God Thinks!?

I was watching the History channel's program about Sodom and Gomorra when one of the theologians mentioned something that I found really interesting. He said that the only time in the bible that mentions God "thinking" is when God was talking to Abraham about the fate of Sodom and Gomorra.

When Abraham found out that God was thinking about destroying the city, Abraham asked God, "Are you going to kill the good people when you kill the bad people? If there are even fifty good people in the city, will you leave it alone? It would not be right to kill both bad and good people."
God answered, "If I find even fifty good people in Sodom, then I will leave it alone for them."
"Well," said Abraham, "what if there are only forty-five good people? Will you destroy the city because there were not five more?"
"I will not destroy it if there are forty-five good people," God said.
"What if there are forty?"
"I will leave the city alone the city for forty people."
"Now don't get mad, but what if there are thirty?"
"I will not destroy it if there are thirty good people."
"As long as we are on the subject, what if there are twenty?"
"Then I will not destroy the city because of the twenty good people."
"Please don't be upset, but what if there are ten?"
"I will not destroy the city if there are ten good people."
Then God left.

www.alltruebible.com...

Even though i'm not a Christian I do find the religion interesting. How exactly though do you reconcile the fact that your omniscient god had to debate, with a human no less, the fate of an entire city?
This seriously puts to question the omniscience and the omni benevolence of the Christian god...unless of course, those omni qualities were attributed to God at a later time.

If the god that was speaking to Abraham was omniscient. He would not need to think since he would already know the fate of the city. He would also know how many "good" people were in the city without having to send angels.
If he was omnibenevolent, he would not destroy the city even for one innocent person. Yet he still agreed to destroy the city if less than 10 were found.

I understand that the bible is made up of parables but most Christians would agree that this story is to be taken literally. If so, how do you explain Gods ungodlike qualities?



[edit on 5-4-2007 by xEphon]

It just goes to show that the bible is nothing but made up stories designed to control the mass populace. Putting faith in a book that claims god as a "humanized" figure is clearly wrong. Totally ridiculous IMO. Dont get me wrong, the bible can help with morality issues. But christains take it way to far. This story only teaches people to fear god. Essentially it says fear god and be good or else die.

Again this is my opinion, but people should really try meditating more. With meditation you can personally connect to the divine in ways that no storybook could ever hope to replicate. The truth comes from within, not some book or some religous leader.

No I agree. I believe God comes in all forms and isn't exclusive to Christianity. It just seems like the more I learn about the god of religions, the more it seems like God isnt what many expect it to be. Its almost as if the being that some consider God is just an ideal. A figure that we want to attribute all these great qualities to, but in the end, may be just a few evolutions greater than human.

That would certainly explain all of the mood swings that the god of religion experiences.

"Thoughts of the mind, produce after thier kind."
Freud.

Indecisive deity?

That explains why my head hurts when I'm trying to understand religion

Its time to move past these religions or at least reform them. They really just dont mesh with modern society. All of the major religions were essentially created for illerate people that lived thousands of years ago. While they contain a lot of great ideologies and theories they lose credibility with stories like these. Jesus was a great prophet with an amazing message. He was defenitely a revolutionary. But saying that he died on the cross for all your sins just sounds like an excuse to sin to me. His message has been totally misconstrued over a period of 2000 years. Why are we still teaching that its ok to sin as long as we say a few comments about jesus before we go to bed? This is ludicrous and I dont see how anyone can honestly believe such nonsense.

Everything we need to lead good lives in God's presence already exists inside us. Everyone knows within their own hearts what is right and wrong. It blows my mind that people will still commit sins but then thinks its ok because they are christian.

[edit on 5-4-2007 by Vipassana]

Originally posted by Now_Then
Indecisive deity?

That explains why my head hurts when I'm trying to understand religion

Indecisive and vengeful. I'm not sure I like that combo.

God: "Hmmm do I kill all of them or some of them...
Screw it...they're all burnin. I'm bringing this mother down!
Oh and I dare you to watch me do it. No Seriously.
I'm itchin to see the first human salt statue."

Or something like that...

I think it was more like, God was intending to destroy the cities, and decided to have a chat with abraham about it first....since, well, abraham had kin in the city. and well, abraham was trying to talk him out of it....

didn't work too well, though did it, I mean the cities were destroyed?

Perhaps God debated with Abraham not because He was bored or feeling indecisive, but because He wanted Abraham to learn something. Maybe God wanted Abraham to learn about the value of human life, and the fact that God would always judge in order to preserve life.

Can't you guys think outside the box?

Originally posted by xEphon

Even though i'm not a Christian I do find the religion interesting. How exactly though do you reconcile the fact that your omniscient god had to debate, with a human no less, the fate of an entire city?
This seriously puts to question the omniscience and the omni benevolence of the Christian god...unless of course, those omni qualities were attributed to God at a later time.

I understand that the bible is made up of parables but most Christians would agree that this story is to be taken literally. If so, how do you explain Gods ungodlike qualities?

Well how then could God wrestle with Jacob? Sit on a throne? Allow Satan to plead his case?

It is because we can not simply put understand him unless given qualities we recognize. Then again we were created in HIS image.

god already knew the situation that existed in S&G

God allowed Abraham to air his views

the scripture in Job shows God allowing his angels to also air their own opinions on a certian matter

So what your saying then is that God only wants us to feel like we have a choice when our fate is already decided? Isnt that deceitful? So god gave Abraham the illusion of having a choice...knowing full well that he would still destroy the city and his wife would turn to salt. Or are you saying that god didnt know the outcome?

Well how then could God wrestle with Jacob? Sit on a throne? Allow Satan to plead his case?

I have no idea. Why did he? Would all all mighty being sit anywhere? If god was omniscient, then allowing Satan to plead his case was as pointless as Abraham pleading his. The matter was already decided.

It is because we can not simply put understand him unless given qualities we recognize. Then again we were created in HIS image.

If we were truly created in his image, then human qualities are also godlike qualities and it would be logical to assume that god (of religions) isnt truly perfect. That would mean he failed with humans since we are not perfect. Lets assume for a second though that perfect doesnt exist. That its a unatainable concept by human definition. Wouldn't that explain the many inconsistencies found in the bible? Wouldn't that explain how a "perfect" god could create an "imperfect" race?

Maybe God wanted Abraham to learn about the value of human life, and the fact that God would always judge in order to preserve life.

Can't you guys think outside the box?

The value of human life!? Judging by this display human life is meaningless and expendable. What about the children in the city? Did they deserve to die because of their parents? Or was this for them some sick lesson to be learned by the sins of their fathers?

Cant you think outside the box?

Again its stories like these where I have to question the awsomeness of a omni god. I know I know. I'm sure the answer to all of this is "who are we to understand the logic of god." A simple rationalization to sidestep any serious debate. Thats not a box thats a prison.





[edit on 7-4-2007 by xEphon]

I was watching the History channel's program about Sodom and Gomorra when one of the theologians mentioned something that I found really interesting. He said that the only time in the bible that mentions God "thinking" is when God was talking to Abraham about the fate of Sodom and Gomorra.

I really wish you would pick up a bible ad read the text for yourself. The sight you qouted was a paraphrase, not a literal translation. In a REAL translation the word "thinking" is not used. You didn't even qoute your source accurately.

When Abraham found out that God was thinking about destroying the city

The link you provided dosen't use the word "destroying" it says "smooshing".

18since Abraham will surely become a great and mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed?

19"For I have chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him."

20And the LORD said, "The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave.

21"I will go down now, and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know."

22Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the LORD.

23Abraham came near and said, "Will You indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked?

24"Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city; will You indeed sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous who are in it?

25"Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?"

26So the LORD said, "If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare the whole place on their account."

27And Abraham replied, "Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord, although I am but dust and ashes.

28"Suppose the fifty righteous are lacking five, will You destroy the whole city because of five?" And He said, "I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there."

29He spoke to Him yet again and said, "Suppose forty are found there?" And He said, "I will not do it on account of the forty."

30Then he said, "Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak; suppose thirty are found there?" And He said, "I will not do it if I find thirty there."

31And he said, "Now behold, I have ventured to speak to the Lord; suppose twenty are found there?" And He said, "I will not destroy it on account of the twenty."

32Then he said, "Oh may the Lord not be angry, and I shall speak only this once; suppose ten are found there?" And He said, "I will not destroy it on account of the ten."

33As soon as He had finished speaking to Abraham the LORD departed, and Abraham returned to his place.

Look here for a REAL translation of the text.

If you want to quote the bible you should read the text yourself instead of quoting some one elses story telling to a young child. It would save a lot of confusion.

Originally posted by xEphon
So what your saying then is that God only wants us to feel like we have a choice when our fate is already decided? Isnt that deceitful?

No, that's not deceitful because Perception IS Reality.

Well how then could God wrestle with Jacob? Sit on a throne? Allow Satan to plead his case?

God did not wrestle Jacob. Jacob wrestled with an unknown angel who refused to give his name.

If we were truly created in his image, then human qualities are also godlike qualities and it would be logical to assume that god (of religions) isnt truly perfect. That would mean he failed with humans since we are not perfect.

We are made in his image because we feel emotion, have a standard of morals, and are psychologically aware of ourselves. Just because humans are not perfect does not mean we are failures. Do you consider yourself a failure? Besides, if humans were perfect in every way, there would be no hopes, no dreams, no aspirations. Life would become meaningless and there would be nothing to look forward to because we already have everything we need.

The value of human life!? Judging by this display human life is meaningless and expendable.

Actually, human life was meaningless and expendable to the Sodomites and people of Gomorrah. When the angels stayed with Abraham, the people of Sodom rallied outside of his house and demanded they bring the angels out so that they could rape them.

What about the children in the city? Did they deserve to die because of their parents? Or was this for them some sick lesson to be learned by the sins of their fathers?

Children are innocent and pure in the eyes of God. They would have gone to heaven.

Yeah, I can explain all of God's so-called "ungodlike" qualities. Any theory of God that he is all-whatever is completely bunk. There. I said it. A lot of people can't understand poetic hyperbole, so they think when a prophet says God is "all knowing", he must literally mean it. But this is only supposed to mean that God's wisdom is far above man's.

Ubercanist, maybe God is not omniscient, maybe he's not omnipotent, and maybe he's not omnipresent. I don't think anybody can know until they meet God, so it would be foolish to assume whether or not He is.

De. Seus

lol well excuse me for using a paraphrased source. First of all your arguing, like so many, semantics. Not all sources may say he literally "was thinking." I got that from the H channel which is why I posted this. REGARDLESS, im sure you can agree that god was contemplating the idea of destroying the city. Which implies thought. I didn't know there was a debate within Christianity over this subject since it's a pretty clear example.

Seriously

What bout the other questions that I posed? Or are you more concerned about petty nitpicking over the source I used.

[edit on 8-4-2007 by xEphon]

Is it possible, as in many parts of the bible, that the LORD which he spoke to was not THE God? The divine in many parts of the bible tends to work through mediators or servants of divine will. Angels, emissaries from heaven...

in a lot of cases it is particular Angels who represent the LORD who are speaking with Mortals....

First of all your arguing, like so many, semantics. Not all sources may say he literally "was thinking."

The whole basis for your aguement depends on what you say was in the bible. Please show me one bible translation that uses the word "thinking" in that passage. You didn't even address the fact that you misquoted the soure you provided as your proof.

God didn't contemplate destroying the city. He had all ready made a decision. Abraham was pleading for the good inhabitants that might have beent still present in the city.

You miss the whole point because you use a paraphrase version for children.

the only time in the bible that mentions God "thinking" is when God was talking to Abraham about the fate of Sodom and Gomorra.

These are your words not mine. Please show me in the bible where the word "thinking" was used in this passage. You brought semantics into the post when you quoted the word thinking. The bible does not mention God "thinking" when God is talking to Abraham in the passage. Your statement was completely false. You misquoted your source and based on those two problems your arguement has no merit.

If you would like to discuss whether God "thinks" about His choices is fine by me, but atleast have the dignity to do it in an honest fashion instead of trying to misrepresent what is written in the bible.

The whole basis for your aguement depends on what you say was in the bible. Please show me one bible translation that uses the word "thinking" in that passage. You didn't even address the fact that you misquoted the soure you provided as your proof.

If you actually read my post you would see that this whole "thinking" business only sparked my later questions. I can care less if it actually used the terminology "thinking" in the text. I just provided a source that shows that god was actually contemplating destroying the city...from a christian to christians. If you guys want to have a debate over wording that then thats your issue.

For someone who knows so much about the bible I dont see how you are failing to grasp this simple concept. The fact that he was even having a discussion about how many people to kill with Abraham makes it an open concept. But if you want to be anal about terminology at least try answering my real questions about the discussion between god and Abraham.

God didn't contemplate destroying the city. He had all ready made a decision. Abraham was pleading for the good inhabitants that might have beent still present in the city.

Ok fine. I wont disagree there. But that means we're all able to barter with god.

Why would an omniscient god need to barter with a human over innocent human lives? Wouldn't he know the best course of action? If he already had his mind made up, then the whole discussion was a charade since everyones fate was already decided. Does god deal with smoke and mirrors now?

What about the aspect of omnibenevolence. How is god omnibenevolent yet willing to kill innocent people, since god said he would destroy the city if there were less than 10... so even 9 "good" people wouldn't save the city. Why destroy the city at all? If we are all sinners, why didn't these people get a full life in order to change their ways? Or did you have to be perfect in order for god not to kill you in those days?





[edit on 9-4-2007 by xEphon]