reasons for why the wise plejaren extraterrestrials allowed their ships to be photographed by billy the way it has.

Of course nothing is left to chance as people with enough gray matter between their ears can use a bit of their wisdom in figuring out why this was necessary and why such a highly developed extraterrestrials chose meier in the first place of all people on this earth.

The answers to this question lies solely with the student to figure out by combing through all available information billy has put out and use his own logical deductive abilities to see how the jigsaw puzzle fits in to the grand scheme of things.

Obviously imbeciles will continue to be imbeciles and disrupt their own chance to get to know the case for what it truly is by first collating all data for analysis before they sook about incongruencies in the pictures and stories, their urge to pass quick and rash judgements will not allow their tongues to be held at bay about.

The gem of meier's case lies in the core of it's mission and that is the spiritual and Creational facts of all that exists as the underlying cause of both material and spiritual aspects of reality.

To get this far requires much effort

I've always thought the wedding cake ufo was upside down--after all, junk belongs on the underside of a garbage can lid, not on top of it.

Originally posted by yuefo

I've always thought the wedding cake ufo was upside down--after all, junk belongs on the underside of a garbage can lid, not on top of it.

Thanks for the post yuefo. I would respectfully caution the use of the word 'junk' in this context.

There are many people who have staked their entire reputation if not careers (yes jritzman, that means you ) on whats on top of the garbage can lid.

How about considering 'alleged' junk. That way, if those who are currently in denial over the wedding cake won't have to backpedal so far.

Know what I mean?

Thanks for the post and your input is always appreciated.

Are you joking with that post? No, I'll ignore your caution and refer to it as junk, as it appears to me to be a hodgepodge of carpet tacks, christmas ornaments and other unidentifiables sitting atop a garbage can lid.

Your dropping Ritzmann's name into your response is laughable, as I'm certain he doesn't feel his career or reputation to be in jeopardy by the imminent diclosure that Meirer isn't a fraud. No, Ritzmann is quite safe.

[edit on 9/26/2007 by yuefo]

Exactly, a pile of junk sat on a picnic table or some other kind of platform, close up to the camera. That's why you don't see the bottom of it.