Billy Meier UFO Contact Hoax: Discussion

Originally posted by MrPenny
You said it...now back it up. Show me examples of people claiming this in ATS. JRitzmann doesn't count, he actually did it, demonstrating how a tiny model can be made to look very far away. With film equipment and no digital tricks.

Actually Mr. Ritzmann did not fulfill my request which I quote below.

I think that perhaps the reason that some people emphasize the irreproducibility of some evidence is because so many scoffers keep bragging about how easily they could reproduce some evidence. Let's settle the matter and have someone reproduce the kind of photos and films the Meier produced with the same kind of equipment that he used. I mean I wish some of these people would stop SAYING they can reproduce photos like the ones taken by Meier and actually SHOW us they can do it.

As you can read in the very first line in the quote above, I was referring to all types of evidence, but in the underlined section I requested photos and films of the same quality as Meier's photos and films. Neither of which JRitzmann did. The photos he took did not have the authentic appearance that Meier photos possess. Ritzmann's photos were unnaturally sharply focused for objects that were supposed to be at a distance from the camera. So, it was easy to determine that the photos were of small models close to the camera rather than large objects far from the camera. He didn't even attempt to produce a film that compared to Meier's as far as I know. So, you are mistaken that he produced the kind of photos that Meier has taken. Furthermore, Meier has made HUNDREDS of photos of ufo's that have never been proven to be fake. Ritzmann made how many...one or two?

I have been a member on this forum for approximately 8 months, so it is too tedious a task to search through the voluminous amount of material that I have read through in that time to locate examples of poster's who have thought they could reproduce fake photos of ufo's. It's kind of like trying to find particular passages in the Bible. It is a massive book, and often a person will know some passages in it, but has no idea where they can locate them, except for those Christians who have the Bible memorized frontward and backward.

Nevertheless, I did find a thread where posters were attempting to produce fakes which shows that none could produce fakes that could compare with the quality of Meier's authentic photos. Here's a link to that thread fake attempts

Originally posted by SkyWay
The photos he took did not have the authentic appearance that Meier photos possess.

Well, we'll probably have to just leave this as a difference of opinion then, 'cause frankly....I think BM's photos are as far from 'authentic appearance', as Scooby Doo is to a real dog.

Scooby Doo is a real dog, because a number of people have named their pet dogs Scooby Doo.

Originally posted by JTruthseeker
Scooby Doo is a real dog, because a number of people have named their pet dogs Scooby Doo.

"When a garbage can lid is identified on a supposedly UFO, perhaps that's exactly what it is."
thebiggestsecret.online.fr...

thebiggestsecretpict.online.fr...

But some people call this a real UFO, therefore it is?

Thoughts for thinkers.

Meier took 63 photos of the WCUFO and one video. Setting up just one credible "model" shot is work enough - just ask, well, Jeff Ritzmann. Setting up 63 flawless photos of a phenomenally complex object requires masterful abilities (as Wally Gentleman, a special effects director on 2001, clearly said).

Setting up 63 clear, close up photos of a garbage can lid with Christmas tree ornaments, and a video wherein one zooms in several hundred feet on said garbage can lid, of a quality not seen even in Hollywood movies (of that or any other period) requires one heck of a garbage can lid and one heck of a magician into fooling you into thinking that it may just not be...a garbage can lid. By golly, he even fooled six forestry experts who, upon seeing a garbage can lid, were hypnotized into thinking that it was actually 40' in the air next to some real, full-sized trees.

Unfortunately, the proponents of the garbage can lid theory demonstrate an all too telling, close and personal relationship with garbage thinking and the desperation to sell such theories bespeaks extremely questionable motivations.

Perhaps rereading my information on the profound failures of Jeff Ritzmann to truly duplicate just ONE of Meier's photos - let alone the film he promised - will help to sober up such lightheadedness. I should add that Ritzmann also claimed that he could duplicate the WCUFO with a model. He has wisely also withdrawn for comparison his own version, crafted, poetically, from a cake pan and some other objects. He did say that it wasn't finished but I would have to disagree; both it and his credibility are indeed finished.

Too harsh? Hey, if you can't stand the heat...don't start trying to bake cakes. And no matter how much topic shifting may go on from this point, let me be clear. All skeptical challenges have failed. And while that won't stop people from making silly statements, it certainly reveals what's been true fro the beginning, distressing as that may be for those who, for whatever reasons, desperately want Meier, his evidence, the entire case in fact, to just be a hoax that they can mercilessly attack and flay with every conceivable kind of nasty, unsubstantiated and untrue accusations.

But as Kal Korff and his, now hostile to him, fellow skeptics are finding out, in the game of cause and effect, when the pendulum returns - in its own time - it may be more of a wrecking ball. Which gives us the opportunity to reconsider that old saying, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

Originally posted by WhiteWash
Ah..the explosions begin.
Noone here is stupid Horn.
Simply because people want proof to substantiate claims that Meier and yourself make, and because they reject the so called "proof" you DO offer, does not make them stupid. It simply means yourself nor meier have conclusively proven that any of the evidence presented is accurate beyond a reasonable doubt. Let's break it down. Pictures of a "raygun" or laser: Upon examining this,
Meier says the aliens took the gun back, so noone can examine nor test it themselves. Very convenient. He also gets caught up in the pictures of alien women who are later found to be people on television. He took pictures of the t.v. screen! Then there are the dinosaur pictures, which were found to be a purposeful blurry shot of a painting. This is conveniently explained as the MIB/Agency people are trying to discredit meier. Then we have the metal samples. Supposedly experts tested these, however whenever anyone has asked repeatedly to test these it is evaded or said they are lost, or some other excuse. Then we have numerous reports that meier saw beamships and even others who were there claim they saw absolutely nothing at the time...oh..only billy can see them...he's special...riiight.

Sorry to intterupt. U forget to mention about his so-called "Original Tjmmanuel Aramic Scroll" which was allegedly destroyed by the Israelist Agent and his mysterious friend ISA Rashid who went MIA or presumely dead, therefore only he ( Billy ) has the only german translated text of TJmmanuel.

Originally posted by WhiteWash
There is NO evidence
to examine thus far that can be taken seriously. What do you expect. People have asked you AND Meier to present something which we can believe beyond doubt. This hasn't been done because you Cannot do it.
In my opinion Meier and his clan are a Cult, and the message(s) he and you are spreading are no different from any other cult.
Def. of Cult
If you or Meier have ANYTHING to disclose, of a nature that can be believed beyond a shadow of a doubt, by all means please present it all.
Send whatever you have to Springer/ATS for analysis.

[edit on 29-4-2007 by WhiteWash]

What do u have to say about that, Micheal? Too much coincidence, dont u think so? Care to provide new evidences or prophecies?

Since my questions about this laser ray gun were ignored, I will explain with FACTS why its fake.

When you burn something you get heat, plasma, light, ash and sound. If this laser popped a hole through a tree, the material in the beam path has to go somewhere and fast. The super heated wood turns into a jet of hot plasma and a bit of ash and is ejected out toward the incoming beam at super sonic speeds and makes a loud bang. So if Billy was near the tree (5 meters or less), his hand would have been burnt and any near by people would have heard the blast. All that wood had to go somewhere!

www.lavallab.com...

He would also be blind if he had no full wrap around laser googles meant for the lasers spectrum.

I didnt read every page of this topic dont have that much spare time...
But that gun is laughable lol. I also seen michael mention nobody has ever been able to recreate any of these pics? sorry but thats an out and out lie!
I watched a show from years ago called UFO on tv and it showed a man replicate a lot of these photos by simply throwing a frisby like object into the sky and taking a picture of it and they looked very real!
He also mentioned that using trees and things like that made it harder for people to debunk because it made it look like the object really was far away.
He also used tricks like dangling serveal ufos on a piece of strick over a broom pole and holding its far out then taking a pic making it look like a clear cluster of ufo's.
So before claiming nobody has ever recreated anything like what his pictured maybe look around a bit more (although im sure you would hate to find proof his a fraud)
You also like to mention how a man with just one arm couldnt possibly do any of these things such as the hole in the tree but if you really are trying to be open minded have you ever questioned the fact of the other person who was holding the plastic gun?
or maybe his large family who live in a run down shack and so helping there father making fraudulent pictures,evidence to earn some money is actually quite plausable?

Originally posted by JTruthseeker
Scooby Doo is a real dog, because a number of people have named their pet dogs Scooby Doo.

Dude, you really needed some LOLs behind that..... like that.

What's the name of that turd running around on South Park?

Gee, I must be psychic. Allow me to quote myself:

"Too harsh? Hey, if you can't stand the heat...don't start trying to bake cakes. And no matter how much topic shifting may go on from this point, let me be clear. All skeptical challenges have failed. And while that won't stop people from making silly statements, it certainly reveals what's been true from the beginning, distressing as that may be for those who, for whatever reasons, desperately want Meier, his evidence, the entire case in fact, to just be a hoax that they can mercilessly attack and flay with every conceivable kind of nasty, unsubstantiated and untrue accusations."

And newcomers, read the entire thread, especially the already posted answers, and links to them, to your, er, challenges.

Originally posted by Michael12
And while that won't stop people from making silly statements

Well, if the shoe fits......

I have to say the ray gun looks rediculous, but as mentioned before who knows how such gun would look like. We can all agree that the guy did a nice job on some of his pictures and some movies, the wedding cake movie is a nice piece of movie making for that time, no idea how it's done though.

Edit: Are there any photo's with a landed craft? Since he met them, he probably made some while they where on the ground no?.

[edit on 2/5/2007 by Cygnific]

Who's making false statements? When the program comes back on tv (they put it on quite often) I will take note of the guys name and search around for his FAKE pictures and post them here.
I look forward to seeing how you respond to them.

*edit* Mr. Horn next time you talk to Mr. Meier could you please ask him to ask the Plejaren why they on more then one occasion have flew there craft into the thick branches of trees?
It may be just me who thinks its a little odd that they fly into trees but hey what do I know im not the one flying!

[edit on 2-5-2007 by MrRobarto]

Re landed craft: While it's hard to find any of the familiar disk-shaped UFOs, there are several at www.theyfly.com... (See: WCUFO 4. - 7.). These may not entirely satisfy because only 7. reveals the base of the object.

Re craft in trees: At the same page, photos WCUFO 8. - 12., as well as photos 3. and 16. - 20. at www.theyfly.com... are examples of the UFOs in/around trees and were done so as to provide objects of known size (the full-size trees) for reference/comparison so that people could determine that the UFOs were also large objects - and not small models.

Obviously, the alleged ETs are smart enough to know how to start a controversy, how to keep "absolute proof" just out of the reach of those who can't handle it and provide sufficient evidence/proof for those who can reason their way to it.

Originally posted by Michael12
Obviously, the alleged ETs are smart enough to know how to start a controversy, how to keep "absolute proof" just out of the reach of those who can't handle it and provide sufficient evidence/proof for those who can reason their way to it.

This is not really for or in response to Michael12 because I don't think there is much that can be done to help him at this point. Some of the Meier pictures are very well done. But anyone who looks at the Wedding Cake Photos or the Ray Gun Photos (posted early in this thread) and does not break out into a fit of laughter within a few seconds has a screw loose somewhere. They aren't even good fakes. the fact they are so hoakey shows, I think, a contempt for the believers that is really amazing by itself. The Meier folks aren't even trying anymore.

Beyond that, though, several of the photographs are proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be fakes. For example, Ground Saucer Watch (now defunct) did a photo analysis of several of the pictures and found they were suspended by string. David Biedny did an analysis of a photo by essentially taking it apart and found clear evidence of a multiple exposure using one negative overlaying another.

This evidence is good enough to submit in a court of law and, of course, evidence of fakery over even a few of the photos throws them all in the same light. The defense of the proven fakes is pretty typical: It's a 'conspiracy' to discredit Meier. Someone "intentionally doctored" the photos to put the string IN.

It reminds me of Arlo Gutherie's defense when he was arrested for dumping a load of garbage beside the road, related in "Alice's Restaurant." When presented with a letter addressed to him found in the pile of garbage, he responded, "Yes, sir, I PUT that letter underneath that pile of garbage!"

By any normal measure the Billy Meier material should have been relegated to the garbage pile a long time ago. That it still excites as much interest as it does may show the tenacity of its believers, but it isn't rational behavior. Given the mass of evidence against this hoax, it is NOT 'reasonable' to continue to believe it. The believers can protest all they want, but they are still idiots.

Hmmm, what was that about name calling on this forum? I guess the skeptics are getting a little...frustrated.

Note: The Ground Saucer Watch theories were easily debunked in the Investigative Reports...oh, I guess somebody didn't do their homework (big surprise). Some more info on denial can be found here: www.tjresearch.info...

Note: David Biedney REFUSED to demonstrate his silly theory...which was totally refuted in the original investigation, by the testimony of the people who sold Meier the only "photographic equipment" he had, i.e. cameras, tripod and film. He never possessed either the knowledge or the equipment for faking his photos and all who examined them agreed there were neither models nor manipulations used (as anyone who's done their homework - and who possess common sense can tell).

Biedney further refused to declare that the next photo in the series was a "double exposure"...or that he could duplicate it...of course.

As a friend of mine (and UFO SKEPTIC) with 50 years in the film, special effects industry said, "Meier's photo is actually a TRIPLE exposure, most likely in camera. If the
critic (Biedney) claims otherwise, he should duplicate it." End of Biedney.

BTW, I actually LOVE these softball challenges because the new people who pop in then get directed to the info that easily rebuts the nonsense. But I must say, whatever motivates the skeptics, payroll, vendetta (for what?), ignorance, etc. they serve the purpose long foretold, i.e. that they would unwittingly help promote the Meier case - and ultimately the huge UFO cover-up.

Anyone else notice that NONE of the skeptics here have submitted their own photos...or duplicated the sounds?

Now don't disappoint me, let's have some more nasty, nonsensical, name-calling nattering to keep things lively here!

And thanks for the platform!

Originally posted by Michael12
I guess the skeptics are getting a little...frustrated.

Yeah, the entertainment level is dropping fast.

After all, I'm just waiting to see if Michael Horn will throw one of his classic tantrums, and possibly get banned from ATS again.

Originally posted by Michael12
Re landed craft: While it's hard to find any of the familiar disk-shaped UFOs, there are several at www.theyfly.com... (See: WCUFO 4. - 7.). These may not entirely satisfy because only 7. reveals the base of the object.

Thanks Michael, but there is no photo with a craft landed on the ground. They all somehow dont show the whole craft infront of the building, even picture 7 doesn't show the whole base. Could you tell me how they land and keep stable on the ground?

Originally posted by Michael12
Hmmm, what was that about name calling on this forum? I guess the skeptics are getting a little...frustrated.

Note: The Ground Saucer Watch theories were easily debunked in the Investigative Reports...oh, I guess somebody didn't do their homework (big surprise). Some more info on denial can be found here: www.tjresearch.info...

My only frustration is people who do not understand that it's OVER.

A little more mud for the water.

source

You are looking at the bottom of an art deco pressure cooker from the 1940's. My Uncle had one in his shed that I played with as a child.

1- Vent hole for the upper chamber.
2- Holes at the bottom of the chamber to allow the liquid to drain back into the pot as it condensed.

I have no idea what all the stuff he stuck on top of it is. Just shiney hardware I guess.

If you could see the other side you would find a little gizmo sticking out that is the bottom of the pressure relief valve. I don't have a copy but there is another photo of this contraption he pieced together where you can see the bottom of the pressure relief valve. Since nobody home cans food any longer people have not noticed what this is I guess

If you want to believe badly enough any old UFO will do I guess. To bad this sort of tripe is destroying the real research. I believe there is another video in the works. I'm sure I read that recently. If someone else mentioned it I apologize. I'm not going to buy a copy.

If you look on the link I provided you will find another deco object or two. Seems Billy had a penchant for art deco. At least a couple of the others are street light fixtures sans bulbs. In the 90's, while these discussions were all on the newsgroups, I ran into a guy who had actually dug up the catalog's for a couple of them. Still people believed? Go figure.

The photographer was not to good at fakes either. Notice that the vehicle in the background is in focus. Now look at the UFO and the amount of focal blur. The fake UFO is hanging right in front of the camera to make it look larger.