Head-2-Head: The Death Penalty

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posted on Apr, 6 2007 @ 12:13 PM
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  • Participants
    Pro - enjoies05
    Con - ImpliedChaos

  • Terms

    The terms for this debate are as follows:

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    8. enjoies05 will post first, at which time the debate will begin.


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  • Participation

    These are the proposed terms for this debate. Participants should ensure that they understand and agree to them prior to posting to this thread.

    Once a post has been made, the terms are binding.

    Good Luck!

    [edit on 4/6/2007 by chissler]




  • posted on Apr, 6 2007 @ 02:13 PM
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    Alright, this should be fun. I’ll be giving it my best shot.


    Capital Punishment (Death Penalty)


    capital punishment: death penalty (putting a condemned person to death)
    wordnet.princeton.edu..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">Link



    I am in favor of the Death Penalty. I believe that if a person is accused of murdering and/or rape of another person they should receive the death penalty. Once they are sure that the person is guilty they should be executed. It doesn’t matter if they killed/raped one person or one hundred people; they either took an innocent person’s live away or damaged that person and their loved ones for the rest of their life.

    Why?

    Well first of all – The person guilty of the crimes chose to commit his or her crimes. No one forced them to murder or rape somebody. They had to think of it themselves, plan it out, and make themselves commit the act. They did the crime and need to pay for it. They themselves ruined the lives of many and possibly ended the lives of many as well.

    You might say that if you execute the person guilty of the crime it is just as bad as the crime they committed. Well I think it is not. They committed the act against an innocent person. No innocent person deserves to be murdered or raped. If someone does that act to an innocent person they DO deserve to be executed. There is a difference between killing/raping an innocent person and killing a person guilty of it.

    If the person gets life in prison instead of the death penalty I think there could be many problems. But first of all, why should a murderer or a rapist get a roof over his head and food to eat, books to read, get educated, a TV for entertainment and get cared for by doctors for the rest of their lives nothing while there are homeless people all over the world living on the streets with nothing who deserve it much more? Should homeless and other people in hard times commit crimes so they can get cared for? And it’s getting paid for with taxpayer’s money. I’d rather have the money go to helping the homeless instead of criminals. I don’t think that is right at all. Ok, onto the prison…

    If you give a criminal a life sentence in prison, what do they have to lose? Nothing. They could try to escape, leaving more innocent people in danger out of jail if they manage to escape. Or, since they have nothing to lose, go after another inmate, or even a worker at the prison. More innocent people are at risk because the criminal is spending the rest of their life inside of a prison. Once someone murders or rapes a person, they have no problem with doing it again.

    I say save the lives of more innocent people, not murders or rapists. Give them what they deserve, the death penalty. One innocent person killed or raped is tragic enough; we don’t need anymore to go through the same thing.

    Good luck, ImpliedChaos!



    posted on Apr, 7 2007 @ 04:51 AM
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    First I'd like to start off by saying good, luck to my opponent, enjoies05



    The death penalty should be abolished for a myriad of reasons. Among them is that it does act as a successful deterrent, and it is a flawed form of justice.
    One of the reasons why the death penalty was implemented was to prevent other criminals from committing the same crime. The logic being that if you know you might be put to death for murdering another person, knowing the punishment, you are not going to commit the crime. It has proven by Amnesty International that the crime rate tends to be lower in the states, which do not have execution of criminals as capital punishment than in the states, which have do it. For example;


    In the first four months of 1992, New York City (a non-death penalty state) reduced its crime rate, by 11% after it abolished death penalty as the capital punishment. In contrast, in the fall of 1987 after Louisiana executed eight people in eight and a half weeks, the murder rate in New Orleans rose by 16.39%
    External Source


    That shows that the threat of death does not curb crime. So, if one of the main purposes for the death penalty is to act as a deterrent then its not doing its job and therefore should not longer be in effect.

    Another reason why the death penalty should be abolished, and in my opinion the most important is that it is flawed. Innocent people are being executed

    As of November 2006, 123 innocent people have been released from death rowExternal Source
    123 could have been murdered by the government, if by luck they had not had been proven innocent. Now think about all the other people who were not released from death row. It is my opinion that the sanctioned death of one innocent individual, is far too many. And what do you think is causing all of these wrongful convictions? Is it strong evidence that just happened to point to the wrong person? No. The main factors leading to a wrongful conviction include

    • Inadequate legal representation
    • Police and prosecutorial misconduct
    • Perjured testimony and mistaken eyewitness testimony
    • Racial prejudice
    • Jailhouse "snitch" testimony
    • Suppression and/or misinterpretation of mitigating evidence
    • Community/political pressure to solve a case

    External Source

    Lets face it the Justice system with regards to capital punishment is inhumane at best, and grossly negligent at its worse. How can we trust the legal system to put to death the right people for its crimes, when it has been proven that they seem to have trouble doing so? It is my opinion that the lack of effectiveness, in itself, along with others reasons should cause for the end of death penalty executions



    posted on Apr, 8 2007 @ 09:59 AM
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    Deterring Crime

    Well first of all, I think it is safe to say that some murderers and rapists are driven to commit their crimes. They will commit them whether they get life in prison or the death penalty. It these cases the death penalty is making sure that these criminals, who do not care about the consequences of their crimes can never commit them again.

    Second – in situations where the person is thinking of committing a crime, but not absolutely driven to do so, the death penalty will stop more people from committing crimes than life in prison, where the have a chance of getting out. Humans have a natural fear of dying, therefore in a person is not 100% committed to the crime the death penalty has a better chance of stopping the person from attempting the crime.

    As for the two examples you posted; has it been proven that the death penalty has anything to do with the lowering and rising of crimes rates? Could it be possible that it is just a coincidence? It does not make any sense to me. People start committing more crimes when they thought they would get the death penalty? I think there may have been other reasons for the crime level changes. Besides, we don’t really know exactly what causes people to commit crimes or stop committing crimes.


    Innocent People Being Killed

    Unfortunately, we do not live in a perfect world and people make mistakes. There will always be the possibility of an innocent person being executed, but if you take away the death penalty there is a greater chance of losing many more innocent lives due to killings.

    And think about it…
    Thousands of innocent people are killed in car accidents. Should we take away cars? Innocent people die in wars and in many other ways.

    Sadly, an innocent person getting killed is a part of life, but in the case of the death penalty many more innocent lives will be saved then taken away.



    posted on Apr, 8 2007 @ 05:09 PM
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    Originally posted by enjoies05 There will always be the possibility of an innocent person being executed, but if you take away the death penalty there is a greater chance of losing many more innocent lives due to killings.


    By this statement you are inferring that, the death penalty deters killings. As I have already proven that is not the case. But if we follow your logic, that means that in the states where the death penalty is not an option should have a higher murder rate correct? Well that turns out not to be the case.In the South (where more executions occur), the murder rate increases .


    According to the FBI's Preliminary Uniform Crime Report for 2002, the murder rate in the South increased by 2.1% while the murder rate in the Northeast decreased by almost 5%. The South accounts for 82% of all executions since 1976; the Northeast accounts for less than 1%. www.deathpenaltyinfo.org..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">External Source



    Originally posted by enjoies05 …has it been proven that the death penalty has anything to do with the lowering and rising of crimes rates?

    Good question, it has been proven that the death penalty has nothing to do with the increase/decrease of crime rates. That statistics prove that Capital punishment is not (as you suggested) decreasing the chance of losing innocent lives.. This means that for whatever reason, most likely a variety of factors, the death penalty is NOT doing its job of deterring people.


    Originally posted by enjoies05 Sadly, an innocent person getting killed is a part of life, but in the case of the death penalty many more innocent lives will be saved then taken away


    Can you prove that with any statistical evidence?

    The purpose of the justice system in the United States was defined in 1968 .The President's Commission defined the criminal justice system as the means for society to "enforce the standards of conduct necessary to protect individuals and the community".
    Source Instead of giving a criminal the death penalty, they should be given life without the possibility of parole, inside a maximum security prison. With this option you are protecting the public without committing a court sanctioned murder. You mentioned earlier that prisoners can escape, you are right, but how many times has a person in serving life in a MAX prison escaped? Most murders are crimes of passion. Meaning, there was an argument of some sort, things escalated and a person snapped. These people are highly unlikely to kill again, But if the court deems that they are dangerous to other prisoners then put them into solitary confinement.

    Let me ask you this. Since you obviously have a ‘the ends justifies the means’ mentality What if you were accused of murder, and due to an inability to afford a proper attorney, suppressed evidenced, a mistaken or lying eyewitness, etc. You were put on death row. Would you still feel that ‘an innocent person being killed is a part of life’?

    ----NOTE: For some reason you mentioned rapist. I think it should be noted that the last time a rapist was executed was in 1964 in Missouri, and the last time a person was executed for a crime other than homicide was in 1962 for criminal assault.Source



    posted on Apr, 9 2007 @ 05:42 PM
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    Originally posted by ImpliedChaos
    By this statement you are inferring that, the death penalty deters killings.


    No, that statement had nothing to do with deterring killings. You said innocent people could be executed. I was saying if there was no death penalty there is a greater chance that the criminal could escape and kill again, or kill somebody in the prison then an innocent person being executed.


    it has been proven that the death penalty has nothing to do with the increase/decrease of crime rates.

    Then why did you post the links saying that the death penalty has to do with the crime rate going up and down in your first post?

    Even if the death penalty doesn’t deter some people from killing it still gives them what they deserve and keeps them from killing again. If they kill an innocent person they deserve to be executed.


    Instead of giving a criminal the death penalty, they should be given life without the possibility of parole


    But when you do that the criminal has nothing at all to lose. There is a good chance they will try and commit crimes against other inmates, or even at prison guards – which is leaving more innocent people at risk! Life in prison isn’t a good idea at all, especially when the criminals deserve to be executed.


    how many times has a person in serving life in a MAX prison escaped?


    I’m not sure, but there’s probably been a few. Criminals don’t have to escape to be a danger, though


    Most murders are crimes of passion. Meaning, there was an argument of some sort, things escalated and a person snapped. These people are highly unlikely to kill again


    So what? That makes it ok? They still deserve to be executed.


    Would you still feel that ‘an innocent person being killed is a part of life’?


    Yes, I am not an exception.


    For some reason you mentioned rapist. I think it should be noted that the last time a rapist was executed was in 1964 in Missouri


    I think all rapists should be executed.



    posted on Apr, 9 2007 @ 07:06 PM
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    Originally posted by enjoies05 I was saying if there was no death penalty there is a greater chance that the criminal could escape and kill again, or kill somebody in the prison then an innocent person being executed.

    Can you back this up with fact and or statistics? By the way this could happen while the person is waiting on death row.


    Originally posted by enjoies05 Then why did you post the links saying that the death penalty has to do with the crime rate going up and down in your first post?

    I mentioned it because if there was any sort of correlation at all it is an inverse one at best. Are you able to prove that the death penalty deters homicides? There has been no substantiating research to indicate this.

    Who are you to say what people "deserve" ? You keep saying that they DESERVE to be executed but you are not backing up your opinion with any sort of facts , statistics, researched evidence . And therefore in my opinion you have yet to prove support your argument.

    This brings me to another point. It is immoral to kill another human being under any circumstance.THOU SHALL NOT KILL. It is my opinion that we do not create life, God does. So we have no right to take it away under any circumstances. While these criminal are rotting in prison agonizing about what they have done, let God deal with them. They will be punished as he sees fit.


    Originally posted by enjoies05 But when you do that the criminal has nothing at all to lose. There is a good chance they will try and commit crimes against other inmates, or even at prison guards – which is leaving more innocent people at risk!”


    Prisoners on death row have nothing to lose also; actually they have less to lose than an inmate serving life. So the chances of a guard or another prisoner being attacked is actually worse on death row, because they know they are going to die soon, so they a few decide to go out with a bang. Like I’ve stated before if the prisoner is deemed by the warden to be dangerous inside the prison, put him/her in solitary confinement. In solitary confinement they cannot hurt anyone but themselves. So why is this not a viable option? Is because you want revenge? A eye for an eye? Well as a mentioned before the President’s Comission has said that the goal of the justice system is NOT revenge but to protect individuals. Can you please explain how life in prison without the possibility of parole or solitary confinement does not satisfy the goal of the criminal justice system?

    ----->BTW Good luck on your closing statement



    posted on Apr, 10 2007 @ 08:58 AM
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    Who are you to say what people "deserve" ? You keep saying that they DESERVE to be executed but you are not backing up your opinion with any sort of facts , statistics, researched evidence .


    Who am I to say? Well I am not anybody really. But I and 67% of the people who took a 2006 Gallup poll think murders deserve to be executed.


    This brings me to another point. It is immoral to kill another human being under any circumstance.THOU SHALL NOT KILL. It is my opinion that we do not create life, God does. So we have no right to take it away under any circumstances. While these criminal are rotting in prison agonizing about what they have done, let God deal with them. They will be punished as he sees fit.


    The Old Testament:

  • "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth…"
  • "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man."
  • "Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death."


    Why don’t you want murderers to be executed? Why should they be treated better then the innocent people they killed? What makes them better? Why would you want them to have a roof over there head, books and TV to entertain them, a chance to get an education and doctors to see when they broke into someone’s house and killed there kids while they were asleep?!

    They killed an innocent person; they don’t deserve anything except to be killed. They are scum and shouldn’t get anything, except the death penalty.

    And that concludes my end of the debate.



  • posted on Apr, 10 2007 @ 10:41 AM
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    Originally posted by enjoies05Who am I to say? Well I am not anybody really. But I and 67% of the people who took a 2006 Gallup poll think murders deserve to be executed.


    It should also be noted that in that same gallop poll conducted in May 2006, when the option of life w/o parole was offered support for the death penalty sharply decreased to 47% while 48% thought life imprisonment was more appropriate Gallup This proves that when given an alternative the American people don’t necessarily feel that murderers DESERVE the death penalty.

    Moving on to the “eye for an eye” quote, how about we finish this quote before we interpret it.

    You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth". But I say to you, do not set yourself in violent or revengeful resistance against an evildoer." –Jesus (Matthew 5:38)

    Here are some more quotes/situations taken from the Bible which prove that capital punishment is immoral.

    "As I live, says the Lord God, I swear I take no pleasure in the death of the wicket man, but rather in the wicked man's conversion, that he may life. Turn, turn from your evil ways!" (Ezekiel 33:11)

    Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God; for it is written, `Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." (Romans 12:19)


    This is the story of the woman who was found committing adultery. The Mosaic Code required that she and her lover be stoned to death. Unlike many other passages in the Gospel where Jesus is reported as having either negated or reinterpreted a law in the Mosaic Code, he simply asks that the first stone be cast by one who is without sin. Of course, none of the accusers was without sin; none could start the execution process.(John 8:1-11)



    Originally posted by enjoies05Why don’t you want murderers to be executed? Why should they be treated better then the innocent people they killed? What makes them better?


    Its not that I don’t think murderers deserve to die. But I believe this system is severely flawed. How can we in good conscious put to death innocent men and women every year, with no regard for their lives. To me that makes us just as bad as the ones who are really guilty of murder. Like I’ve stated before it should be up to God whether or not to take someone’s life. I in no way feel that they are better than the victims, but to put evil in our hearts makes us no better than them.



    Originally posted by enjoies05.... when they broke into someone’s house and killed there kids while they were asleep?!


    Why are generalizing those on death row? Not all of them are child killers. There are mitigating factors in each and every case. You don’t what brought these people to commit these crimes against there victims. By you categorizing them as such you are playing on people’s fears. And that my friend is wrong.

    Throughout this debate I have proven to you that the death penalty is flawed, does not deter crime, and is not the only alternative for punishing murderers. The only reasons you have given me in support of it is vengeance and revenge, which is not the purpose of the criminal justice system. This means that capital punishment should be abolished once and for all.
    Good Debate enjoies05; it was a pleasure



    posted on Apr, 10 2007 @ 02:01 PM
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    I hereby officially close this H2H debate between these two great members. We will have an anonymous staff member judge this and we will have the results in no time at all. Both of you deserve a huge round of applause as you have done us proud.

    I will close this thread for the time being, and reopen it once the results are announced.

    At that point, any other Fighters are free to comment on what they thought of this battle.

    Stay Tuned...



    posted on Apr, 11 2007 @ 12:08 PM
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    Ladies & Gentleman, Boys & Girls, it is my humble responsibility to announce the results of this H2H battle. Allow me to begin by congratulating both participants on a hard fought battle. The subject "The Death Penalty" was well represented by both sides, and as FSME for this forum, I feel you guys have done our forum proud. My hats off to both of you. I would love to have you as regulars in the H2H ring.

    Now enough with the gratuities... let's get down to it.

    Well... Who Won?



    Both members had a distinct approach and fought hard to get the upper hand. Deciding the winner really comes down to how we judge each member's approach. Looking at enjoies05, his approach was based on passion and opinion. He spoke from the heart and offered some some sincere opinions. Much of us may agree, others may not, that is the nature of the beast. When faced with facts, enjoies05 stuck to his guns and pushed forward. He did not fall back on his heels, he continued to push forward and did an admirable job doing so. Looking at the approach of ImpliedChaos, it did consist of an opinion, but it was heavily based on hard facts. Our judge thought long and hard on this one, having to reread the debate more than once. It really came down to who presented the stronger case, and worked harder to undermine the stance of his opponent.

    With that, it is my duty to announce that ImpliedChaos is the victor on this Head-2-Head Debate.

    Below are some thoughts and comments from the judge(s)...



    ImpliedChaos did a great job on making a strong stand while refuting his opponent's stance.




    enjoies05 made a strong case but came up short when it came to anything outside of his own opinion. The "so what" comment solidified my decision. Rather than attempting to refute what his opponent said, he responded with "so what".




    This was by no means necessary a lop sided victory, but I do believe that ImpliedChaos put up the better case.




    Both members made a strong stance with their material, but I felt there was much left unsaid on the subject. In the end, I need to look to who made the better case on facts, rather than opinion. I give ImpliedChaos the nod on this one.


    So there you have it. Congrats to both members on this hard fought debate and I hope to see both of you back in the future. The door is always open and the lights are always on in this ring. Again, I final congrats to both members on this battle.

    Very Impressed!

     


    This thread is now open to any "Fighter" who would wish to comment.



    posted on Apr, 11 2007 @ 12:51 PM
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    Congratulations on a great debate to the both of you.
    This is a subject which I am very passionate about, and I enjoyed reading your thoughts as well.

    Congratulations again to the both of you. You both should be very proud.



    posted on Apr, 11 2007 @ 01:30 PM
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    Nice job ImpliedChaos.



    Thanks for the compliments Chiss and Lombozo.



    posted on Apr, 11 2007 @ 01:38 PM
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    I want to applaude enjoies05.
    You put up a hard fight. A few times throughout the debate, I was left thinking 'well how i am going to refute that?' I would love to eventually to another debate with you, on whatever subject. This was my first debate, and i think i'll be doing some more


    ----> Thank-you chissler and lonozo for the nice comments



    posted on Apr, 12 2007 @ 07:04 AM
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    great job both of you, congrats on a great debate.

    i hope to put up even close to the job you both did on this in my own debate with whatukno.



    posted on Apr, 12 2007 @ 10:04 AM
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    Thanks for the kind words. I'll be up for more debates in the near future if anyone is interested. Hopefully learning from my mistakes this round



    posted on Apr, 15 2007 @ 10:34 AM
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    That was indeed a very interesting debate, congratulations, both of you! Both argued mostly on facts and well researched material - great job






    posted on Apr, 15 2007 @ 07:17 PM
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    OUTSTANDING Debate..

    I truly enjoyed reading all the information. I particularly liked the way the two opponents injected their own styles into the writing..


    Semper





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