Wow, sounds like a tense situation!

Take care of yourself and be safe. We'll be thinking of you.

I'm actually planning on reporting as much as I can about this on here. The media seems to barely scratch the surface of the situation. Why? They have to be careful about what they say, VERY careful. I'm gonna pay a visit to maidan today and see how things are going. So far I can only say one thing, those protestors that you see on the news that are protraited as patriots of the ukrain (I mean those camping in the center, you see both those and people passing by in the photos). Alot of them are very poor people, some unemployed for the most part who are getting paid to stay there. That's exactly how it was last time - people just sat and drank until Ushenko came to power. People heard "free food and cash" and came over there. The point I'm making is alot of these people don't really support any goal in particular. The ukrainian real patriot is the man that's working his butt off for pittiful pay knowing damn well how much the goverment steals from him. He doesn't have the time to go and protest cause if he does he will be fired. You get a good laugh just by asking some of those people why they are there, most can't give a definite answer. I'll see what info I can dig up.

Regards,
Maestro

PS: No I wasn't familiar with the economic hitman, but that's very interesting stuff man. Good links.


[edit on 4-4-2007 by maestro46]

[edit on 4-4-2007 by maestro46]

By the way thanks everyone for your kind words and wishes.

Regards,
Maestro

PS: If people were to ask questions here I could try and get them answered by asking those protesting in the center (if the question involves them). This would help me look for info by giving me topics of discussion and such.

[edit on 4-4-2007 by maestro46]

Maestro,
My question at this point is do you think there is any influence out side of the country, or out side of the government who is influencing this to happen? That is why I posted the links to the video above.
Confessions of an Economic Hit Man.

As the protests are only getting started it is hard to tell. I can tell you the following straight off though. The last time during Ushenko's rise to power HUGE sums of money were transfered to his party (the orange party) by the US goverment. This was not really a big secret around here, or maybe no one was trying to cover this up or hush it down. I personaly confirmed this with my friend in the US embassy, they are "of the same opinion".

The reason for this last time was: Possible provilages in contracts made with ukrain in the future. Also the US is very keen on placing bases in ukrain and crimea especially, or getting NATO to come in there. This is why Russia supported Yanukovich's party (blue party, ushenko's main rival and current mp in Ukrain). It was largely a mutual political war between Russia and the US last time.

As for this time: This time there are atleast 4 parties involved as opposed to the 2 last time. Also the money the US sent was largely a waste (Ushenko's pols are VERY low), so I don't know if they'll get involved again. Russia will probably be looking to support Yanukovich again. however the 2 other parties leave plenty of room to choose between who to help if any other countries are interested.
THIS IS JUST SPECULATION.

I was just getting ready to head out again. This thread will be updated with concrete info when I get back.

Regards,
Maestro

PS: If people were to ask questions here I could try and get them answered by asking those protesting in the center (if the question involves them) or just search for info. This would help me look for info by giving me topics of discussion and such.


[edit on 5-4-2007 by maestro46]

Ok, this is what I got so far.

The fact that there are different parties camping in the center was what worried me. After checking it out it turns out that any hostilities between the two are very unlikely and they seem to be getting along just fine.
There are many people being brought in from all around ukrain whenever speaches are being held and that's when the center is packed with people. Also you get alot of poeple who stop just to listen. But when the speeches are over and people go back to their cities or continue whatever they were doing only those camping in the tents are left. Like I stressed befor. Majority of these are very poor people, atleast half are on their pansions. Quiet a few are just bums or drunks. But when crowds gather for speeches (people brought in from all over Ukrain etc.) it's a different show.

I've spent all of yesterday hanging around the Ukrainian Socialist Party during one of these speeches. I had a long talk with an old ex-Lt.clonel of the soviet army. There is a bit of the old soviet mentality bias in his logic, but he made some good points.

The following is the Lt.Clonel speaking with me commenting in the brackets

- People say "oh they're soviets, they'll bring back the gulags and such but I tell you this; befor people would be executed by firing squad if they stoll 1000+ rubles from the goverment (back then that was big money). Look how much is being stolen now, by thiefs and by politicians, and nobody even bothers to investigate these things (pretty much all of the organizations in ukraine who are supposed to monitor these things are bribed)."

- "Befor people atleast had an equal chance. I ended up homeless on the streets at very young age. My parents were dead. I went to work, they paid me properly and accordingly. When time came he joined the soviet army, went up through the ranks. When he left he was able to apply for university (which were free at the time). After he graduated the goverment provided him with an apartment to live in. He went to the doctor for checkups 3 times a year (hospitals were also free for people). owadays if you end up on the streets you're normaly dead befor 30 at most. Young boys join gangs and become holigans, girls sell themselves, and the goverment not just doesn't provide for you but doesn't even bother helping you."

- *similar to the paragraph above* "Education was free, healthcare was free, goverment provided you with housing, the city was clean, the goverment functioned. Now look at it. Our kids don't know anything. What do they teach in schools now? In the USSR someone who finished school with all Cs was on equal knowledge basis with a Harvard graduate (this is some of the soviet bias, but the education lvl was VERY high along with it's standards and 7th graders in the USSR were ahead by a year or two of the 7th graders in the US I have no hesitation saying that). These are all the things that disappeared and I ask you, did we really live as bad as some make it seems? We were living in a great country; perhaps not all these years were as happy as we wanted them, but it was a great country nonetheless.

- Befor all the distribution of products was controlled by the goverment. Now all these private buisnesses are flooding the market with alchohol and ciggarets and the current goverment does nothing to control this. The Soviet goverment would have never allowed this to rise to such a high lvl. The current goverment claims to be solving this problem but how can they when they simply allow the sale of all these products. And the healthcare department does nothing. This goverment just doesn't work.

I also had a discussion with him on the topic of Ukrain joining NATO and I would like to quote him on what he said:

"A soldier will never fight in the name of a world power or an oganization. He fights for his motherland where they speak his language, where his home stands, and where he grew up."

Wow, it does sound pretty bad.

Good luck there maestro46, and think about your safety, and that of your family, don't try to be a hero stay safe first.

Those demonstrations can really get nasty with three different factions protesting at the same place.


[edit on 6-4-2007 by Muaddib]

Anyways, I wanted to respond to your last comments.

It appears that the former officer you were speaking with wants Communism to rule your nation again.

I am not sure how old you were went your country was part of the U.S.S.R., or how much you know about it.

I was born and lived in a Communist country, and it is not as good and wonderful as that former officer says it is.

Communism is an opressing regime, it always was and it will always be.

My input on the problems that are happening in the former Communist countries is that there are powerful people who are still in government who want Communism back and never really wanted Capitalism to succeed, which is one of the reasons why capitalism hasn't worked so well in the former Communist countries.

[edit on 6-4-2007 by Muaddib]

Mind you if the Lt.Clonel's comments above seem unthought through and such keep in mind that when asked questions like "what is your goal here today" or "why do you think there must be a soviet type of goverment" it is very hard to come up with a concrete answer on the spot. You know what I'm talking about if you ever had to give an interview.

To my surprise the secretary of some part of the socialist party here in ukrain (it was hard to hear because of the speeches, I couldn't make out exactly what position in the party I was being explained about) is a girl in 11th grade from western ukrain. Now I've seen everything. I didn't get a chance to ask her the questions I wanted to, she had to leave with the party to return to her city, but I got her number and will keep in touch with her. I'm hopping to get some good info out from that.

Despite the obviousness of the stuation most people in the socialist crowd deny anyone being paid to stand and protest. I had a group of about 7 twentyfive year old looking men (who looked like complete alchoholic bums) come up and ask me if there were jobs available. Although I knew what I was being asked I wanted to hear the answer from the nonetheless, so I asked; "what jobs are you looking for?" "oh you know, if you need ayone to stand around here, those kind of things" replied one of the men. "I'm not the person to talk to about this, but how much are you hoping to get paid?" I asked. "We don't know, that's what we're trying to find out?" he said. I directed him and his buddies to the tents and then went my way.

I haven't had a chance to talk to ayone from the blue party at all yet.

I've also managed to have a conversation with a man who workes in the UN here in Ukrain. He was an American. His department works with the Ukrainian law enforcement agencies. He claims the are alright to work with and tend to get the job done. Personally after all the time I spent living here I was hardly convinced by that althgouh...they have improved by a large margin in the past few years, I'll give em that. I carefully questioned the guy about these protests. He told me his department was not handling this situation since it's not their job. This suonded odd to me since every yard near kreshatic was packed with buses filled with the Ukrainian SWAT team guys known as Berkut. That's law enforcement, but he didn't even know about that. He even seemed surprised. I myself thought this was simply something he wasn't permited to talk about becuase he didn't even know about the secretary of defenses statement (I will cover that in the next post). From what he told me about himself was he used to work for the US embassy here and a few years back he switched to the UN. From what I know the people who work in embassies are secret serviceor are connected to them in some way. That becomes even more obvious after they tell you they were deployed here shortly befor the orange revolution.

I asked the man if he knew anything about the US funding any current parties here. The reply was "no they wouldn't do that". I asked him if he knew anything about the US funding Ushenko's party during the orange revolution - "No, they wouldn't get involved like that either I don't think. Maybe small moutns of money here and there for help with homless people or other humanitarian needs." This last part can be interpreted either as wordplay or denial. Either way like I said befor; the US channeled huge sums of money here last time to make sure that the party that was pro american would be the one in charge. What the man was right about though is the US is not involved now. They were let down by Ushenko and it doesn't look like they'll support him again.

It looked to me like this man wasn't telling alot of things. After all, when asked about any possible interests the US had in the orange revolution his reply was "none, maybe a some". Come on man, you worked in the US embassy at the time and you're telling me that?

Originally posted by Muaddib
Anyways, I wanted to respond to your last comments.

It appears that the former officer you were speaking with wants Communism to rule your nation again.

I am not sure how old you were went your country was part of the U.S.S.R., or how much you know about it.

I was born and lived in a Communist country, and it is not as good and wonderful as that former officer says it is.

Communism is an opressing regime, it always was and it will always be.

My input on the problems that are happening in the former Communist countries is that there are powerful people who are still in government who want Communism back and never really wanted Capitalism to succeed, which is one of the reasons why capitalism hasn't worked so well in the former Communist countries.

[edit on 6-4-2007 by Muaddib]

I well know man, no worries. As for what's going on here in the goverment - it's not capitalism, it's an oligarchy for the most part. Those guy do not want communism back because then they would be ruined. The reason for the socialist party being so popular here is because alot of the people who lived in the USSR are still alive. I mean those who lived in it for quiet a bit. To me their point of view is understandable (i'm not a supporter of their cause thoguh). They were told their entire lives that capitalism would steal from them, exploit them. Basicaly all the things that the current goverment turned into. You can't really blame some of them.

Regards,
Maestro

later in the day though, to my surprise and horror, a group of 4 people walked out onto the center square (the crowed was long gone and only the "campers" in the tents remained). They were waving 3 flags; one plain orange flag, one EU flag with ukrain in the middle on the star circle, and one red and black flag (no idea what party that is). I thought a fight was definately going to break out but thank god no one took such initiatives. The police standing around the area stood close to this group to make sure no agressors aproached them. I walked over to the man holding the orange flag and offered him a smoke. We started talking. He was in his mid twenties and was from russia believe it or not (the orange party is very anti-russian). He came to kiev at the age of 11 and also took part in the orange revolution. This is the conversation I had with him;

Me - "You're not afraid that the two parties here will tear you to pieces?" (he was pretty much standing alone).

The man - "No, hell I'd love it if one of these fags started something."

Me - "Do you feel that this would lead to some sort of solution in this matter?"

The man - "Yhea man. That's where we failed last time. After we had our victory (orange revolution) we let these fagots walk off when we should have finished them off."

Me - "So what measures should be taken to solve this issue?"

The man - "What measures...I'll tell you. What we need to do is to hand out some rifles, drop a few hundred of these dumba**es in their graves and then people will think twice befor starting this sh*t again."

Me - "So what you're saying is a revolution must be carried out in force."

The man - "Yes, that's the way to go."

After a short pause

The man - "See how these guys are doing things? They're just paying people and all they got protesting here are a bunch of drunks. When we were standing here (orange revolution) there was a fire in peoples eyes."

Me - "so you're saying you guys never paid anyone to stand with you or never brought in people from other parts of ukrain?"

The man - "No, never."

Me - "So all the thousands of protesters were from kiev???"

The man - "yes"

*This is major BS, although last time many more people were standing for an ideological cause there were bus after bus bringing in people from western ukrain. There was so much drinking they had to repair half of the center afterwards. He is right though, the orange revolution was oganized alot better.*

Me - "Tell me do you think parties here recieve aid from other cuontries?"

The man - "Ofcourse, that goes without saying. Everyone hass interests in this matter."

Me - "Have you heard of any countries in particular?"

The man - "I cannot say, and right now it's hard to tell"

Me - "would you say Russia is backing this "blue party" movement?"

The man - "no, this time they're hand's off unlike last time."

Me - "you told me earlier you consider you flag to have the simplest ideology behind it out of all the flags here. Why is that?"

The man - "It's just orange, other flags here have slogans on them and all. Mine speaks for itself."

Me - "So, in your words, what is the ideology behind it?"

The man - It's...well....you know it's hard to phrase it in one sentence and all but"

Me - "just, in your own words man, take your time. Why is it you are standing here, what is your goal?"

the man - "I don't know man. One thing for sure is I don't want to see any more of these fagots (the parties in the center atm)."

Me - "so no communism, but the blues want democracy too. To me it seems like the blues and the orange always accuse each other of corruption. The only difference is one is pro russian and the other one wants into NATO. Is NATO what you are looking forward to?"

The man - "No man, NATO or not I don't care. I just wan't democracy here and a good goverment. I don't care Ushenko or whoever."

Me "So democracy and a clean goverment."

The man - "yes"

here is what worries me most atm. An alarming action was carried out by Ushenko. Unconstitutionaly, the president of urkrain dismissed the council of national security. The reason for this was because it's speaker did not agree with the president's action of dismissing the parlament (the thing that sparked the protests). In place of the speaker he put a minister of the armed forces of Ukrain (I'm not sure of his name atm, i'll be sure to update this post once I do). Ushenko had absolutely NO authority to do so, and such an act, I repeat, goes directly against the constitution of Ukrain.

The minister of defense, although he is part of the parlament and carries out orders from the priminister only (the PM is Yanukovich, ushenko's main rival and head of the blue party), stated that he will only obey orders from Ushenko himself and no one else NO MATTER what those orders are.

This is VERY VERY BAD. Just a small example of the mayhem, chaos, and disorder that is going on in the goverment here. In case any of you still think that Ushenko's party is a pro western democratic party...take a look at their policies. I'm trying not to take sides here but I am certainly not happy with this. Ushenko is trying to siez whatever control he has left in the goverment under and threats are flying.

As of today the constitutional court of ukrain (if I translated that correctly) began overlooking the presidents dismissal of the parlament. The case is about weather he is acting within his frame of rights or not (NO).

That concludes the news update for today

regards,
Maestro

PS: If people were to ask questions here I could try and get them answered by asking those protesting in the center (if the question involves them) or just search for info. This would help me look for info by giving me topics of discussion and such. I wuold be more than happy to try and answer your questions the best i can.


[edit on 6-4-2007 by maestro46]

[edit on 6-4-2007 by maestro46]

This thread is riveting to me, and a perfect example of what ATS is all about. A flag and a way above from me, Maestro, I very much appreciate your updates on the current happenings. The perspective you offer, from inside this situation is priceless!

[edit on 6-4-2007 by tjack]

Originally posted by JacKatMtn
Do you think this heated confrontation at the top will eventually lead to violence in your streets?

Sounds like the leaders equate those in the square as pawns, do you think Yushchenko or Yanukovich actually care about them?

Stay safe..

My concern in the begin with was the fact that 2 different parties were camping at the center (3 even, i can't remember the name of the 3rd one but their flag is pink). To my surprise there is NO hostilities between the parties camping in the center WHATSOEVER and I do not think there will be. As for hostilities between the parties at the center and Yushenko's party, and even Yulia Timoshenko's party (which the news seems to comepletely neglect) it's hard to say. Read my post about the dismissal of the national council. That is what worries me. The tention is between Yanukovich and Yushenko mainy, but there are MANY different parties involved now and that's what makes this different from the orange revolution.

To be honest...myself...I do fear that this will escalate to violance. Again, the evidence for such an escalation is scarce, but that's how I feel atm.

Regards,
Maestro

PS: If people were to ask questions here I could try and get them answered by asking those protesting in the center (if the question involves them) or just search for info. This would help me look for info by giving me topics of discussion and such.

Originally posted by tjack
This thread is riveting to me, and a perfect example of what ATS is all about. A flag and a way above from me, Maestro, I very much appreciate your updates on the current happenings. The perspective you offer, from inside this situation is priceless!

[edit on 6-4-2007 by tjack]

Many thanks tjack. Your support is very much appreciated.

Regards,
Maestro

PS: If people were to ask questions here I could try and get them answered by asking those protesting in the center (if the question involves them) or just search for info. This would help me look for info by giving me topics of discussion and such.