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While many Bible have footnotes saying the number translated from the original Greek could be 616, experts say new photographic evidence of an ancient fragment of papyrus from Revelation indeed indicates the number is indeed 616, instead of 666.
wde h sofia estin: o ecwn noun yhfisatw ton ariqmon tou qhriou, ariqmoV gar anqrwpou estin: kai o ariqmoV autou exakosioi exhkonta ex.
Originally posted by billybob
yes.
new is always better.
the fact that 616 is a BORING number, and 666 is as fascinating as all get out(mathematically speaking) should have NO BEARING.
In the King James Version of the Bible, the well-known verse of Revelation 13:18 reads: "Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."
While many Bible have footnotes saying the number translated from the original Greek could be 616, experts say new photographic evidence of an ancient fragment of papyrus from Revelation indeed indicates the number is indeed 616, instead of 666.
Originally posted by billybob
the fact that 616 is a BORING number, and 666 is as fascinating as all get out(mathematically speaking) should have NO BEARING.
To be sure, his perspective was theologically motivated (he gave the interpretation of 666 as striving for perfection [represented by the number 7] but never able to achieve it). But the fact that he was writing in the second century tells us that BOTH numbers existed at that time.
Actually, the verdict is not in on this one yet. I am inclined to the view that the original wording here was 616, but a lot of work is needed to determine this. Although this is the earliest fragment for this portion of Revelation, the fragment’s textual affinities and general reliability still need to be examined fully.
Originally posted by shearder
I would suggest reading the external link. The ORIGINAL, on which the bible was (re)written, the translation indicated that it COULD, that means a possibility, have been 616. Now new evidence indicates it IS 616. That means it is correctly translated to 616 NOW and the 666 originally translated from the ORIGINAL text (as seen in the pic on the external page was infact wrong.
but again, go and have a read here: www.worldnetdaily.com...
[edit on 5/4/2007 by shearder]
Comments by Robert Sungenis:
Although it is true that a “616” textual variant for Apocalypse 13:18 exists, this has been known for quite some time. In fact, it has been known by modern exegetes for at least two hundred years, since the art of textual criticism came into vogue. The truth is, the evidence for 616 is negligible, even with the additional papyri evidence touted by David Parker and Ellen Aitken.
The number 666 also has papyri evidence to back up its superiority. It comes from the famous Chester Beatty collection, Papyrus 47, which dates from the second century A.D. Its papyri pedigree is thus older than 616, since 616's evidence originates from the third or fourth century papyri, also known as Oxyrhynchus Papyri, specifically, Papyrus 115 for the Apocalypse. As such, Papyrus 115 does not add much to the issue, except to confirm the existence of 616 as a variant text. Irenaeus, who died just a few years after the second century, rejected 616 as a scribal error (See Against Heresies 5, 30, 1).
The Greek reading for 666, “exakosioi exekonta ex” (600 + 60 + 6), not only has the oldest pedigree but also has the most prominent and numerous textual evidences and witnesses. Papyrus 47, Codices Sinaiticus and Alexandrinus (fourth-fifth century), as well as P, 046, 051, 1, 94, 1006 (and 13 other minuscules); with witness such as Irenaeus, Hippolytus, Origen, Victorinus-Pettau, Gregory-Elvira, Primasius, Andrew and Arethas, all follow the reading “666.”
Only Codex C (fifth century) and one unknown manuscript from Irenaeus and Tyconius have “616,” as translated from the Greek “exakosioi deka ex” (600 + 10 + 6). Hence, 616 has hardly any convincing evidence to its reliability.
Originally posted by ben91069
The number 666 also has papyri evidence to back up its superiority. It comes from the famous Chester Beatty collection, Papyrus 47, which dates from the second century A.D. Its papyri pedigree is thus older than 616, since 616's evidence originates from the third or fourth century papyri, also known as Oxyrhynchus Papyri, specifically, Papyrus 115 for the Apocalypse. As such, Papyrus 115 does not add much to the issue, except to confirm the existence of 616 as a variant text. Irenaeus, who died just a few years after the second century, rejected 616 as a scribal error (See Against Heresies 5, 30, 1).
Originally posted by enjoies05
666 makes a better song than 616.
"Six...one six...the number of the beast.."
Doesn't work.
Originally posted by detonator
You forgot something else -- when a lot of people believe into something, it's as good as true. But besides that 666 is correct 'evil' number. Actually it represents something else not just evil. Many 666-events in history actually helped humanity.
Originally posted by shearder
Another thing that intrigues me is that the anti-christ is actually not as significant as he, or his followers, may believe. I mean, in terms of how many times he is even mentioned in the bible would make one (me especially) wonder if he is even worth following (if one would be tempted). Ok - so his coming has been sensationalized by those who would follow him and darkness has been "prayed" to for hundreds if not thousands of years yet in the big scheme of things he is just a simple "speed bump" in what God has planned for us - insignificance as mentioned ONLY 4 times in the bible - I John 2:18, I John 2:22, I John 4:3 and II John 7. All by John too.
Ah well, I guess we shouldn't pay him as much attention as he has been getting all this time
When the name "Nero Caesar" is spelled with Hebrew letters as נרון קסר (NRON QSR—Hebrew vowels are not letters), each letter has a corresponding numerical value, N=50, R=200, O=6 N=50, Q=100, S=60, R=200, resulting in the sum of 666.
Some Greek manuscripts of Revelation have a different number. Here the number is not 666, but 616. If Nero is alternatively spelled as NRO instead of NRON, one gets 616; NRO minus N(=50).