Originally posted by Mirthful Me
Two going on three pages of Secret Societies finest and nary a peep from the naysayers? This will not do... No not at all... Bring on the large wooden spoons, for there is a great pot to be stirred...

Festive Board Monkeys, not just for being a member of the "Kraft" anymore...

That's exactly what I just got through asking.. I thought Anti-Masons wanted discussion, apparently not.

Originally posted by Mirthful Me
Two going on three pages of Secret Societies finest and nary a peep from the naysayers? This will not do... No not at all... Bring on the large wooden spoons, for there is a great pot to be stirred...

Festive Board Monkeys, not just for being a member of the "Kraft" anymore...

Well Mirthful Me, in the interest of enlightenment, if you really want, you can pretend to be an anti-mason nay-sayer fight-picker.

Through my studies, I have to say that you may not be wrong in saying that. I have always basically taken on the mentality of, "I believe what I believe and let others believe as they will as well." I don't try to force my opinions on anyone. I may argue with a person about beliefs, but never do I tell someone, "Well, I'm right and your wrong." It sort of goes against my code of conduct. I may say, "Well, I don't think you are correct." However,I never tell anyone that they are wrong, because, honestly, I don't know.

[edit on 3-4-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]
I appoligze to Speaker of Truth for not getting the quote funtion right.

SoT

The very point you raise about religious beliefs, "let others believe as they will as well" is just the attitude Free Masonry teaches or rather encourages.

I also see, and have from the first seen, why an outsider could say maonry is a religion. Personally I have been tought and have found that it is not. While a moral phyliosophy is tought, there is no mention of salvation. We are tought that we will be held accountable for our actions, all of our actions. At every degree we are encouaged to participate in our original faith, be a good member of society and a good member of our family.

I too have hurd in every lodge I've ever been in that discussion of both relgion and politics is expressly forbidin.

[edit on 3-4-2007 by Masonic Student]

[edit on 3-4-2007 by Masonic Student]

But also, please keep in mind, that this is also for questions and answers about Masonry.
Not just dispelling the myths or defending the craft.
So, feel free to inquire.

Originally posted by wu kung
But also, please keep in mind, that this is also for questions and answers about Masonry.
Not just dispelling the myths or defending the craft.
So, feel free to inquire.

I wish someone would ask something.

I have a question. Is it true that Manly P. Hall wasn't a full fledged Mason when he wrote many of the books about Masonry?

To all the brothers here and anyone intrested.

Simlply out of curiosity, how many hold to the "from the operative" theory and how many hold to the "from the english templars" theory? Or a third or fourth theory for that matter? I'm refering to the origens of Free Masonry.

As for me I've come around to the "from the english templars" theory myself.

To carry on with Masonry being a religion, I believe Masonic Student hit it head on..

It is a philosophy.. or rather a collection of philosophies..

That philosophy is rather simply summed up as "Be a good man, citizen" and being a good man covers family, be a good husband, father, brother and son. Citizen covers your nations law of the land, uphold your nation, defend its people and abide by the rules. Also another huge part of Masonry is express self sacrifice through aiding your fellow man and community, be it through many charities.

And for the many who say men don't join groups to do charity.. I honest to god can think of nothing more fulfilling then being in the kitchen doing dishes with my brothers till 3am supporting the Spaghetti Dinner or any other charity we host. There is connections among your fellow man at all levels, and it takes a mature man to see that it is not best to remain isolated, as it breads malcontent with your life, a feeling of unaccomplishments.. it is best to connect fully with man and community in brother hood, charity and if your really into the craft, the furthering your knowledge in the many philosophies attached to the craft..

Masonry may be many things, it may be a school of thought, a philosophical approach to life, a life style even, but religion does not exactly define it well enough.

Originally posted by Masonic Student
To all the brothers here and anyone intrested.

Simlply out of curiosity, how many hold to the "from the operative" theory and how many hold to the "from the english templars" theory? Or a third or fourth theory for that matter? I'm refering to the origens of Free Masonry.

As for me I've come around to the "from the english templars" theory myself.

Well, while I am not a Mason, I have already stated what I think. I think it dates back to at least the Templars. Actually, I think it probably goes back further, but many Masons seem to disagree.

[edit on 3-4-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by Rockpuck

It is a philosophy.. or rather a collection of philosophies..

Yeah, everything I have read about Masonry would imply that. Actually, it seems to me, from an outsiders point of view looking in, to be a mixture of different spiritual beliefs systems. Which, this, unfortunately, also probably accounts for why Masonry receives so much flak from Christians and such. Most Christians frown on syncretic belief systems. Look at how they respond to "New Age" ideologies.

I wish someone would ask something.

I have a question. Is it true that Manly P. Hall wasn't a full fledged Mason when he wrote many of the books about Masonry?

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere (sorry folks, I don't have the source material) that he wasn't a full-fledged mason until his fifties. Years after he wrote many of his masonic themed books.


As for the origins of masonry, I'm going with the operative theory.
The idea of learned builders creating great works that pre-date even the great Egyptian dynasties, and passing their knowledge, secrets and symbols down through the ages...well, that just has an air of romanticism that really appeals to me.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
To carry on with Masonry being a religion, I believe Masonic Student hit it head on..

It is a philosophy.. or rather a collection of philosophies..

Indeed. And it is the fact that the philosophy is based on Judeo-Christian moral values that drives the confusion. Despite the fact that freemasonry is open to all men who profess a belief in a 'Supreme Being', it was originally a Christian organization. All the lessons taught within freemasony are illustrated by passages and excerpts from the Old Testament, but are broad enough to appeal to a wider audience.

It is a difficult sometimes to draw a distinction between the religion and the 'supporting material', which is what freemasonry is, really. The lessons are broad enough to be interpreted in a number of different ways, which is its power and why it works so well for so many diverse individuals.

Unfortunately that broad interpretation means it can be easily twisted and misinterpreted, and that is what we see anti-masons doing. Not, for the most part, ATS posters, but the people who set up poisonous web sites for the sole purpose of discrediting the Craft.

I'm reminded of a poem by a famous freemason:

If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools...

...Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And--which is more--you'll be a Man, my son!

OK I have a few basic questions.

Why do you have to believe in a higher power to become a Mason ?
Why is does secrecy still surround aspects of Masonry ?
Is Free Masonry and Masonry the same organisation ?

Surely if there still wasn't a blanket of secrecy chances are many of the conspiracy theories wouldn't exist. I have never known a mason in person little alone have them cause me any trouble. A thanks in advance for answering my questions.

Originally posted by xpert11
OK I have a few basic questions.

Why do you have to believe in a higher power to become a Mason ?
Why is does secrecy still surround aspects of Masonry ?
Is Free Masonry and Masonry the same organisation ?

Surely if there still wasn't a blanket of secrecy chances are many of the conspiracy theories wouldn't exist. I have never known a mason in person little alone have them cause me any trouble. A thanks in advance for answering my questions.

To take them in order.

The reason for the requirement of a belief in a higher power is that we depend on a man's "word" being good. Without a belief in a higher power outside this reality then there is nothing holding him to that "word"

There really is no secrecy left, if you substitute the word "privacy" instead it would be more accurate. We so swear by our own God to keep the secrets of masonry but they are readily avalible on the internet. But we do so out of tradition and most of us take our oaths seriously. For example what is said in lodge is really only the business of the members, sort of like what you talk about at home is noone else's business but yours.

Both free masonry and masonry as used here are really just short hand versions of the full name of the order in N. C. it is Anchient Free and Accepted Masons, in some states it is Free and acceped Free Masons.

I do sertainly agree with you the secrecy lablel is a problem, but it is not likely to go away any time soon. We will keep our traditions, all we can do is try and adress the misconceptions at forums like this. Convincing people that it a matter of privacy not secrecy is like trying to prove a negative.

[edit on 4-4-2007 by Masonic Student]

mod edit; misc. spelling/punctuation

[edit on 4/4/2007 by benevolent tyrant]

It's almost Easter - all the Anti's are in church getting more "dirt" on us to post here about Albert Pike and Lucifer.

It's the calm before the storm

Obviously the anits arn't intrested in this tread. That may or may not be a good thhing but it is interesting.

I'm glad to see this is working so far.

I for one (because that's one of the main reasons I started this thread) do hope to attract some anti-masons to this thread.
I would like to sit and discuss (not argue) the topic from both our points of view.
Hopefully, we can either calm some of the hate, dispel some of the misconception, or if nothing else, have them walk away with some food for thought.

Remember brothers, no matter how inflammatory their statements may be, govern yourselves accordingly.

Originally posted by Masonic Student
Obviously the anits arn't intrested in this tread. That may or may not be a good thhing but it is interesting.

I'm glad to see this is working so far.

It definitely shows their true motives. All of their claims that they "want discussion" is bunk. All most anti-Mason's want is a pulpit to spread their hateful drivel.



[edit on 4-4-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Alright, well, you can't honestly say that it is the specific motive of all anti-masons, that's just not fair.
Many of them, perhaps, a handful of them, almost certainly, but all of them, I highly doubt it.

Remember, when we do attract some antis here, I want them treated with respect.
The more hateful their words are, the more kindness I want showed to them, because nothing perpetuates ignorance and spite more, than sinking to it's level.

Originally posted by corsig
It's almost Easter - all the Anti's are in church getting more "dirt" on us to post here about Albert Pike and Lucifer.

It's the calm before the storm

I always tell them that Lucifer is the bright and morning star...and them tell them that Jesus said in Revelation the he was the bright and morning star so whats you point....this usually shuts them up for a while.