no I think hsi point is very valid.

evolution says we descended from a common ancestor.

ok but according to natural selection, the common ancestor shouldnt exist anymore due to more suitable changes/mutations and what not causing the weaker (the common ancestor, aka old) to die out because there is now something better.
this is how evolution works however this is not what we see in the world today.

everything has its place and everythinig had its purpose. scores of symbiotic relationships show that over 95% of living organisms on planet earth need each other. example: plants need insects and insects need plants. look at the food chain and the cycle it runs.

and to answer you lilitu.... evolution goes against both the first and second laws of thermodynamcs, which are laws that govern evergy/matter in open and closed systems.
energy is first of all destructive unless there is something designed to utilize the energy. like plants they utilize the suns energy through photosynthesis.
sceintists today cant even make life in the lab.... they havent yet and still dont know how its possible. but they assume it happened because the only other explanation would be that God did it. and that it unthinkable to some.
the evolution of the universe goes against many scientific laws, plus it doesnt explain how or why we have these laws (gravity, inertia, etc).
micro evolution is the only evolution that has ever been observed or proven. all others are based off of pure speculation, you dont know if they really happened. and there is no evidence that plants and animals are related to each other (according to Darwin they are).

im off to play some softball, maybe one of my arms will evolve into a baseball bat, that would be very beneficial to my survival I thnk, no one would want to mug me.

Please don't confuse yourself by thinking that all life developed from one common ancestor; we developed from a series of common single-celled ancestors hence life was extremely varied then allowing it to be even more varied now.

It should not have escaped your notice also that the laws of thermodynamics apply to matter in random or chaotic circumstances, evolution is netiher random nor chaos.

Originally posted by Naboo the Enigma
Please don't confuse yourself by thinking that all life developed from one common ancestor; we developed from a series of common single-celled ancestors hence life was extremely varied then allowing it to be even more varied now.

It should not have escaped your notice also that the laws of thermodynamics apply to matter in random or chaotic circumstances, evolution is netiher random nor chaos.

but it started out that way, it had to. order calls for something putting everything into order. things dont just fall into order by themselves, that is against the laws of TD.

you just proved me right dude, (insert foot into mouth) and if you cant see that. im sorry, cant help you there.

Originally posted by Vipassana
I think Evolution is absolutely real and is a process of God. I dont see why everyone has to divide these concepts in 2. Just because evolution has essentially been scientifically proven doesnt mean there's no god. And just because the theory of evolution has some gaps doesn't mean there is a god either.

Everything makes a lot more sense when you combine them. God is expressing himself in human form, and to do that it took millions of years of evolution and possibly help from aliens.

I do not agree with your alien theory. Isn't God the creator of all things? The all knowing all powerfull? If he created us and aliens really do exist then he also created them as well. Even if Satan is responsible for fallen angels and probably aliens God still created Satan. God created everything and is a part of everything. The Father Son and Holy Spirit are of one.

However, I do agree with you when you talk about the 2 being part of one. I believe everything changes and evolves to an extent and believe God set it up that way... This helps the physical bodies to adapt, like another person said in this post. All that we know is what we can see in this physical world, everything else is speculation until we die or until it presented to us by God himself.

Originally posted by HruthTurts

Originally posted by Vipassana
I think Evolution is absolutely real and is a process of God. I dont see why everyone has to divide these concepts in 2. Just because evolution has essentially been scientifically proven doesnt mean there's no god. And just because the theory of evolution has some gaps doesn't mean there is a god either.

Everything makes a lot more sense when you combine them. God is expressing himself in human form, and to do that it took millions of years of evolution and possibly help from aliens.

I do not agree with your alien theory. Isn't God the creator of all things? The all knowing all powerfull? If he created us and aliens really do exist then he also created them as well. Even if Satan is responsible for fallen angels and probably aliens God still created Satan. God created everything and is a part of everything. The Father Son and Holy Spirit are of one.

However, I do agree with you when you talk about the 2 being part of one. I believe everything changes and evolves to an extent and believe God set it up that way... This helps the physical bodies to adapt, like another person said in this post. All that we know is what we can see in this physical world, everything else is speculation until we die or until it presented to us by God himself.

Well said, the bible states that God/Jesus created all things. he does not need evolution to get everything we see today. Micro evolution (for lack of a better term) does not go against the bible, and we have never seen it go to the extent of macro evolution. dogs will produce a variety of dogs and the same with all other kinds of animals.

oh and one assumption implied during on of these pasts posts..... our common ancestors were single cells organisms? arent you assuming that muliple single-celled organisms spontaneously generated simultaneously? your lucky if you even get one to do it one its own... .scientists in the lab with all their speculation and theories on how life began cant even make life in a dish. what makes you think it can do it on its own? what makes you think that? is it faith?

Originally posted by Methuselah
...scientists in the lab with all their speculation and theories on how life began cant even make life in a dish. what makes you think it can do it on its own? what makes you think that? is it faith?

No faith is required. The origin of life is still very much a mystery but not knowing the answer doesn't mean we throw in the towel and assume The Great Pumpkin must have done it. Aside from being unscientific and unprogressive, it is a blatant intellectual cop-out. It doesn't take any intelligence to believe gods did it. In fact the more doltish a person is the easier it becomes to believe in those myths.

No faith is required. The origin of life is still very much a mystery but not knowing the answer doesn't mean we throw in the towel and assume The Great Pumpkin must have done it. Aside from being unscientific and unprogressive, it is a blatant intellectual cop-out. It doesn't take any intelligence to believe gods did it. In fact the more doltish a person is the easier it becomes to believe in those myths.

dude, I can say the same thing about God, I dont know how he exists or how he created the world from nothing. both require the same thing, faith. until you can show scientific evidence that life was randomly generated in a pool of chemicals by chance, then im sorry, your theory requires some faith, if not then you are assuming... and im sure you know what assuming does.

Originally posted by DarkSide

Originally posted by Johnmike
Evolution is a theory. It is possible. Maybe even likely. But it is no fact, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

A scientific theory is not a guess though

No but in this case it is,, just look at how many times the phrase "it must be assumed" or "assuming this or that happened" in Darwins and Dawkins books. If anything, evolution is just like they think intelligent design is. It is the religion of Atheism infused into our public schools behind the guise of science.

Evolution is a Crock

- Con

Methman, I've been keeping out of this discussion because: a) we've been here before; b) you are incapable of understanding very simple scientific concepts; and c) due to a and b, this post will be a total waste of my brain glucose. Indeed, if I could give Naboo any advice, I would tell him to turn his back on you (naboo will get that - great username by the way).

However, I was bored and thought I'd stop by to say hello and to point out the quoted part above is just total rubbish. You carry on the same vacuous claims in your last post too.

Chemistry is not random. When I add copper oxide to sulphuric acid and heat, it is not random that I find a blue solution of copper sulphate. Similarly, when I crystallise the copper sulphate, the very ordered form produced doesn't require magic, and neither does a snowflake when it forms from water molecules.

so if these scientific concepts are so simple then either you are a)lying and they are really difficult and complex, your b)you are calling me stupid. either way common sense well tell you that your chemicals have to evolve as well. they dont just fall into place.

snowflakes are caused by a process, an existing process.
see this is the point where you get lost. there are already processes that take care of these things, im talking about before when there werent processes. your concept is based off of todays processes that take place. go back and figure out how these processes got started.
chemical evolution is very complex, im sure you know exactly how complex it is so ill leave it to you to explain since your going to anyway.

I would tell him to turn his back on you

its not like he was really challenging me before.... its too bad you had to come to his rescue ( or attempt to)

you know, if you really didnt want to be on this thread, then why are you? because you feel you have to defend your beliefs? because if it were science you were defending, you would leave it alone instead. what do you have to defend if you are defending facts?

in reply to Conspiriology
well said, thats exactly what it is... there are so many things being taught in the schools that arent even true and have been proven wrong or even hoax. now why would you teach that if its fake or wrong? thats actually against many state laws.
Evolution = state-funded religion. and thats sad.

Originally posted by Methuselah
so if these scientific concepts are so simple then either you are a)lying and they are really difficult and complex, your b)you are calling me stupid. either way common sense well tell you that your chemicals have to evolve as well. they dont just fall into place.

They are pretty simple, but I guess it's all a bit relative...

But, yeah, you could view the gradual appearance of complex organic chemicals as a form of 'evolution', not in the true evolutionary theory sense though. It's similar to the way that stars form from simple elements and produce more 'complex' elements when they go nova. It's just what these things do, chemicals like to react, physics happens. It's in their nature.

What you really mean is that the processes are 'undirected' by something like the hand of a divine biochemist, rather than random.

snowflakes are caused by a process, an existing process.
see this is the point where you get lost. there are already processes that take care of these things, im talking about before when there werent processes. your concept is based off of todays processes that take place. go back and figure out how these processes got started.
chemical evolution is very complex, im sure you know exactly how complex it is so ill leave it to you to explain since your going to anyway.

Well, I suppose this is where I get lost, because I have no idea what 'before there weren't processes' means in this context. We know how they got started, by the formation of organic compounds, which then produced more complex organic compounds. The steps between complex organic compounds and replicators is more difficult to uncover. But not unassailable.

However, that's not what I mean by simple and complex. I'm talking about simple concepts like the evolution is not just a random process, and neither is the development of complex organic chemistry.

As I said, the formation of copper sulphate from copper oxide and sulphuric acid with a bit of heat is not random. If it was, it would make school chem classes a bit of a joke.

I would tell him to turn his back on you

its not like he was really challenging me before.... its too bad you had to come to his rescue ( or attempt to)

It's a sort of cultural reference related to his username that you probably won't get. Don't worry about it. Naboo was doing pretty well, but I'm not surprised that you think you are doing fine and dandy.

you know, if you really didnt want to be on this thread, then why are you? because you feel you have to defend your beliefs? because if it were science you were defending, you would leave it alone instead. what do you have to defend if you are defending facts?

I suppose it's because I do stupid things. I have this sort of teachers reflex, whereby when I see an obvious canard I just have this urge to correct it in an effort to deny ignorance. I can hold it off for a while, but it sometimes gets the better of me. Plus, I just wanted to say hi.

I don't really need to defend my 'beliefs', as your attacks on science are meaningless apart from being a reflection on you. Indeed, similarly, I have come to accept that my responses to you are also meaningless - you can take a person to knowledge, but you can't make them do the learnin'.

Evolution = state-funded religion. and thats sad.

You see, these are the very simple concepts I mean. Evolution = science. That's why it's taught in the science classroom. The problem is that it is inconsistent with your bible-based view of reality, but reality don't give a fig about your interpretation of the bible, or the bible itself.

[edit on 25-2-2008 by melatonin]

roflol

im not even going to reply to this last post, rather im going to answer a previous post (one of the firsts replies) and see if that sheds some light on the topic here.

I see what you are saying but hear me out. Religion has thrown this subject completely out of context. You can be a Christian and still believe in evolution. It is very obvious that the living creatures on Earth have been adapting to their surroundings for many, many years. Just because you think animals adapt does not mean you have to believe in "The Big Bang Theory" or anything like that.

I will take myself as an example. I never developed lower wisdom teeth. I did however develop the upper half. Does this mean I am a freak of nature or is it nature saying humans don't need them anymore? I honestly don't know but I find it very interesting.

Man may never know the absolute truth but I suppose this is why people call it faith.

ok first off I dont see how religion has thrown this subject out of context. we believe that facts are facts and theories are theories, facts do no include some theories and exclude others, that is not how science works.

yes you can be a Christian and believe in "micro" evolution. micro evolution only. we have seen animals take on small changes, example: some fresh water fish can actually adapt to salt water, and vise versa. some animals, due to environmental changes can survive easier thus produce and populate more.
these changes are indeed scientific and do happen and have no conflict with the bible whatsoever.

Wisdom teeth is a loss of genetic information (again this goes with the second law of TD) and it may also be that we simply cannot fit the teeth in our mouths these days because man has been gradually, over the past feww thousand years, getting smaller in skeletal structure. has nothing to do with no longer needing them because of evolution. if anything we are devolving.

Meth,

I am going to follow melatonin's advice and turn my back on this thread (thank you melatonin for being the first on this site with a Mighty Boosh reference), it is obvious that you do not have the scientific grounding to debate properly on this subject and are unwilling to learn from those with a much better understanding of evolution. If this subject interests you then you would be doing yourself a favour if you read some of Richard Dawkins' work, granted The God Delusion may not be your cup of tea, but The Selfish Gene, The Blind Watchmaker and Climbing Mount Improbable are excellent works on the subjects of evolution, natural selection and genetics. Feel free to alternate your studies with creationist literature if you feel a trilogy of Dawkins' work is too much for you! Even if you do not believe what Dawkins writes, you will at least come on here armed with a better unsderstanding of the opposition.

Originally posted by Methuselah

Originally posted by Naboo the Enigma
Please don't confuse yourself by thinking that all life developed from one common ancestor; we developed from a series of common single-celled ancestors hence life was extremely varied then allowing it to be even more varied now.

It should not have escaped your notice also that the laws of thermodynamics apply to matter in random or chaotic circumstances, evolution is netiher random nor chaos.

but it started out that way, it had to. order calls for something putting everything into order. things dont just fall into order by themselves, that is against the laws of TD.

you just proved me right dude, (insert foot into mouth) and if you cant see that. im sorry, cant help you there.

I disagree.

Natural selection and enviromental habitat dictate evolutionary change - over the course of millions of years. It's not chaos - no. But it IS slow and occurs over vast periods of time that are unimaginable to some people out there.

Hence the misconception that 'nature' could not possibly create something so perfect. Actually - YES - given enough time, nature CAN create perfection! Evolultion perfects every organism over vast periods until to some people's limited view - they seem somehow 'created by some greater intelligence'.

However, they are not created, they are merely, (and amazingly well) evolved.

J.

if you say so, believe what you want to believe, cuz thats exactly what you are doing... believing.

your only defense the response to everything I gave you was "you dont understand how evolution works" or something to that effect.

not a very good defense, I never claimed that my religion of fact, I believe in it and I have scientific evidence to support it (support not prove)

its cool tho, i suppose one day you will find out who was right.