Did the Deluge ever happen?

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posted on Mar, 31 2007 @ 09:36 PM
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Before I start my post I wan't to make clear something. I'm a cristian but not a practicant of the religion so I don't know nothing about the Bible except little things read here and there on the web.

Every time I hear or read about the deluge/great flood it sticks in my mind the idea of this horrible catastrophe and why it did happen. I know that if I start the thread with a scientific aproach I won't go far. As far as I'm concerned archaeology dissmises the idea of a great upheaval like that because of the missing evidence. No civilization before 3000 B.C.E., no traces of lost cities or... therefore no flood possible. On the other hand, according to geology a worldwide flood is out of the question. Even if all of the ice caps around the world melted, there would still be a substantial amount of exposed modern land. This land would include many of the mountain ranges such as the Alps, the Rocky Mountains, the Tibetan Plateau, etc.... Even if the volume of the planet were to shrink somewhat, the existing volume of water in the ice caps, oceans, atmosphere and biosphere would not cover the entire planet surface.
In other words scientifically is not possible for a global flood to happen. And to be fair and open minded, make sens.

So I've chosen to aproach the subject from onther point of view wich are the myths and the legends around the world. Some time ago I've read in this forum from one of the smods that there is no evidence even oral or folkoric for a dissaster of this dimensions. But is this true? My modest research gave me a total different picture. There is indeed a huge numer of myths and legends world wide about the flood. Ok, I know those are just myths but... so similar, so many elments are almost the same and the cultures where they come from are so far and so distant from each other.

To begin with, here is a list of flood myths I have in my possesion and you can judge by your self:

# Europe

* Greek, Arcadian, Samothrace
* Roman
* Scandinavian, German
* Celtic, Welsh
* Lithuanian, Transylvanian Gypsy
* Turkey

# Near East

* Sumerian
* Egypt, Babylonian, Assyrian, Chaldean, Hebrew, Islamic
* Persian, Zoroastrian

# Africa

* Cameroon
* Masai (East Africa), Komililo Nandi, Kwaya (Lake Victoria)
* Southwest Tanzania, Pygmy, Ababua (northern Zaire), Kikuyu (Kenya), Bakongo (west Zaire), Bachokwe? (southern Zaire), Lower Congo, Basonge, Bena-Lulua (Congo River, southeast Zaire)
* Yoruba (southwest Nigeria), Efik-Ibibio (Nigeria), Ekoi (Nigeria)
* Mandingo (Ivory Coast)

# Asia

* Vogul
* Samoyed (north Siberia)
* Yenisey-Ostyak (north central Siberia), Kamchadale (northeast Siberia)
* Altaic (central Asia), Tuvinian (Soyot) (north of Mongolia)
* Mongolia, Buryat (eastern Siberia)
* Sagaiye (eastern Siberia)
* Russian
* Hindu, Bhil (central India), Kamar (Raipur District, Central India), Assam
* Tamil (southern India)
* Lepcha (Sikkim), Tibet, Singpho (Assam), Lushai (Assam), Lisu (northwest Yunnan, China), Lolo (southwestern China), Jino (southern Yunnan, China), Karen (Burma), Chingpaw (Upper Burma)
* China
* Korea
* Munda (north-central India), Santal (Bengal), Ho (southwestern Bengal)
* Bahnar (Cochin China), Kammu (northern Thailand)
* Andaman Islands (Bay of Bengal)
* Zhuang (China), Sui (southern Guizhou, China), Shan (Burma)
* Tsuwo (Formosa interior), Bunun (Formosa interior), Ami (eastern Taiwan)
* Benua-Jakun (Malay Peninsula), Kelantan (Malay Peninsula), Ifugao (Philippines), Kiangan Ifugao, Atá (Philippines), Mandaya (Philippines), Tinguian (Luzon, Philippines)
* Batak (Sumatra), Nias (an island west of Sumatra), Engano (another island west of Sumatra), Dusun (British North Borneo), Dyak (Borneo), Ot-Danom (Dutch Borneo), Toradja (central Celebes), Alfoor (between Celebes and New Guinea), Rotti (southwest of Timor), Nage (Flores)

# Australia

* Arnhem Land (northern Northern Territory)
* Maung (Goulburn Islands, Arnhem Land), Gunwinggu (northern Arnhem Land)
* Gumaidj (Arnhem Land)
* Manger (Arnhem Land)
* Fitzroy River area (Western Australia)
* Australian, Mount Elliot (coastal Queensland), Western Australia, Andingari (South Australia), Wiranggu (South Australia), Narrinyeri (South Australia), Victoria, Lake Tyres (Victoria), Kurnai (Gippsland, Victoria), southeast Australian
* Maori (New Zealand)

# Pacific Islands

* Kabadi (New Guinea), Valman (northern New Guinea), Mamberao River (Irian Jaya), Samo-Kubo (western Papua New Guinea), Papua New Guinea
* Palau Islands (Micronesia), western Carolines
* New Hebrides, Lifou (one of the Loyalty Islands), Fiji
* Samoa, Nanumanga (Tuvalu, South Pacific), Mangaia (Cook Islands), Rakaanga (Cook Islands), Raiatea (Leeward Group, French Polynesia), Tahiti, Hawaii

# North America

* Innuit, Eskimo (Orowignarak, Alaska), Norton Sound Eskimo, Central Eskimo, Tchiglit Eskimo (Arctic Ocean), Herschel Island Eskimo, Netsilik Eskimo, Greenlander
* Tlingit (southern Alaska coast), Hareskin (Alaska), Tinneh (Alaska and south), Loucheux (Dindjie) (Alaska), Dogrib and Slave (Tinneh tribes), Kaska (northern inland British Columbia), Thompson Indians (British Columbia), Sarcee (Alberta), Tsetsaut
* Haida (Queen Charlotte Is., British Columbia), Tsimshian (British Columbia)
* Kwakiutl (British Columbia)
* Kootenay (southeast British Columbia), Squamish (British Columbia), Bella Coola (British Columbia), Lillooet (Green River, British Columbia), Makah (Cape Flattery, Washington), Klallam (northwest Washington), Skokomish (Washington), Skagit (Washington), Quillayute (Washington), Nisqually (Washington), Twana (Puget Sound, Washington), Kathlamet
* Cascade Mountains
* Spokana, Nez Perce, Cayuse (eastern Washington), Yakima (Washington), Warm Springs (Oregon), Joshua (southern Oregon), Smith River (northern California coast), Wintu (north central California), Maidu (central California), Northern Miwok (central California), Tuleyome Miwok (near Clear Lake, California), Olamentko Miwok (Bodega Bay, California) Ohlone (San Francisco to Monterey, California)
* Kato (Mendocino County, California)
* Shasta (northern California interior), Pomo (north central California), Salinan (California), Yuma (western Arizona, southern California), Havasupai (lower Colorado River)
* Ashochimi (California)
* Yurok (north California coast), Blackfoot (Alberta and Montana), Cree (Canada), Timagami Ojibway (Canada), Chippewa (Ontario, Minnesota, Wisconsin), Ottawa, Menomini (Wisconsin-Michigan border), Cheyenne (Minnesota), Yellowstone, Montagnais (northern Gulf of St. Lawrence), Micmac (eastern Maritime Canada), Algonquin (upper Ottowa River), Lenape (Delaware) (Delaware to New York)
* Cherokee (Great Lakes area; eastern Tennessee)
* Mandan (North Dakota), Lakota
* Choctaw (Mississippi), Natchez (Lower Mississippi)
* Chitimacha (Southern Louisiana)
* Caddo (Oklahoma, Arkansas), Pawnee (Nebraska)
* Navajo (Four Corners area), Jicarilla Apache (northeastern New Mexico)
* Sia (northeast Arizona)
* Acagchemem (near San Juan Capistrano, California), Luiseño (Southern California), Pima (southwest Arizona), Papago (Arizona), Hopi (northeast Arizona), Zuni (New Mexico)


I have to continue with another post coz of the limits in characters...





[edit on 31-3-2007 by Telos]




posted on Mar, 31 2007 @ 09:38 PM
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Not having civilizations does not mean no people. It merely means no writing.

My personal theory is that the flood stories are about the flooding of the continental shelves that was a result of the end of the Ice Age.



posted on Mar, 31 2007 @ 10:16 PM
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The rest of the list:

# Central America

* Tarascan (northern Michoacan, Mexico), Michoacan (Mexico)
* Yaqui (Sonoran, Northern Mexico), Tarahumara (Northern Mexico), Huichol (western Mexico), Cora (east of the Huichols), Tepecano (southeast of the Huichols), Tepehua (eastern Mexico), Toltec (Mexico), Nahua (central Mexico), Tlaxcalan (central Mexico)
* Tlapanec (south central Mexico), Mixtec (northern Oaxaca, Mexico), Zapotec (Oaxaca, southern Mexico), Trique (Oaxaca, southern Mexico)
* Totonac (eastern Mexico)
* Chol (southern Mexico), Tzeltal (Chiapas, southern Mexico), Quiché (Guatemala), Maya (southern Mexico and Guatemala)
* Popoluca (Veracruz, Mexico)
* Nicaragua, Panama
* Carib (Antilles)

# South America

* Acawai (Orinoco), Arekuna (Guyana), Makiritare (Venezuela), Macusi (British Guyana)
* Muysca (Colombia), Yaruro (southern Venezuela)
* Yanomamö (southern Venezuela)
* Tamanaque (Orinoco), Arawak (Guyana), Pamary, Abedery, and Kataushy (Purus R., Brazil), Ipurina (Upper Amazon)
* Jivaro (eastern Ecuador), Shuar (Andes)
* Murato (eastern Ecuador)
* Cañari (Quito, Ecuador)
* Guanca and Chiquito (Peru)
* Ancasmarca (near Cuzco, Peru), Canelos Quechua, Quechua, Inca (Peru), Colla (high Andes)
* Chiriguano (southeast Bolivia)
* Chorote (Eastern Paraguay)
* Eastern Brazil (Rio de Janiero region), Eastern Brazil (Cape Frio region), Caraya (Araguaia River, central Brazil), Coroado (south Brazil)
* Araucania (coastal Chile)
* Toba (northern Argentina)
* Selk'nam (southern tip of Argentina)
* Yamana (Tierra del Fuego)


And the references for this myths are of course the most credible and including the myths themselfs (if you don't mind reading over 150 pages of myths) are to be found here: Flood Stories from Around the World

I've read all this myths carefully and what I've noticed is the same subject, most of the time the same number of persons and the same elements of the story repeated over and over. Now according to the myths collectors this stories refer to a period far back in history. If we were to accept the archaeological reasoning about missing evidences for a civilization priory 3000 B.C.E. than I feel right to use the same archaeology to add that this cultures who gave birth to this myths where far from each other and without any contact. And of course this myths come from a remote past when countries in question didn't have any contact yet with cristianity. So how could have this happened?

We can't accept the global flood because geology tells us that this is impossible. So the only remaining theory is that the flood story is a local flood, of course with cataclismic efects to be rememberd for so long, yet local. But what about the similarity? Why all the stories around the world talk about the same subject?

We know that a scenario Day After Tomorrow type is unlikely to happen coz scientifcally is impossible. It take centuries for a frost like that to develop and descend from polar regions. Also the flood caused by the superstorm or the hurricanes is impossible coz we know that superwaves or tsunamis like that are created only by an earthquake (remember 2004 in South Azia) and a meteorite. So what is with this flood story? Why is so sparsed around the world? Do we know everything about the forces of nature?

I hope a partecipation in this thread and to find some answers that could logicaly explain few of the question marks I used so much above
So bear with me and don't kill the thread.

[edit on 31-3-2007 by Telos]



posted on Apr, 2 2007 @ 11:08 AM
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I’ve always found flood stories interesting, mostly due to the fact they are everywhere in myths! But why is this legend so popular? Well, it could be…

1. Floods are a common disaster around the world. Every civilization has been affected by floods in some form or another. It would be easy to relate a story of a local man or family who had the sharp insight to stay alive during a particularly harsh one.

2. A great flood affected the cradle of civilization, the valley between the Tigris and Euphrates. Since anthropologists believe this area was where civilized man emerged from the Stone Age, it could also be where the first legends emerged as well. It could be that the great flood was actually the two rivers rising and flooding the valley. Noah and his kin were the survivors of this flood. When the waters receded, they found the land decimated with no other survivors. Thus, Noah’s kin reclaimed the entire valley as their own, repopulated, spread out across the globe, and kept the story of the flood as an oral family history.

3. A Jungian archetype. Just like symbols and shapes, the story of the flood is a powerful idea that has spread though mankind’s unconscious like a viral meme. Its source is deep rooted in some basic fear of drowning or the fear of ironically dying in the most life giving of sources, water

Also, let’s not forget that many of the stories of the flood are about God or the gods cleansing the earth. The reason for this cleansing is to wipe out mankind. Why the animals and plants are made to suffer as well is a mystery. And why use water to cleanse the earth? How about fire? Too many thoughts to ponder…



posted on Apr, 2 2007 @ 11:22 AM
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. A great flood affected the cradle of civilization, the valley between the Tigris and Euphrates. Since anthropologists believe this area was where civilized man emerged from the Stone Age,

en.wikipedia.org...




posted on Apr, 3 2007 @ 11:57 PM
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Seen those "flood" stories already. Try reading them. Yes, all of them.

Now divide them. How many of them are actually ancient in origin, first off. That is, that we are certain were collected prior to Christian or Islamic missionaries into the territory they come from? With travel comes cultural cross-pollination. Those stories that don't predate Christian / Islamic contact can usually be thrown out, due to this.

Now we look through what's left. How many of them are actually similar to the Biblical flood story? Many tell a tale of a flood, but floods are pretty common. To match the Deluge story, we need a worldwide flood. Many of what we have after cutting away the post-contact stories are clearly describing local events, or esoteric concepts like the breaking of a mother's water prior to childbirth, or in many cases, a mythical explanation for the existence of water, or a particular river, what have you.

When we are left with genuine stories that describe a global flood, you will find that almost all of them center on the middle east - which for mythological purposes, stretches from the Nile in the West to the Indus in the East. You have four very flood-prone rivers, a large rift valley, and a few inland seas to deal with in this area. Flood stories are going to be crazy common.

It's also a good story. You've got your hero, an angry god, and a catastrophe. Think of it as the 3,000 B.C.E. version of a Sci-Fi original feature film


For there to have been a global flood, there would have to be actual geological evidence of it. First off, there's a hell of a lot of water, and it just doesn't exist. Even if you melted all the ice and pumped all the water out of the crust and mantle both, you'd still have a whole mess of land laying around. We could make Chicago swampy, but we're not going to cover the top of any of the various mount Ararats in the world, much less any of the Andes or Himalayas. Such a worldwide deluge would also leave copious amounts of evidence in the form of identical worldwide silt deposits.

There's also the fact that the story itself about the animals doesn't really work out. First, plenty of animals would have survived without the boat. Seabirds and ducks would rule the land and air, and bull sharks and salmonids would be hte dominant aquatic species. Also take into consideration fragile water species, such as Coral - water deep enough to cover a mountain range would be too deep for sun to reach coral, resulting in the many types of coral going extinct - along with countless other marine organisms that couldn't cope with a deluge of salt water - Or freshwater species that can't handle a similar deluge of salt.

We also deal with terrestrial animals. According to the story, only two of each kind were on board. Genetics does not support this. Even the most inbred animals on earth - cheetahs, giraffes, and humans - are still descended from several thousand individuals at their bottleneck point, not a single pair. The human genetic diversity of sub-Saharan Africa alone knocks the "Descent from Noah" idea right out of the water, no pun intended.

Did the Deluge happen? Afraid not. Although, this is the one time where a cultural artifact can actually be traced to Sumer, without Sitchin butting in!



posted on Apr, 4 2007 @ 10:47 AM
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You have voted TheWalkingFox for the Way Above Top Secret award




posted on Apr, 5 2007 @ 08:53 AM
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Okay, we can pretty much surmise that the flood described by the Bible as a bunch of poppycock. A world covered by water, 2x2 animals, Noah & family repopulating the earth… Never happened.

Still, we have these flood stories. A lot of flood stories. There has to be one central source for a majority of them and I’m guessing that Babylon and the area around the Mediterranean are the culprits.

I’ve already given my theory on the Tigris and Euphrates flooding the fertile valley. Thank you Marduke for the additional info!

But how about the Mediterranean flooding? Essentially it was the heart of the ancient world from the Greeks to the Roman to the Crusades. If the sea did flood it would be an event of biblical proportions. (Pun intended!) Thousands of villages dotting the coast would be destroyed. Boats would be lost in an uncharted sea. The landscape would be forever altered once the waves pulled back. It would be like a nuclear bomb going off in the heart of Europe.

And what about “Noah,” or the other plucky lads from the tales who survived the flood? Were they sailors who survived the flood by the mere good fortune of being on a boat? Or were they farmers who could read the weather and thus moved their family and livestock to the top of a mountain?

There are also many more common themes in these flood stories. From the wraith of the Gods to the repopulation of man by the survivor’s family to the saving of the animals. I think it all points to one source far back in mankind’s past.



posted on Apr, 5 2007 @ 10:19 AM
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the idea i'm comfortable with is that the Flood Story
is just a metaphor for any family/group/tribe/clan,
that their ancestors successfully survived the forces of Nature

the struggle of ancestors to eke an existance and to flourish
also had to involve to some degree, help or assistance from the
spirits/gods of an unseen world , along with luck, good fortune,
ingenuity, intelligence, determination, strength & endurance

all traits found to some degree in the Sumerian & Biblical flood-stories
and universally among all the different & diverse enclaves of peoples
before the printed book popularized the Hebrew version that was included in the Christian Bible...

a story can be true.....but it need not been fact, if that makes sense

thanks



posted on Apr, 5 2007 @ 03:08 PM
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Originally posted by Cowboy Clint
Still, we have these flood stories. A lot of flood stories. There has to be one central source for a majority of them and I’m guessing that Babylon and the area around the Mediterranean are the culprits.


Well... "Floods" would be my guess.



But how about the Mediterranean flooding? Essentially it was the heart of the ancient world from the Greeks to the Roman to the Crusades. If the sea did flood it would be an event of biblical proportions. (Pun intended!) Thousands of villages dotting the coast would be destroyed. Boats would be lost in an uncharted sea. The landscape would be forever altered once the waves pulled back. It would be like a nuclear bomb going off in the heart of Europe.


The Gibraltar strait broke in the Miocene, and the Atlantic flooded the Mediterranean Basin. The Miocene is way before humans. Heck it's before tailless apes, even.

However, a very interesting event DID happen in the span of human existence, regarding the Mediterranean: The Nile Rover switched course to flow into the Mediterranean. Previously the river snaked out across what is now the Sahara, and emptied into the Eastern Atlantic, but a geologic upheaval in the rift valley knocked the Nile into its current course - contributing to Saharan desertification, and putting a very large river into the Mediterranean. I don't know if this would "flood" the sea. If it were, you can bet some humans would have noticed. But it would have vastly predated any of the "classical" civilizations.


There are also many more common themes in these flood stories. From the wraith of the Gods to the repopulation of man by the survivor’s family to the saving of the animals. I think it all points to one source far back in mankind’s past.

How many Fantasy stories rip off Tolkien? It doesn't mean that Middle Earth was a reality, that a three-foot man with furry feet saved the world by tossing a trinket into a volcano. It means it's a damn good story and other storytellers are trying to recreate it in their own way.



posted on Apr, 5 2007 @ 03:09 PM
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Dah, double-posted


[edit on 5-4-2007 by TheWalkingFox]



posted on Apr, 5 2007 @ 03:53 PM
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Originally posted by Cowboy Clint
Okay, we can pretty much surmise that the flood described by the Bible as a bunch of poppycock. A world covered by water, 2x2 animals, Noah & family repopulating the earth… Never happened.


Whoa whoa whoa, hold on just a minute there.

The Flood in the Bible may not have been quite as severe as is stated, but it did indeed happen. Theres modern evidence to support this. I will get to it.

There may not have been an Ark, and the guy who built it may or may not have been named Noah, Nuh, or Upnatzim or whatever the Babylonian name is. He may or may not have had 3 sons, and they may or may not have been named Japheth, Shem, and Ham. And they may or may not have brought livestock aboard. We dont know any of this to be true OR false.

However, we DO know that a Flood occured, not just any Flood, but one that affected the entire Earth in some ways. It may not have covered the entire Earth, it may not have been directly sent by God, but it did happen. Theres archaeological proof of such.

I cant cite any of that archeological proof, but heres from geographical evidence. Take a look at the Black Sea, and the Eastern Mediterraniean, and also take a look at the Caspian Sea. Notice how thin the land is between the Persian Gulf's mouth, and the Caspian Sea's beginning, north of Iran. Notice the small waterway that allows water from the Med to seep into the Black Sea, and vice versa. Before the Flood, this was seperate! Not connected. Some of the isles of Greece used to be connected pre-Flood, there was more Greek land present, which is now scattered isles.

The Black Sea contains a type of water that cannot sustain normal marine life. It's a type of water that lacks enough oxygen. This water goes from the Black Sea floor, all the way to about 100 feet below the sea surface, or was that meters? Regardless. Above that, theres a thin layer of habitable water with the proper oxygen levels. Anything that lives in the Black Sea live in that top layer of water. The rest of the water contains something that preseerves ancient vessels and artifacts.



posted on Apr, 5 2007 @ 04:17 PM
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many cultures also have myths on the attainment of fire from the gods. normally they involve a relay race in which one animal or deity passes on the fire to another animal or deity and it then ends up in the hands of humanity

does this mean we stole fire from the gods?



posted on Apr, 5 2007 @ 06:55 PM
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Originally posted by runetang
Notice how thin the land is between the Persian Gulf's mouth, and the Caspian Sea's beginning, north of Iran. .

yeah I see what you mean
the only thing in the way is one of the largest mountain ranges in Eurasia
the southern Caucasus


you clearly have a personal belief in this area that events happened as the bible says they did, but you are making posts in ignorance to push your agenda
and everyone can see that
answer this question
are you a christian ?



posted on Apr, 5 2007 @ 08:58 PM
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Uh, i have no agenda to push, just history.

Most leading experts, most, agree there was a large catastrophic flood that affected multiple peoples in different places simultaineously.

That means nothing about an ark, noah, or anything related to the biblical story.

So you sir are clearly anti-christian and have an anti-christian agenda, because you are simply stating that b/c im this or that, that i have an agenda to push.

No, you're the one trying to disprove something that 'most of' the leading scientific community believes is true; that there was a big ass flood at some point. And because I'm Christian.. that makes me biased? Okay, every culture in the world that a person reigns from with such a story, and everyone from a religion that has such a story is wrong because Marduk says so. Despite all the evidence, and all the stories that all the peoples of the world from that time period share. Marduk says so. Thats all im saying.

Now spin THAT into Christian propaganda so you can throw it down?

PS - you cut the map before it shows the persian gulf. The caucasus mountains are not in the way, those are the mountains that seperate the Black Sea from the Caspian, not the Persian from the Caspian, the Persian isnt in your picture of referrence.

Anyone who looks at that pic with an open mind will wonder where the geography, coasts, island chains, and oceans look as they do. Greece looks like a bunch of "bits and pieces", and wouldnt you know, right past there is where the Med connects to the Black Sea. you didnt even mention the scientific, true evidence that shows theres something very unusual about the Black Sea's make-up. Read about it before attempting to write off as propaganda, especially when your anti-flood, anti-christian position is blatantly clear, and I have no christian agenda that you wish to pin on me. I'm standing up for history, you're trying to disprove it .. through, no means? Until you have evidence to the contrary, maybe you shouldnt try to argue a .. point, if thats what you call that?

Link to the Black Sea Info: The Black Sea
Black Sea Deluge, Wikipedia



In a series of expeditions, a team of marine archeologists led by Robert Ballard identified what appeared to be ancient shorelines, freshwater snail shells, drowned river valleys, tool-worked timbers, and man-made structures in roughly 300 feet (100 m) of water off the Black Sea coast of modern Turkey. Radiocarbon dating of freshwater mollusk remains indicated an age of about 7,000 years.

According to a report in New Scientist magazine (4 May 2002, p. 13), the researchers found an underwater delta south of the Bosporus. There was evidence for a strong flow of fresh water out of the Black Sea in the 8th millennium BC.



The hypothesis remains an active subject of debate among archaeologists.


But dont tell Marduk that; he already knows the facts.


[edit on 4/5/2007 by runetang]



posted on Apr, 5 2007 @ 09:22 PM
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Take with you seven [a] of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and two of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, and also seven of every kind of bird, male and female,

so it isn't 1+1=2 of each for the animals. it's only 1+1=2 of each unclean (male and female)
the rest are 7x2=14 of every clean (male and female), and 7x2=14 of every bird (male and female)

Adam was originally known as "The Adam" (plural).

The first humans on EARTH were a group known as The Adam" not a singular entity.

This lays to rest the idea that the genealogies are speaking specifically about single individuals, fixes the puzzle over where "Cain got his wife," and solves the riddle of species propagation following a global flood.

Probably, somebody messed up the exact number of Arks involved in the mission, as one Ark of the dimensions described could not contain the number of animals listed.




[edit on 5-4-2007 by undo]



posted on Apr, 5 2007 @ 10:54 PM
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Originally posted by runetang
Uh, i have no agenda to push, just history.

Most leading experts, most, agree there was a large catastrophic flood that affected multiple peoples in different places simultaineously.

crap they do
perhaps you can give us a list of who you think are leading experts


Originally posted by runetang
That means nothing about an ark, noah, or anything related to the biblical story.

its not a bibical story its a mesopotamian one


Originally posted by runetang
So you sir are clearly anti-christian and have an anti-christian agenda, because you are simply stating that b/c im this or that, that i have an agenda to push.

none of your pretend facts has any basis in reality
as they are all biblically based its quite clear what your agenda is, this forum isn't for religious agendas
its for facts about history


Originally posted by runetang
No, you're the one trying to disprove something that 'most of' the leading scientific community believes is true; that there was a big ass flood at some point. And because I'm Christian.. that makes me biased?

the leading scientific community whould be who ?
church of england ?
the catholics ?


Originally posted by runetang
Okay, every culture in the world that a person reigns from with such a story, and everyone from a religion that has such a story is wrong because Marduk says so. Despite all the evidence, and all the stories that all the peoples of the world from that time period share. Marduk says so. Thats all im saying.

you are saying that religious stories are facts
so God lives in an invisible place in the sky and when you die you get wings and a harp and join a choir
have you heard yourself


Originally posted by runetang
Now spin THAT into Christian propaganda so you can throw it down?

you already span it into christian propoganda at the same time you were telling us all that you're not biased



Originally posted by runetang
PS - you cut the map before it shows the persian gulf. The caucasus mountains are not in the way, those are the mountains that seperate the Black Sea from the Caspian, not the Persian from the Caspian, the Persian isnt in your picture of referrence.

ah yes you're right
hows this picture

oh look
mountains



Originally posted by runetang
Anyone who looks at that pic with an open mind will wonder where the geography, coasts, island chains, and oceans look as they do. Greece looks like a bunch of "bits and pieces", and wouldnt you know, right past there is where the Med connects to the Black Sea. you didnt even mention the scientific, true evidence that shows theres something very unusual about the Black Sea's make-up

en.wikipedia.org...

The Black Sea is the world’s largest meromictic basin where the deep waters do not mix with the upper layers of water that get oxygen from the atmosphere. As a result, over 90% of the deeper Black Sea volume is anoxic water that lacks oxygen.

this is evidence of what exactly ?

The current hydrochemical configuration is primarily controlled by basin topography and fluvial inputs, which result in a strongly stratified vertical structure and a positive water balance. The upper layers are generally cooler, less dense and less salty than the deeper waters, as they are fed by large fluvial systems, whereas the deep waters originate from the warm, salty waters of the Mediterranean. This influx of dense water from Mediterranean is balanced by an outflow of fresher Black Sea surface-water into the Marmara Sea, maintaining the stratification and salinity levels

so nothing to do with a flood then

Originally posted by runetang
. Read about it before attempting to write off as propaganda, especially when your anti-flood, anti-christian position is blatantly clear, and I have no christian agenda that you wish to pin on me. I'm standing up for history, you're trying to disprove it .. through, no means? Until you have evidence to the contrary, maybe you shouldnt try to argue a .. point, if thats what you call that?

uhuh
you have no christian agenda so when you said

because I'm Christian.. that makes me biased

you were what
lying or stating a fact




In a series of expeditions, a team of marine archeologists led by Robert Ballard identified what appeared to be ancient shorelines, freshwater snail shells, drowned river valleys, tool-worked timbers, and man-made structures in roughly 300 feet (100 m) of water off the Black Sea coast of modern Turkey. Radiocarbon dating of freshwater mollusk remains indicated an age of about 7,000 years.

According to a report in New Scientist magazine (4 May 2002, p. 13), the researchers found an underwater delta south of the Bosporus. There was evidence for a strong flow of fresh water out of the Black Sea in the 8th millennium BC.



The hypothesis remains an active subject of debate among archaeologists.


But dont tell Marduk that; he already knows the facts.

well he knows a lot more about it than you do if you think theat Robert Ballard came up with the black sea flood theory when it was actually ryan and pitman and it has not been accepted by anyone at all except for a lot of god botherers like you who need it to prove that the Bible apprently lied when it said there was a global flood to the height of mountains
way to go proving a religious lie
incidentally freshwater molluscs absorb calcium from the surrounding environment so radio carbon dating them proves nothing
but you knew that right
because you don't have an agenda

now do you actually know anything about this subject because so far you've just made an ass of yoruself proving the Bible was a lie and claiming that there is flat ground between the caspian and the persian gulf
I mean fair enough I understand that you have no faith whatever in your god so you feel a need to sound off like you have a pair but as I already stated
this isn't the religous forum
its the ancient history one
a subject that you apparently know nothing about
and the way you are carrying on
you never will



posted on Apr, 5 2007 @ 11:19 PM
link   
To give you some idea, that Ark would be busting at the
seams if it tried to fit that many animals on it. They'd
be packed in there tighter than sardines.

It's more likely that what happened was, somebody
singularized The Adam and The Eve, which were both
known as The Adam in some places (you know, kinda
like how masculine voice is used in some instances but
it pertains to everyone?) . The Adam was the first race
of humans on the earth. Who knows how many people
they contained or how many races.

These are broken down further into the geneaologies
leading up to Noah (who was probably an entire group of
people of several different races, all inter-related by birth
and marriage), which gives you the impression that they
are references to single individuals who were the patriarchs
of their family line.

It's likely that Cain was an entire group of people as well,
not just one and the same with Abel. All this has been
condensed into reader's digest type stories, because the
principles involved are the focal point, rather than the
details of the mundane aspects. How God dealt with one
group of people vs. another, speaks more deliberately
about what God was trying to say, rather than the number
of people involved.

For example, one was an agricultural society. The other was
a shepherding society. These were probably whole groups
of people who were related to each other by blood, amongst
whom war broke out over petty jealousies and such, and the
end of which resulted in the destruction of the shepherding
society and the forced migration of the agricultural society
to a new territory.

They only incorporated what was necessary to get the
point across, and to fill in where needed, the genealogy
from the first humans to Noah to Abraham to the Messiah.
There's no telling how many pieces of pertinent information
we might find useful today, that are now lost in those stories
because of their brevity and the nature of the reaccounting.
Perhaps it was a matter of necessity or perhaps it was the
style of their day. Either way, the message seemed to be
the focal point, and the particulars were not given the same
latitude unless they pertained to something specific God
was trying to explain. That's the impression I get from it,
anyway.

It wasn't important if there were ten Cains and twelve Abels
and 15 Arks. The important part was what they were
supposed to learn from the stories of Cain and Abel and
Noah as regards their interaction with the Divine.



[edit on 5-4-2007 by undo]



posted on Apr, 6 2007 @ 07:41 AM
link   


It's more likely that what happened was, somebody
singularized The Adam and The Eve, which were both
known as The Adam in some places (you know, kinda
like how masculine voice is used in some instances but
it pertains to everyone?) . The Adam was the first race
of humans on the earth. Who knows how many people
they contained or how many races.


no
its more likely that once again you are amking it up as you go along and deciding which sources to ignore
here is a verifiable source that sinks your ship adam and all
psd.museum.upenn.edu...

adam [HABITATION] (37x: Ur III, Old Babylonian) wr. a2-dam "habitation" Akk. namû = "living in the steppe, steppe-dweller".

oh look
"Adam" is another Sumerian word stolen by a race who didn't read sumerian too well
and it isn't a race of people
it isn't even the name of a person
its just a name for someone who lives on the steppe
which is probably why its associated with Eden which you already know means "steppe"
how easily you forget when you arent interested in the facts


you are aware of th ancient proverb are you not ?

a scribe who does not speak Sumerian, what kind of Scribe is he

obviously in the case of the Bible
hes a bad one
in case of your redacted history based on whatever source you want to co opt
hes a she and she is terrible



posted on Apr, 6 2007 @ 08:20 AM
link   
So God created The Steppe (Eden) Dwellers, which is
the older translation (akkadian), since the newer one
(the babylonian one) is Habitation, I think The Steppe
(Eden) Dwellers is more legit. How soon you forget.


[edit on 6-4-2007 by undo]





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