UFO: Antigravity or Coandă Effect man made saucers or aircrafts?, page 5

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reply posted on 9-5-2007 @ 10:29 PM by Matyas

Well, back to the subject matter.

Lately I have hardened my position on propulsion systems, and the most recent theory is taking form.

No Zorgon, we are still way off from a six seater, but we are closer to a table top model than ever before.

I am thinking along the lines of a frequency multiplier with harmonic feedback. Truly a weird animal if I may say so myself, but what if...

reply posted on 9-5-2007 @ 10:52 PM by TeslaandLyne

It might be the rigid air effect proposed by Tesla in 1892 such that it is
from an electric field but a very fast alternating field.

This would mean electrical agitation of air or water, not rigid things,
will make them rigid. Thus easy to fly through.

Its supposed in a mass, say that is made out of a super nova, is so tightly
bound and the speed of electrons are enormous.

Wherever you go in air or water, you are on a solid platform.
Just better increase the power Scotty.

reply posted on 9-5-2007 @ 11:00 PM by zorgon

Well I sure hope it was an Asteroid but I am finding to much stuff on this...

Air Force Had Plans to Nuke Moon

The U.S. Air Force developed a top-secret Cold War plan to detonate a nuclear bomb on the moon in the 1950s...

Part of the team researching the hypothetical explosion was a young Carl Sagan, who was recruited to study how the mushroom cloud would expand and collapse under the moons lighter gravity. Sagan proposed that a legitimate scientific purpose for the explosion could have been examining the cloud for possible organic material...

Striking the moon with one of the then-available Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles (ICBMs) was entirely feasible, Reiffel wrote, to an accuracy within a couple of miles (kilometers)...

SPACE.Com

Here is one describing what a blast would look like on the Moon...IF someone just happened to be looking...

One interesting aspect of an atomic blast on the Moon would be that the classic 'mushroom cloud' wouldn't form. This cloud is basically a convection phenomenon, formed when the atmosphere of the Earth is locally heated into an incandescent ball of gas, which has low density and rises, while the air surrounding this fireball is also heated and rises into a column, dragging dust up into the air surrounding the fireball (this dust becomes irradiated and is converted into radioactive 'fallout' dust, much of which would be carried away into the upper atmosphere and transported various distances).

None of this would happen on the Moon; there would be a bright flash, and a crater would form, depending on the height if the explosion; a 'splash' of dust and evaporated rock would be expelled outwards from the crater region, and the mass of the bomb itself would be converted into a very hot (but rapidly dissipating) plasma which would expand in a rough sphere in all directions above the crater and its splash. Yes, the splash of dust and pulverised rock would become irradiated, but this fallout dust would fall rapidly back to the Moon in a starlike pattern of ejecta, and very little would be carried away by the Moon's very thin atmosphere.

That atmosphere would suddenly become somewhat thicker around any such detonation for a short period, because of vaporised material from the Moon's crust and the bomb itself - but would still be a pretty high grade vacuum. You might get an aurora on the Moon for a brief period.

SOURCE

This site list info on Project A119 and the Russian E-4 Project....won't always allow direct link... see "Space Nukes" at the bottom of the page..

utenti.lycos.it...

Its interesting that they use this image for the article...

There is a pdf file available there that is from the Air Force Special Weapons Center...

"This volume is now available in PDF version by clicking on the cover at left. (NOTE: the second volume is apparently unavailable either from Kirtland AFB and the Illinois Institute of Technology)"

Seems the second volume has the goodies...

reply posted on 9-5-2007 @ 11:05 PM by uberarcanist

Come on guys, if flying saucers are manmade, what the hell is man using them for? I posit no nation or individual has gotten the sort of benefits that they would if they were using flying saucers, even in secret.

reply posted on 10-5-2007 @ 02:54 AM by zorgon

Originally posted by Matyas
No Zorgon, we are still way off from a six seater, but we are closer to a table top model than ever before.

So should I start the fundraising yet? I have been meaning to give Bigelow a call

Originally posted by uberarcanist
Come on guys, if flying saucers are manmade, what the hell is man using them for?

Mining operations on the Moon and Mars, haven't you been paying attention?

And get familiar with ISRU... Benefiting us on Earth is not on their program

But don't forget that the silicon chip in your computer is reverse engineered from that Roswell crash. I would call that a benefit

[edit on 10-5-2007 by zorgon]

reply posted on 10-5-2007 @ 03:18 AM by funky monk

Originally posted by uberarcanist
Come on guys, if flying saucers are manmade, what the hell is man using them for? I posit no nation or individual has gotten the sort of benefits that they would if they were using flying saucers, even in secret.

And what makes you say that? If I were leading a government with access to this tech I would have huge benefits: Flying to other planets (just have to make the craft big enough, think of the resurch possabilities of that), if I were fighting another country they would be very useful as weapons. If you could cloak they craft they would be extreemly useful for recon.

-fm

reply posted on 10-5-2007 @ 08:06 AM by Matyas

TeslaandLyne:

You are starting to get my attention. So many times the pretenders try to fool us. Eventually the persistent catch on.

Can you concur with me on these points?

ZPE has nothing to do with it.

Scalar is just a fancy term for phase conjugation.

"Orthorotation" is also misleading. One does not say that the magnetic field of a moving charge is an "orthorotated" field. All magnetic fields are purpendicular to charge fields.

Resonance is the power reserve.

I think vibrating an atom at the Bohr Radius will reveal its inherit wave structure and render it suseptable to modification. Power tends to drop off with the higher harmonics most likely due to the energy levels needed for frequencies that high. Last I calculated it I was sitting in the ballpark of 3000 THz. The Bohr Radius for hydrogen rises sharply into the gamma region.

Well, think about this and we'll talk later.

reply posted on 10-5-2007 @ 01:43 PM by zorgon

I posted this in response to a question regarding secret Apollo missions in the Moon Thread, but I think its relevant in here as well...

Originally posted by pippadee
Just curious. Where would one launch a 360' fire cracker weighing 3000 tons other than Cape Canaveral ? This is a monster of a rocket. I suppose the Soviets may have had the facilities and been able to keep it suppressed from prying eyes.

Antarctica comes to mind... but thats where the anti gravity ships are leaving from

How about this spot?

The Space Test Program (STP) is a part the Air Force Space and Missile Systems Center, Space and Missile Test and Evaluation Directorate located at Kirtland AFB in Albuquerque, New Mexico. The DoD Space Test Program was created in May 1965 as a multi-user space program whose role is to be the primary provider of spaceflight for the entire Department of Defensespace research community (this role was revalidated in a Nov 1995 memo from the Secretary of Defense). The Air Force is the executive agent for this DoD program. The primary objective of STP is to fly the maximum number of DoD space research experiments possible consistent with priority, opportunity and available funding. From the first launch in Jun 1967 to Jun 1997 over 400 experiments have been flown on over 120 missions using dedicated free-flyers, the space shuttle or piggyback payload opportunities.

SOURCE

ummm whats a "free-flyer"?

Read all about the Space Command here... they are bigger than you think

www.landoflegends.us...
www.landoflegends.us...

Someone also mentioned living near Vandenberg and they never saw any big rockets like the Saturn 5... funny about living close to something... I live near Nellis AFB and weird stuff flies out of there all the time... but after awhile you don't even pay attention anymore...

Have a look at this...

Astronomy Picture of the Day
2005 October 27

The Last Titan
Credit : Courtesy 30th Space Wing, Vandenberg Air Force Base

Explanation: On October 19th,(2005), a rocket blasted off from Vandengberg Air Force Base - the last Titan rocket. Carrying a payload for the US National Reconnaissance Office, the successful Titan IV B launch brings to a close the Titan program whose first launch was in 1959. Originally designed as an intercontinental ballistic missle, the Titan rocket ultimately evolved into a heavy lift workhorse, launching defense, commercial, and scientific payloads to Earth orbit and beyond. In fact, many historic space explorations began with Titan launches, including manned Gemini missions, the Viking missions to Mars, the Voyager tours of the outer solar system, and the Cassini spacecraft now orbiting Saturn. Cassini's probe Huygens accomplished the most distant landing on another world, while Voyager 1 is now humanity's most distant spacecraft.

SOURCE

Now have a look at this sketch... Saturn V series...

Have a look at #1 on the right... the Apollo rocket... and then look at #6 and compare it to the last Titan launch above...

Go ahead convince me I am crazy

[edit on 10-5-2007 by zorgon]

reply posted on 10-5-2007 @ 08:11 PM by ZEV93

The question remains : if the US Gov. or the Military Ind. Complex is in the possesion of Antigravity Technology why do they still invest Millions and Millions in obsolete, old and dangerous Technology like the Space Shuttle with it`s ancient Booster Engines ? Even the TOP of Technology Fighters like the F-22 are still based on jet Engines. It just doesn`t make sense to me.
However, if it's right what some of the Disclosure Project Guys say, even the Head of CIA and the President himself dont't know what's going on in these Black Projects. Which leads to another Topic ? Who is in charge ? Not the Congress. Some Shadow Government of the Mil.Ind. COmplex ?
Then the whole USA are nothing more than a FAKE.

reply posted on 10-5-2007 @ 08:17 PM by junglelord

Well if its true the claims made by Boyd Bushman...and if they are 50 to 80 years ahead of the technology we are allowed to see...then I have no doubt that they are doing miracles as he states

I believe Mother Nature does not speak English.
Mother Nature tells us what must be honored, and has been talking to us on many domains, and we have dataset's we're still trying to understand.
I cannot talk to all the theoretician's because there are no theories were I am.
What we have is wonderful, and it comes from miracles occurring, but that what we see will not be that what we have.
I tell my team, don't talk to me about things, you know, they have all that in production. Talk to me about things that we can only think of in dreams.
We are alone in our walk but it is fullfilling.
To listen where languages are not taught and verbalization is not used.
But we have to learn its language
The evidence of the separation of the galaxies is evidence of dark energy and antigravity.
Two equal weights. One made up of two North Pole magnets that oppose each other. Iron filing tests show that this showers out a magnetic plane. We wanted to see how this magnetic plane intersected with gravity. When dropped from a height, the duel North Pole magnet will land last.
They have refined, a device that as it charges will lift, because it is losing weight.

youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...

reply posted on 10-5-2007 @ 08:48 PM by Matyas

Originally posted by junglelord...Well if its true the claims made by Boyd Bushman...and if they are 50 to 80 years ahead of the technology we are allowed to see...

Said advances in technology can be pretty relative. An example of military science being ahead of its time can be taken from history as in this case:

According to analysis, the surface of the sword contains 0.6 to 2% chromium, with a thickness of 10 micron, which acted as a protective coating against corrosion during the long burial. The modern chrome-plating technology appeared in western countries in 1920s to 1930s, but it had emerged in China 2,200 years before.

source

Some say it is 20 years ahead. Others 80 to 100. Still others claim a thousand or more. As we can see it can be done...

reply posted on 10-5-2007 @ 10:47 PM by junglelord

I wonder what Miracles they are performing?

What language does mother nature speak?

I think math, sacred geometry, multiple dimensions, where gravity and EM fields can and do resonate and couple at the correct freq, these are those languages...

what do you think mother natures language is?

reply posted on 11-5-2007 @ 12:04 AM by TeslaandLyne

What I said:

It might be the rigid air effect proposed by Tesla in 1892 such that it is
from an electric field but a very fast alternating field.

This would mean electrical agitation of air or water, not rigid things,
will make them rigid. Thus easy to fly through.

Its supposed in a mass, say that is made out of a super nova, is so tightly
bound and the speed of electrons are enormous.

Wherever you go in air or water, you are on a solid platform.

What you said:

Can you concur with me on these points?

ZPE has nothing to do with it.

Scalar is just a fancy term for phase conjugation.

"Orthorotation" is also misleading. One does not say that the magnetic field of a moving charge is an "orthorotated" field. All magnetic fields are purpendicular to charge fields.

Resonance is the power reserve.

I think vibrating an atom at the Bohr Radius will reveal its inherit wave structure and render it suseptable to modification. Power tends to drop off with the higher harmonics most likely due to the energy levels needed for frequencies that high. Last I calculated it I was sitting in the ballpark of 3000 THz. The Bohr Radius for hydrogen rises sharply into the gamma region.

Does transforming a gas (i.e. air) by an alternating magnetic field (this
generates an electric field) into an electrically supportive platform in
the realm of zero point energy. Its pretty close.

ZPE or ZPR I see in isotopes and perhaps the unknown Helium engines
where electron capture or emission is involved.

See Tesla's aether light bulb experiments. Something is moving around
in there and it is perhaps the same in UFO light shows.

The mag field is circular around the constant current or electric field in
a wire and thus perpendicular. A radial alternating mag field will generate
a circular alternating electric field. If fast and strong enough, will it affect
the aether to form a suspension of electrical forces.

I just research these suspicions.

I see these Tesla coil enthusiast on youtube with lightning springing out
like roots of a tree. What if they measured the force on the aether like
one can measure current in a wire against a magnetic field.

Well thats my spin on the situation, at least I have an approach I think I
understand and way to see if it might work. Not that I would come close
to any of those coils.

Where are these magnetic and electric fields and what do they affect ?
The aether? A spark gap might determine the strength of the aether.
A coil will cause a spark when switched off from circuit, from energy
stored in the aether and will break the aether to discharge the stored
energy.

reply posted on 11-5-2007 @ 07:33 AM by Matyas

Thank you TeslaandLyne for your response.

I had overlooked that possibility of the rigid air concept. I never studied that in Tesla's work. It does make sense though.

In the other extreme case, solids can appear fluid if time is slowed enough, such as glass flowing into a pool.

I am familiar with the Aether theory, yet I have to see its existence proven. However it makes sense on many levels. So am I correct in understanding that there could be a postulate for propulsion using rigid Aether for space travel?

Indeed ZPE may exist, but here in the Tesla tech I do not see any immediate application of it. The Lorentz force, OTOH, plays a huge role.

I think ZPE, OU, FE, scalar tech, and all the other popular buzzwords for these kind of concepts are a distraction discouraging a clear understanding of Tesla's science. I believe the reality is very simple, but because of the way our brains are wired, it is not apparent to us, and we keep trying to add on irrelevant concepts making it more complicated than it really is.

I maintain that by vibrating atoms (with variations at their own frequency) the wave part nature of their duality manifests. Mass can disappear, and a slight push (against the Aether for example) will send an altered mass into relativistic velocity almost instantly. The power requirements for this kind of device can be minimalized by the use of resonance.

reply posted on 12-5-2007 @ 12:34 AM by zorgon

New info in the John Lear moon thread that is relevant to this thread

I didn't want to repost it all here..

www.abovetopsecret.com...

3 posts

reply posted on 12-5-2007 @ 11:09 PM by Matyas

Originally posted by zorgon
New info in the John Lear moon thread that is relevant to this thread

Very good posts! I especially appreciated how you avoided mixing popular culture into the scenario like antigravity and alien technology and showed how it could be done through conventional means.

Such an approach strengthens your argument and makes it far more believable. It also keeps it simple. That's what we need right now, just the straight forwards and simple.

reply posted on 13-5-2007 @ 12:19 AM by TeslaandLyne

Originally posted by uberarcanist
Come on guys, if flying saucers are manmade, what the hell is man using them for? I posit no nation or individual has gotten the sort of benefits that they would if they were using flying saucers, even in secret.

A puzzle isn't it.
This may be the crux of the matter.

Man has them. They are used in secret. What is the benefit.

Well they might replace the airliner.
Lets say its too dangerous and unreliable.

Agree. I say no. The benefit is to keep the status quo in oil and airplane
industry. Kerosene was the first money maker for Rockefeller until Tesla
and Edison but the automobile and airline came along.

Do not think oil is in to rocketry but some how kept the UFO under cover.
Perhaps paying to keep the UFO secret.

One more thing besides the novel propulsion, the engine can be any
type but the original might have used Helium in a recycled exhaust.
Also, the pitting from high voltage might deteriorate operations and be
a waste of metals of the outer shell.

Let Their Freak Flag Fly

reply posted on 13-5-2007 @ 03:21 PM by Matyas

Originally posted by TeslaandLyneA puzzle isn't it.

Not really when you think about it.

A pilot that gets put off could easily take his craft to say, a 100 mi. altitude, and do an EMP over any continental land mass the size of the United States.

Every electronic system that is not hardened would be fried. Just think of the destruction.

No, there is a damn good reason you don't see them flying around as much as we should.

reply posted on 14-5-2007 @ 12:45 PM by brotherthebig

Nuclear on the Moon, Man Made UFOs and Waste of Money

[post #1/2]

Hi,

First, thank you all for your contributions and for sharing, lost of new good information and sources to research, I will not go to all of them but for the moment I will try to complement the nuclear, man made UFOs and waste of money issues, for all the others I will come back.

This firsts part, “Nuclear on the Moon” is divided in two posts because of the limit, the others 2 parts “Man Made UFOs and Waste of Money” will be posted soon.

A - Nuclear on the Moon

Fiction: Space 1999 – just to illustrate

Zorgon has already post much information on the A119 Moon nuke project, so I will try not to duplicate. I think mbkennel is accurate and I will try to show why.

The Russians had an equivalent A119 Project (pdf) the E-4 Project. Carls Sagan worked on the A119 Project. USSR also foreseen to nuke Venus (Google translation).

source

First steps in Rocket and Space Technology:
. www.inesap.org... (including “The Military Race in Space”)
. www.vectorsite.net... (Shooting The Moon)
. history.nasa.gov... (see [firsts] OBJECTIVES IN SPACE, reference to Red Socks)
. P roject Red Socks (Army) and Project Baker (Air Force) (pdf)
. sse.jpl.nasa.gov... , extracts:
a. “Project RED SOCKS received no support in Washington. In December 1957, JPL and the Army Ballistic Missile Agency (ABMA) were instead asked to orbit an Earth satellite. Explorer 1 was launched 81 days later, on January 29, 1958” (sic)
b. “Project Red Socks A modified RED SOCKS plan was carried out in the Pioneer 4 project in March 1959” (sic)
. permanent.access.gpo.gov... (50 years of Air Force Space and Missiles)
. www.vectorsite.net... (a good general overview including the Soviet Moon manned program)

Lunar Missions time table:
. www.tsgc.utexas.edu... (Lunar Missions)
. www.russianspaceweb.com... (Moon Race)
. www.daviddarling.info... (USSR with mass/weight)
. www.nytimes.com... (1957/58)
. www.svengrahn.pp.se... (USSR E-4)

General rockets overview

Titan IV had a LEO payload of 47,800 pounds or LEO Polar of 38,800 pounds and Saturn IB of 36,000 pounds, the launch costs for the Saturn I-B are about the double those of the Titan III-M. More here.

And the guy that had the habit of wearing red socks was Joseph Shea.

More resources for First steps in Rocket and Space Technology:
. www.abovetopsecret.com...
. www.nytimes.com... (November 5, 1957)
. www.guardian.co.uk...
. utenti.lycos.it... (by Zorgon)
. en.wikipedia.org...
. www.wsmr-history.org...
. en.wikipedia.org...
. en.wikipedia.org...
. oblogdanalga.blogspot.com... (English article in Portuguese blog)
. en.wikipedia.org...
. www.geocities.com...

A more detailed history of the German’s WWII Rockets development could be found on the book Mares Nest (free e-book) by David Irving.

In 1953 the Moon rocked was far way, but by other means the nuclear bombs were alive and kicking.

… next [post #2/2] …

reply posted on 14-5-2007 @ 12:51 PM by brotherthebig

[post #2/2]

… previous [post #1/2] …

The USA were very concerned with Nazi Nuclear research, so before the end of WWII they started Operation Alsos to find nuclear information and recruit German scientists, mainly for the Manhattan Project. The first nuclear test was Project Trinity in July 1945, some days before the first nuclear attack in Hiroshima. The firsts Space (high altitude) nuclear test was Hardtack I in 1958.

We should also take in account Nuclear Power Sources in Space, because Space Nuclear Accidents they do happen.

USA Space Nuclear Power Source

USA Earth Nuclear timeline (and documentation)
. www.dtra.mil...
. en.wikipedia.org... (including other nations)

USA and USSR Space Nuclear timeline
. www.johnstonsarchive.net...
. en.wikipedia.org...

UAS and USSR Space Nuclear Power Source timeline
. www.space4peace.org...

A more detailed history of the German’s WWII Atomic research could be found on the book Virus House (free e-book) by David Irving.

Ivy (1952)

USA Operation Ivy (1953, part 3 of 3, others available in YouTube)

YouTube Link

Operation Hardtack I (Orange, 1958)

YouTube Link

Operation Argus (1958)

YouTube Link

USSR Tsar Bomba (largest Nuclear device ever tested, 50MT, 1961)

YouTube Link

Simply, massive destruction…

More resources for the Nuclear:
. en.wikipedia.org...
. www.aip.org...
. greyfalcon.us...
. physicsweb.org...
. www.taivaansusi.net...
. axxon.com.ar...
. www.belmont.k12.ca.us...
. www.space4peace.org...
. en.wikipedia.org...
. nuclearweaponarchive.org...
. en.wikipedia.org...
. nuclearweaponarchive.org...
. www.atomicarchive.com...
. www.fas.org... (USA Nuclear dates)
. www.fas.org... (list of declassified nuclear reports)
. fas.org... (Space Warfare)
. www.fas.org... (detailed list of USA nuclear tests 1945-1992)
. www.nv.doe.gov... (USA Nuclear Tests videos)

So we have:
. firsts Spacecraft hitting the Moon – USSR, Luna 2, Sept 1959 (USSR, Luna 1, Jan 1959 only flyby)
. first Space (high altitude) Nuke - USA, Hardtack I-Yucca, Apr 1958
. highest Space Nuke - USA, Argus III, Sep 1958 (540 km)

The nuclear was ready approximately 10 years before the space Moon rocket, something strange based on the V2 development and around 4000 had been produced.

The firsts rockets, nuclear bombs and space nuclear tests, shown us that in any date prior to 1957 simply the technology do send a rocket to the moon do not existed and albeit nuclear existed the space nuclear tests only began in 1958. Is now clear that the capacity to send a nuclear warhead to the Moon was not available in 1953.

But this leaves two open questions, what really appended in 1953? Was natural or provoked by technology?

brotherthebig.

[next (soon): “Man Made UFOs and Waste of Money”]