Too many co-incidences

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You got another WELL DESERVED vote from me Agit8d,the work you must have put into this is nothing short of incredible.Darn good job,a must read for all .

It struck me recently (though I guess I knew it all along) that more than anything this war is driven by ideology. Now it is one thing for an individual have enough courage in their convictions to die for it, and to do so is often considered honorable... it is another thing all together to send others off to die for them while you stay safely home.

What it boils down to is this.....do we have the right to dictate terms to the other nations based solely on the fact that we are THE superpower, and if they do not fall quickly in line, forcibly install a government that will? The neo-cons who sold us this bill of goods and their supporters who bought it say yes and believe in this war. And obviously those of us who disagree think that is a load of bullhooey don't support it.

[edit on 2-4-2007 by grover]

Awesome topic

You have voted Agit8dChop for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Very well written and documented

Solid post. This is something that I have been trying to tell people but not in as eloquent a manner. Great work.

Here is where I have come from. I voted for this man and his counterpart. I had been Republican for my entire life. Well, that has changed and mainly because of the research I have put into this. I guess gaining an MBA and learning how to really dig into a subject kind of paid off.

Yet, if you would have pointed me at the sites that you listed I would have laughed at you and said that you were only going to liberal democratic sites. The only problem is that with the vote issue, well, it was proven that Gore actually did win and that there was tampering done by the republicans. Yet we have seen no follow up retribution against the people involved. The Ohio vote in the second election is what sealed it for me and started me on my path to looking into things. Once again the vote was rigged and GW got into office illegally.

I have always said on this site for people to follow the money. Follow the power. Well, this whole chain of unfortunate events has led to both. Some individuals that wouldn't ever dream of being able to get a decent job anywhere else after this administration is up will be set for life from these wars. They have lied many times about things and have been caught yet people still support them blindly.

God, I am a Seahawk fan through and through and love my team. It just embarasses me that the sister in law to our quarterback is one of these 'blind' fools that will state on national television (the View) that she would rather believe her government than the enemy. Wait a minute Elizabeth, if all of these coinkadinks don't show you who the enemy truly is then I don't know what else to do for you.

Get past blind faith people and look at the facts.

dude, nice post!!!
Its good to see someone putting the effort in to get there point across about whats really happenining in the world today.






[edit on 2-4-2007 by gtirlad2]

[edit on 2-4-2007 by gtirlad2]

Originally posted by planetfor_rent
this is one of the best l have seen so far here... now above all this , as l sead before , we are lucky to have strong country like russia and china to inderectly protect the rest of the wourld . could any ones magine how far these stupid ass hole GW and CO could go if they had no super power strong enough to stop them. these american are the worst virus on this planet and we all know that they will pay for very long what they did . as canadian l wish them all they did to irak . GOD MESS AMERICA

Be careful my friend. What you wish upon innocent people like myself and my three young children and all of the others in this country will come back to you tenfold. It's not worth harboring hatred for a people when it is the money hungry powerbase that is running the show.

Put yourself in our shoes for one minute. The money base has taken over the education system and made them a federally backed entity. Now, in order for people to get educated they must, in most cases, go to public school. This means that they are taught WHAT the government wants them to be taught. This means they are taught to trust, wholeheartedly, the government that is at this very moment leading them into destruction. They are taught to swallow what they are told and to believe it outright.

I have woken up and will make sure that everyone I know will at least hear from me on this subject. My children will not swallow what they are told. They will think for themselves.

You must remember that it is this great country that has helped to spurn some of the greatest technological advances of our time. This great country has done much good for this world. You can't blame us all for a small group of corrupt government members. It is not ALL of our government people that are bad. There are a specific few that are greedy [SNIP] that have no moral base. It is these people that we need to get out of power.

We are working towards reconstructing this government that has gotten way out of hand. We will succeed in impeaching these evil dictators and forcing them out of office. Their days are numbered but we can't succeed if you (the people of the countries of the world) swallow the poisen that they are feeding you all. They WANT you to hate the US.

This is the biggest conspiracy of them all. WHY do they want you to hate the US? BECAUSE THEY WILL THEN HAVE A REASON TO BOMB YOU! THEY WILL HAVE THE BACKING TO KEEP STARTING WARS WITH EVERYONE AND ANYONE THAT "HATES" US.

Don't fall for it. Don't look at these criminals as the face of America. Look at your children and your friends and see what America is truly about underneath all of the corrupt government. Seriously, you are simply falling right into their trap.

As for the statement in the original post about needing to be un-American.

No, that is not completely true. I am still very American. I am an American that believes in the Constitution that this great nation was created on. Not the corruptedness that rules it now. So, I am anti-current administration but I am far from anti-American.

Considering also my Canadian friend that you are an American I would be fighting this as well.

Mod edit: Profanity/Circumvention Of Censors – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 2-4-2007 by sanctum]

Originally posted by Agit8dChop

Originally posted by deltaboy
Maybe you can do research on Clinton Administration dealing with Al Qaeda and why those attacks came to reality as well. Maybe there is a conspiracy as well.

Im glad someone brought Clinton up.

I think they (neo-cons) really tried hard to push Clinton into hitting Iraq
A full letter of the PNAC letter to Clinton suggesting Iraq as a military target can be found: Here

1998: PNAC Letter to Clinton:
Remove Saddam ... vital interests in the Gulf
Jan. 26, 1998. Open Letter to Clinton: Remove Saddam
PNAC's first public action was an open letter to Clinton stating:

Turn your Administration's attention to implementing a strategy for removing Saddam's regime from power. This will require a full complement of diplomatic, political and military efforts. ... including military steps, to protect our vital interests in the Gulf." — January, 1998.

While im sure there were strange going's on behind the scenes of the Clinton Administration, I do not believe Clinton himself was a part of it, or wanted to be a part of it.
Wether you submit to him being a sleaze, or a bad leader, He had many, many chances to propel the plan put in place, but he chose not to.

He wasn’t going to budge on the subject. He was aware of what was going on within the government but behind his back. In fact, I think Clinton was making an effort to track down whom in the government was part of this neo-con plan. Where did he look? to Mega.

Pretty funny Agit8dchop, since you must have forgotten Operation Desert Fox back in 1998. And you say he was never involved. I see a conspiracy here.

Correct, actually Desert fox backs me up.
If he was involved, why would he simply strike them in limited air campaigns, then RE-DEPLOY Un forces?

On December 16, 1998, United States Central Command (USCENTCOM) military forces launched cruise missile attacks against military targets in Iraq. These strikes were ordered by the President of the United States and were undertaken in response to Iraq's continued failure to comply with United Nations Security Council resolutions as well as their interference with United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM) inspectors. The strikes were designed to deliver a serous blow to Saddam Hussein's capability to manufacture, store, maintain and deliver weapons of mass destruction and his ability to threaten or otherwise intimidate his neighbours.

Saddam wasn’t living up to the UN deal, he was interfering in UN inspections.

Operation Desert Fox

Had he of been in on the agenda of the neo-cons, wouldn’t he of deployed forces for an invasion, like we are involved with today?

His choice to perform air strikes, and work WITH the UN, shows that he wasn’t prepared to follow the plans, and seize Iraq.

Stark contrast to today don’t you think?
Where we ignored the UN, when they told us it was Illegal.
Instead of limited air strikes, we removed government, disbanded the military and occupied Iraq, based on faulty evidence.

I think this just proves further, that GW is a part of the Neo-con agenda, where as Bill Clinton wasn’t.

If you want to prove me wrong, and show that Iraq was actually a needed war, and that 911 is as we heard please by all means point by point debunk my opening thread and show me how all those happenings are in NO WAY connected.

Why do you bother concentrating your defense on Bill Clinton?

You have voted Agit8dChop for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

I meant to do this when I first read your OP, While I do not agree with all of your sentiments, I can see and appreciate the time and effort you put into this thread. Glad your batteries have been recharged and kudos on your fine effort!!!!

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
Correct, actually Desert fox backs me up.
If he was involved, why would he simply strike them in limited air campaigns, then RE-DEPLOY Un forces?

On December 16, 1998, United States Central Command (USCENTCOM) military forces launched cruise missile attacks against military targets in Iraq. These strikes were ordered by the President of the United States and were undertaken in response to Iraq's continued failure to comply with United Nations Security Council resolutions as well as their interference with United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM) inspectors. The strikes were designed to deliver a serous blow to Saddam Hussein's capability to manufacture, store, maintain and deliver weapons of mass destruction and his ability to threaten or otherwise intimidate his neighbours.

Saddam wasn’t living up to the UN deal, he was interfering in UN inspections.

Operation Desert Fox

Had he of been in on the agenda of the neo-cons, wouldn’t he of deployed forces for an invasion, like we are involved with today?

His choice to perform air strikes, and work WITH the UN, shows that he wasn’t prepared to follow the plans, and seize Iraq.

Stark contrast to today don’t you think?
Where we ignored the UN, when they told us it was Illegal.
Instead of limited air strikes, we removed government, disbanded the military and occupied Iraq, based on faulty evidence.

I think this just proves further, that GW is a part of the Neo-con agenda, where as Bill Clinton wasn’t.

If you want to prove me wrong, and show that Iraq was actually a needed war, and that 911 is as we heard please by all means point by point debunk my opening thread and show me how all those happenings are in NO WAY connected.

Why do you bother concentrating your defense on Bill Clinton?

No, it does not back you up, since it would otherwise disprove that Clintion would ever be involved in any attacks on Iraq in the first place. He could have just do nothing if Iraq was not considered a threat, no matter how much pressure he is supposedly in or showing his resistance to the idea as you have mentioned.

You must have forgotten the operation by the CIA with the backing of the Clintion Administration back in the mid 90s. The 41st Bush president try to overthrow Saddam in early 90s using the CIA as well, so did Clintion in mid 90s, and now this president did as well. If the politicians can achieve success in getting rid of Saddam with covert means which means fewer loss of life and cost, then so be it. Clintion must be part of the neocon agenda as you say.

Well no,
Because Iraq WAS in breach of its limts, and the UN as well as the US, had given them chance after chance to allow inspectors to inspect.
Saddam continued to be a hassle, so clinton decided, If you dont let us inspect them, we shall just destroy them.

Your saying, that for Clinton NOT to be involved, he would have to of done NOTHING to Iraq, and if he did 'anything' means he was in on it.

thats flawed, Clinton was the leader of the USA, he was the ONLY US president to sustain Saddam and his UN regulations to such an extent. GW Snr was out early, and bush hit him immediatley, where as clinton took him on for his WHOLE TERM!

They tried to assasinate him, and have him replaced internally. Correct,
This is a far cry from military invasion, and occupation. Dont you think?

Delta boy I want to ask you a direct question to get this thread, BACK on track.

All the co-incidences I list in the OP, do you feel as though it was all planned? Or that all those events, just happened to occur exactly how the neo-cons needed them too?

Originally posted by Agit8dChop

Your saying, that for Clinton NOT to be involved, he would have to of done NOTHING to Iraq, and if he did 'anything' means he was in on it.

thats flawed, Clinton was the leader of the USA, he was the ONLY US president to sustain Saddam and his UN regulations to such an extent. GW Snr was out early, and bush hit him immediatley, where as clinton took him on for his WHOLE TERM!

They tried to assasinate him, and have him replaced internally. Correct,
This is a far cry from military invasion, and occupation. Dont you think?

No that is not flawed because as you would say, what was the purpose by Clinton to try to remove Saddam in the first place? If Clinton's intention as you stated was just to contain him. Clinion is pretty much doing like any other president which is the removal of Saddam whether it was covert means or an invasion. This president chose to invade, Clintion prefers covert means, different presidents with different personality in which they believe it could mean success.

Didn't Clintion want a democratic govt. installed in Iraq as well. This he wanted to do with covert means, Bush on the other hand wanted to do it the hard way and fast, not the slow method.

Covert means could usually conclude in failure, which is why Saddam survived Clinton's terms. Same thing for Osama Bin Laden when Clinton went against him. Covert means pretty much failed. Bush went the hard way and invaded Afghanistan to take on Osama Bin Laden where Clinton just lob a few missiles to his way. Bush did the same thing for Iraq against Saddam.

Delta boy I want to ask you a direct question to get this thread, BACK on track.

All the co-incidences I list in the OP, do you feel as though it was all planned? Or that all those events, just happened to occur exactly how the neo-cons needed them too?

All you got were connecting the dots, not freaking hard evidence to prove that the govt. wanted a successful terrorist attack on 9/11 by a group that CTers say does not exist. It just shows that the govt. has in past few decades failed to protect America from terrorist attacks. Same thing happend under Clinton, same thing happend under this administration.

So, in your mind,

There's no reason to investigate the US government, being that long before he became president, he declared IRAQ as his goal.

There's no reason to investigate the elections, being so many irregularities occured, and so many laws were brocken?

There's no reason to investigate the government, being so many warnings were present, yet failed to be noted about 911?

Tthere's no reason to investigate the government, being all the proof they said was CONCRETE, turned out to be flawed? Whats worse is they arent even showing you the evidence, they mistakenly believed!

Out of all that, you still beleive there's no reason to question the government?

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
So, in your mind,

There's no reason to investigate the US government, being that long before he became president, he declared IRAQ as his goal.

Every potential president has goals in their mind. Didn't Bush wanted to pull troops out of nation building process? Didn't Condelezza Rice mentioned about not having the 82nd Airborne escorting kids to school?

There's no reason to investigate the elections, being so many irregularities occured, and so many laws were brocken?

Many irregularities that the Democrats try to put out in their embarrassment for losing the election on a very thin margin.

There's no reason to investigate the government, being so many warnings were present, yet failed to be noted about 911?

Its called 9/11 Commission.

Tthere's no reason to investigate the government, being all the proof they said was CONCRETE, turned out to be flawed? Whats worse is they arent even showing you the evidence, they mistakenly believed!

What proof are you talking about that is CONCRETE that is considered flaw? You talking about the hijackers that are supposedly dead?

Out of all that, you still beleive there's no reason to question the government?

I always question the govt. but you got to have some proof, not theories.

I apologize for using any form of profanity even the visual kind to everyone on here. I normally do not allow my emotions to get the best of me but when people start talking about hate and such towards "Americans" when they obviously do not understand what a true "American" is I tend to get a little protective. After all, we are simply human like the rest of the world. We have our dreams and aspirations, we have our poor and stepped on, we have our crime and fighting, but we all still bleed and all still love. Just like you all.

Originally posted by deltaboy
Every potential president has goals in their mind. Didn't Bush wanted to pull troops out of nation building process? Didn't Condelezza Rice mentioned about not having the 82nd Airborne escorting kids to school?

Um, I dont quite understand what your talking about here?
But, Im sure every president has had goals.
But, how many have resultedi n the deaths of hundereds of thousands? while profits are made for the few who wanted those goals?
You honestly think Bush and Co did NOTHING to maniuplate their way into Iraq?

Many irregularities that the Democrats try to put out in their embarrassment for losing the election on a very thin margin.

So because the dems lost, your saying that these things never happened?
What about the laws that were broken?
Thats a pretty thin line their,
'' There's no cheating, the dems are just sore losers ''
You would be to, if you won!

Its called 9/11 Commission.

That 911 was as crooked as the election.
The people charged to conduct it, were Bush cronnies.
They still say the hijackers were the saudi's whom are alive.
They didnt even publish all the desired evidence.
If you base your statements on the 911 commission, you've just completely failed in your argument im afraid.
The 911 commission has been proven a farse from day 1.

What proof are you talking about that is CONCRETE that is considered flaw? You talking about the hijackers that are supposedly dead?

No im talking about the proof Cheney and Bush claimed they had about Iraq's VAST stockpiles of WMD's. Again revert to my OP.
They had, and i quote

NO DOUBT

Solid evidence

What possible proof could they off had, that was so solid of a fantasy WMD programme?

I always question the govt. but you got to have some proof, not theories.

Fair enough, As long as your happy in your reality who am I to judge.
Keep your head in the sand though, because things are going to get complicated for your kind above the dirt.

Originally posted by deltaboy

Why do you bother concentrating your defense on Bill Clinton?

No, it does not back you up, since it would otherwise disprove that Clintion would ever be involved in any attacks on Iraq in the first place. He could have just do nothing if Iraq was not considered a threat, no matter how much pressure he is supposedly in or showing his resistance to the idea as you have mentioned.

You must have forgotten the operation by the CIA with the backing of the Clintion Administration back in the mid 90s. The 41st Bush president try to overthrow Saddam in early 90s using the CIA as well, so did Clintion in mid 90s, and now this president did as well. If the politicians can achieve success in getting rid of Saddam with covert means which means fewer loss of life and cost, then so be it. Clintion must be part of the neocon agenda as you say.

Dude, you have completely missed his point (a very valid one at that). If Clinton indeed had his sights on Iraq in 98 then we would have ATTACKED them and not simply made moves to send a message. The message we would have sent would have been WAR and not the little nudge that Clinton sent.

Debunk him point for point like he asked instead of trying to fight back with what is quickly becoming an illigitimate point.

Originally posted by dariousg
Dude, you have completely missed his point (a very valid one at that). If Clinton indeed had his sights on Iraq in 98 then we would have ATTACKED them and not simply made moves to send a message. The message we would have sent would have been WAR and not the little nudge that Clinton sent.

Debunk him point for point like he asked instead of trying to fight back with what is quickly becoming an illigitimate point.

Uh yeah, Clinton's intention was to remove Saddam from power, but in his view it does not mean an invasion. As we have seen under Clinton he prefers low cost solution. Its simple.

And besides, we did ATTACKED them.

Originally posted by deltaboy

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
So, in your mind,

There's no reason to investigate the elections, being so many irregularities occured, and so many laws were brocken?

Many irregularities that the Democrats try to put out in their embarrassment for losing the election on a very thin margin.

Dude, I voted for Bush both times. The Democrats had a legitimate argument on this. Your debunking is weak and flawed because the facts DID come out that the numbers were tampered with and that Gore DID indeed win the election. However, because of the Supreme Court ruling it was a moot point. And conveniently enough September 11th happened just after this announcement was made so it was swept under the rug.

It wasn't an unfounded complaint. It was a legit complaint that was backed up with proof. GW stole the election because of his brother's state. Kind of coinkidinky for sure.

Fair enough, As long as your happy in your reality who am I to judge.
Keep your head in the sand though, because things are going to get complicated for your kind above the dirt.

Well said.

Its only a matter of time until we get our "Solid Evidence" that we rightly deserve.

The people guilty of these crimes will be revealed, i have no doubts about this and im sure all those who know the truth do not doubt this.

Well done Agit8dChop for all your hard work, no one can stop the truth from being told, not even deltaboy.