Demystifying the Phrases in Race-related talk, Pt. II

page: 3
6
<< 1  2    4  5 >>

log in

join

posted on Apr, 6 2007 @ 03:00 PM
link   

Originally posted by nextguyinline
Sociologists are not infallible.


Show me where I said this.



'Victim culture' is a not a phrase made up by interneters against the more melanonined folk.


It is on this site. Funny how people didn't start telling people they don't know that they were a part of the victim culture until we pissed off a lot of white people with our threads and posts, isn't it?




posted on Apr, 6 2007 @ 03:08 PM
link   
Not going to talk to the sociologists point. It speaks for itself. Did you read the link I gave? Just google 'victim culture'.

To be a victim is one thing, to allow ones self to remain a victim by believing someone else is the only person who can make one rise above is a full-blown card carrying member of the victim culture.



posted on Apr, 6 2007 @ 03:20 PM
link   

Originally posted by nextguyinline
Not going to talk to the sociologists point.


I don't expect you to.



To be a victim is one thing, to allow ones self to remain a victim by believing someone else is the only person who can make one rise above is a full-blown card carrying member of the victim culture.


I notice "black people who point out things like white privilege" are excluded from your definition of victim culture. Care to explain why said people are accused of being a part of the victim culture?

I have an answer; the people doing the accusing are uncomfortable with things like white privilege being discussed by non-white people. They also have nothing better to counter with than "nya na na na na, you're in the victim culture."



posted on Apr, 6 2007 @ 03:23 PM
link   
I agree with truthseeka. "Victim Culture" is a political statement of the right (especially white males) who do not want to honor cultural diversity. As a result of feeling beseiged, they have to dismiss everything that people of color say because it is more fashionable these days to celebrate their own victimhood at the hands of affirmative action.

I believe that a phrase such as this one was invented by white males as a way to denegrate people of color and dismiss their words because it would mean that their supremacy would start to be dismantled.

In fact, there is an entire polemical response that has been taken in by white people as a way to sweep what the people of color say under the rug so it won't be discussed anymore.

It's amazing about white people sometimes. When they don't want to focus on painful issues, they create a disturbance so it stops. When painful issues about race end up in their face, they have to attack the methodology, the messenger and complain until the "real talk" stops. And then, they pretend that the "real talk" is a delusion so that they don't have to 'see' what is plainly in front of their face. And it is especially an insult when they do all these things under the damn guise of "equality".

Victim culture is one of the least "equality" laden phrases I have ever heard.


I will come back with responses to key posts and sources later in order to throw my hat in the ring in terms of discussing victim culture. Although I have an entire thread intricately discussing the reasons behind why America participates in "anti-victimist" language, it does very good to dismantle why whites feel they must call everyone else a victim when there is a polemic that attacks their manner of thinking.



posted on Apr, 6 2007 @ 03:24 PM
link   
Let's Stick To The Topic

As discussed at length here, it is very important to focus on the topic and avoid baiting or sniping in these threads.

Specifically, let's refrain from personal commentary, putting words in the mouths of others and -- in general -- behavior which derails the thread.

Topic: Demystifying the Phrases in Race-related talk, Pt. II

Please respect the topic and the terms & conditions of this forum.





[edit on 4/6/2007 by Majic]



posted on Apr, 6 2007 @ 03:36 PM
link   
I believe the term 'victim culture' originated over the last 25 years or so because of the litigous nature of the people in our country - has nothing to do with race at all. Just the mindset that somebody else is needed to make things better for me. THe best example? I can't keep a hot cup of coffee out of my lap when driving so the people who sold me that hot cup of coffee shouldn't serve hot beverages, and pay me an exorbitant amount money.

"I cant take care of myself, I need someone else to do it for me" - that is the victim culture.



posted on Apr, 6 2007 @ 03:43 PM
link   

I notice "black people who point out things like white privilege" are excluded from your definition of victim culture. Care to explain why said people are accused of being a part of the victim culture?


I didn't list any type of person. They are being accused because the accusers are uneducated on the matter.

If I did make a list, they would be left out, because acknowledging the priviledge isn't a victim mindset, it's a reformist mindset. Me and you must know it exists to actively reform it.



posted on Apr, 6 2007 @ 03:43 PM
link   
Open challenge:

Show me how someone who points out these type of things is exhibiting signs of the victim culture. This is a direct challenge to people who are most fond of this phrase in these threads. I'll be waiting, but I won't hold my breath.

This is because this catch phrase serves ONLY to belittle someone who disagrees with you. It's basically a more acceptable phrase than porch monkey or jigaboo, for example.



posted on Apr, 6 2007 @ 03:44 PM
link   

Originally posted by truthseeka
I have an answer; the people doing the accusing are uncomfortable with things like white privilege being discussed by non-white people.

No. We are uncomfortable when the ATS members who repetively post thinly veiled anti-white posts and threads turn around, accuse others as being racist when they disagree and then have the arrogence to insinuate that admin must be racist because they close threads because those same members violate the rules. I've even seen members insinuate that their well earned warns [both verbal and official] must be racially motivated [possibly to disuade them from doing so].

I think that qualifies as taking advantage of victim culture.

[edit on 6-4-2007 by riley]



posted on Apr, 6 2007 @ 03:48 PM
link   
Nextguy, that wasn't directed to you.

I just saw your explanation, and hell, I agree with it. But, you KNOW that was not the way this term has been used on these boards. The people who have used this term on these boards (almost all white) have used them because they can get away with this term more easily than saying ghetto culture or something.



posted on Apr, 6 2007 @ 03:51 PM
link   

Originally posted by riley
No. We are uncomfortable when the ATS members who repetively post thinly veiled anti-white posts and threads then turn around.. accuse others as being racist when they disagree and then have the arrogence to insinuate that admin must be racist because they close thread because those same members violate the rules.


I'm sure you'll have no problem providing evidence of these anti-white posts and threads, then.




I've even seen members insinuate that their well earned warns [both verbal and official] must be racially motivated [possibly to disuade them from doing so].

I think that qualifies as taking advantage of victim culture.

[edit on 6-4-2007 by riley]


Let's see you name these members.



posted on Apr, 6 2007 @ 03:54 PM
link   

Originally posted by truthseeka
Nextguy, that wasn't directed to you.

I just saw your explanation, and hell, I agree with it. But, you KNOW that was not the way this term has been used on these boards.


Teach us a better term.
Teach us a term, other than "victim culture" that doesn't have a racial undertone, or connotation.
Instead of telling us what's wrong. Tell us what's right.
There definitely exists, a form of this "culture", how would YOU describe it?
If it makes sense, I'll add it to my lexicon.



posted on Apr, 6 2007 @ 03:56 PM
link   
Here are some specifics regarding the study of the Victim Culture phenomenon as it relates to various subject matter.

Victim Culture and Domestic Violence

Victim Culture and Psychotherapy

Victim Culture and Substance Abuse

There are literally hundreds more of these studies and examples that clearly indicate the phrase "Victim Culture" is not only acceptable within the guidelines of a debate, but very well documented and available for research purposes.

With that substantiated, how is this particular term/phrase any more or less viable than the other previously listed phrases?

It may be interesting to examine why this one phrase has garnered this much attention to the apparent exclusion of others..

Semper



posted on Apr, 6 2007 @ 04:04 PM
link   

Originally posted by spacedoubt
Teach us a better term.
Teach us a term, other than "victim culture" that doesn't have a racial undertone, or connotation.
Instead of telling us what's wrong. Tell us what's right.
There definitely exists, a form of this "culture", how would YOU describe it?
If it makes sense, I'll add it to my lexicon.


Why should I?

The state doesn't pay me to teach you. You don't pay me to teach you. Why should I teach you anything?

Besides, it's Y'ALL that have taught me...



posted on Apr, 6 2007 @ 04:07 PM
link   

Originally posted by nextguyinline
'Victim culture' is a not a phrase made up by interneters ...


I actually learned about it in a class in 1995. It impressed me and I have used the tools I learned in that class in my life since then.

The phrase "Victim Culture" is one that can apply to many areas in life. It's certainly not a race-specific term. But as we can see, it's a highly emotionalized phrase when used in conjunction with racial discussions.

I thought I'd expand on it a little since it IS a phrase sometimes used in race-related discussions and that's what we're doing here. Let's see if we can demystify this one, ok?

This article explores the victim culture of criminals and how we sometimes feel sorry for them because of their plight.

(Interestingly, last night while watching Dateline NBC's "To Catch a Predator", I said to my husband, "For some reason I feel really sorry for these guys"! These Internet predators who get caught in the act... And for some reason I can't fathom, I feel sorry for them... And I think it has to do with what's explained in the following article.)



Victim Culture began in 1880

Excessive sympathy for criminals is not as new as many people believe, says Angela Ellis-Jones. It goes back at least 120 years.
...
Criminals, because they tended to come from disadvantaged backgrounds, were seen as people who should be treated leniently. Far from being viewed as a threat to the social order, as in earlier generations, they were seen as mentally and morally weak people who deserved the state's protection.
...
The extent to which the general public have been intimidated into living their lives on the burglar's terms can be gauged by the fact that, when I asked several security firms what I could do to protect my property, the most frequent response was 'putting up spikes or barbed wire will get you into trouble with the police/cause a burglar to sue you.'


And this one goes further into the victim culture and blaming the victim.



How Psychotherapy Fuels the Victim Industry

This three-part web page invites the reader to go beyond the politically correct thinking on victimization and develop a more comprehensive and complex understanding of the dynamic of victimhood. The hope is for healing the hurt and injury of victims and for increasing the effectiveness of prediction and prevention of future violence.



Originally posted by truthseeka
Show me how someone who points out these type of things is exhibiting signs of the victim culture.


They aren't necessarily. And there's a lot of information on this topic if you're really interested in knowing what it means. I mean, you admitted you didn't read my thread on it. If you want to know what is meant by it, if you really want to see what I mean by it instead of assuming what I mean and why I made the thread, maybe you should read it. I have a lot of sources, most not about race at all, that clearly explain what it is.

I'm sorry you think the use of the term is in response to the black people on this board, but my motivation was to get some different and varied subjects introduced into the Social Issues Forum because it's one of my favorites and I felt it was getting a really negative rap.



posted on Apr, 6 2007 @ 04:07 PM
link   
What are the opinions of the members here in regards to the usage of terms or phrase that have been identified as inflammatory?

Do you feel we should avoid them, or discuss them more completely to come to a better understanding of the reason they are inflammatory?

Everyone here, I am sure, is familiar with the limitations on free speech. One can not yell fire in a crowded theater, certain words are classified now as "fighting words", etc.

Using this as the template, should we as ATSer's avoid specific terms and if so, what terms would qualify as "Non ATS terms? Who would decide?

I really think this can be discussed on an intellectual level and not so much an emotional one. If that takes "banning" certain words from the study of the phenomenon, I am willing to comply. If only to keep some semblance of peace and make the topic more productive.

Semper



posted on Apr, 6 2007 @ 04:10 PM
link   
All those links, semp, and you STILL haven't answered why it's appropriate to tell black ATS members who talk about race that they are "embracing the victim culture." STILL no answer as to how we who point out these things have a victim mentality.

Like I said, the ONLY reason this phrase is used in the context of these boards is to belittle us on here. And, I already talked about invisible knapsack and linguistic gymnastics...pay attention.



posted on Apr, 6 2007 @ 04:11 PM
link   

Originally posted by truthseeka

Originally posted by spacedoubt
Teach us a better term.
Teach us a term, other than "victim culture" that doesn't have a racial undertone, or connotation.
Instead of telling us what's wrong. Tell us what's right.
There definitely exists, a form of this "culture", how would YOU describe it?
If it makes sense, I'll add it to my lexicon.


Why should I?

The state doesn't pay me to teach you. You don't pay me to teach you. Why should I teach you anything?

Besides, it's Y'ALL that have taught me...


Deny ignorance.
Thats why.
You tell people how wrong they are, but make no attempt to right this wrong.
We are here to teach each other. We can all learn from each other.
So, just once more.
How about a better phrase, to replace "victim culture". I won't hound you anymore about it. Just this last opportunity to deny ignorance on this.



posted on Apr, 6 2007 @ 04:19 PM
link   

Originally posted by semperfortis
What are the opinions of the members here in regards to the usage of terms or phrase that have been identified as inflammatory?


I'm not using them in this thread, except to study them.



Do you feel we should avoid them, or discuss them more completely to come to a better understanding of the reason they are inflammatory?


Discuss them. Calmly. Rationally.



Using this as the template, should we as ATSer's avoid specific terms and if so, what terms would qualify as "Non ATS terms? Who would decide?


Terms should not be avoided, IMO. But in this thread about the phrases we use in race-related discussions, I choose not to use them except to discuss them.



If that takes "banning" certain words from the study of the phenomenon, I am willing to comply.


I don't know about "banning" but each of us are free to choose to not make this any more of an emotional discussion than it already is. And that's what I'm choosing.



posted on Apr, 6 2007 @ 04:21 PM
link   

Originally posted by spacedoubt
Deny ignorance.
Thats why.
You tell people how wrong they are, but make no attempt to right this wrong.
We are here to teach each other. We can all learn from each other.
So, just once more.
How about a better phrase, to replace "victim culture". I won't hound you anymore about it. Just this last opportunity to deny ignorance on this.


Nope. Deny your own ignorance.

I've already learned from trying to explain that anti-Semite is a Zionist catch phrase used to get people critical of Israel/Zionism to shut up. I've already learned from trying to explain that Arabs are the most numerous group of Semites in the world, and that there are technically more anti-Arab Semites than anti-Jewish Semites. But, the anti-Arab Semites are NOT called anti-Semites. And you know what I was called when I did this?

ANTI-SEMITE!

:shk:


So NO, I won't deny your ignorance for you.






top topics



 
6
<< 1  2    4  5 >>

log in

join