The Lasting Effects of Slavery

So is it politically incorrect to states crimes blacks commit against whites? Thought it would be..

Like.. in Cincinnati when blacks rioted in the street (burned the only black owned supermarket in the neighborhood.... ) dragging whites out of cars and beating them in the streets? ....... all because a white police officer killed a black teenager who ran from them into a dark ally and pretended to have a gun..

Rational indeed.

We can all find examples of races fighting.. all sides are guilty.. black riots and gang fights with Koreans in LA? Why all the needless bickering.. it perpetuates the cycle.

Originally posted by CSIfan
JM,

Well, we better start lining them up and get the "backpacks full of cash" ready, because Master's children have found another way to have a slave. There are millions of slaves here, they are paid a token salary and they live in poverty and fear.

Unskilled workers never have, and never will, be paid the same wages as those with skills. There will always be social classes, no mater what form of economy you have. America is great because you can change your social class by educating yourself and working hard.

Why are you spreading hatred and calling people "Master's children?"

[edit on 31-3-2007 by Johnmike]

Originally posted by truthseeka
You have NO IDEA how...foolish it sounds that I hate white people more than slaves who had this stuff done to them. That slaves subjected to this treatment were HAPPY about it is even MORE foolish.

Oh, accuser of "linguistic gymnastics", I didn't say anything about "hate" (a freudian slip, perhaps?) nor did I compare you to slaves who "had this stuff done to them". NOR did I say the slaves who were subjected to this treatment were happy.

From where did you pull these gems?

You are awarded the Gold Medal in linguistic gymnastics! I could never compete for I play by the rules and you cheat! I use your own words and quotes to make comments on. I don't fabricate something you never said and call you foolish for saying it!

JohnMike...

Were you being sarcastic with the "pay a living slave a billion dollars?" Because the slaves we're talking about here don't fit the bill.

The children CPS kidnaps and the women and children in places like Israel would qualify, though. But, good luck giving them a bil. People who are CAUGHT involved in this don't even get PUNISHED! (cough, Dyncorp, cough).

Originally posted by truthseeka
JohnMike...

Were you being sarcastic with the "pay a living slave a billion dollars?" Because the slaves we're talking about here don't fit the bill.

There are no living survivors of legal slavery in America. So... I say that anyone legally born into slavery or sold by African slave traders should be paid a billion dollars each.

Basically, there's no one alive to pay!

Originally posted by Johnmike

Originally posted by truthseeka
JohnMike...

Were you being sarcastic with the "pay a living slave a billion dollars?" Because the slaves we're talking about here don't fit the bill.

There are no living survivors of legal slavery in America.

So... I say that anyone legally born into slavery or sold by African slave traders should be paid a billion dollars each.

Basically, there's no one alive to pay!

Yup. That's what I thought...:shk:

I have been quietly reading the last few pages of the thread. And, I have to shake my head on this one. I wonder how those who disrespected the past ancestors of Black people would feel if the tables were turned? I bet it wouldn't feel good to have a mob of people in the midst of a pogrom spewing out a lack of empathy at every turn--especially if it denigrated their ancestors and their contributions to American society.

I always say, you'll never lived until you've had a group of posters denigrate everything about your heritage. And then to top it off, say that they don't care. :shk:

Oh yes, it is very relevant. Because as a Black person, a discussion of slavery intimately connects me with my ancestors, what they went through and how they survived the treachery of the American government and the citizens who supported the institution of human trafficking.

And supported it they did: through laws, ettiquette, social customs and norms, values and culture. Not only did some citizens of the United States--from all classes made money off the backs of African labor, they reveled in it and were quite insensitive as some posters are today in this thread. And this insensitivity continues to be perpetuated by word and deed in the same manner.

The sentiment hasn't changed. Only the language has differed. Instead of the blatant denegration that undermined the humanity of Black people back during the times of slavery, the language is covert and coldly polite befitting a discussion now. The same dehumanization continues through ridicule, nonchalance and indifference. And that is a pity. It says a lot of about the mindset of not only the citizens of America, but a portion of society who would rather go through life without feeling anything for their fellow citizens of the United States. The glibness communicated about slavery only conveys a lack of character and conscience.

And it gets celebrated by the very people who don't give a damn. They pat those with indifference on their backs and give them a ticker tape parade!?!

The pain hasn't changed as well. The descendents of slaves still carry the burdens and stigmas of their ancestors. They still have to endure the venom and the lack of conscience from the "children of Slave masters". And they still have to watch as the same companies today continue to profit from their ill gotten gains. There is actually a list of companies that are still in business who insured slaves. And yet, no one cares because "slavery was a thing of the past".

I'm glad that CSIfan has defied those who "don't care" and "cannot see" (with their cynical and derogatory talk that still cuts to the bone).

The pain still lives, you know. It lives in the laws that are in present society. It lives in the rants of the people who don't care and would want not to care about their fellow human beings. And of course, it lives through the lack of empathy toward acknowledging the contributions and suffering made by a portion of people who inhabit America.

All I can say is that I know that those who denigrate my ancestors will not feel shame or guilt for what they say because they don't want to feel guilt. Instead, they would rather wallow in their self-centeredness and their indifference to those who have suffered. And because of that indifference, they continue to perpetuate injustice to the point of harshly ignoring the past and further adding detriment to the future.

If you are that indifferent, don't react when someone denigrates your ancestors and their contributions. Don't say one word. Do not complain. And take responsibility for it. Because with such talk, you've encouraged it. :shk:

I have more to say later, but I'd like to gather my thoughts a bit more.

[edit on 31-3-2007 by ceci2006]

For anyone who is interested, I highly recommend watching this 45 minute documentary. I plan on authoring a thread on it at some point, but I thought I would point a few members in this direction, as I feel it is certainly called for. If you are going to watch it, watch it. To fully understand and grasp what is being said, you need to watch it all.

Quite an eye opening experience.

A Class Divided

Brown Eye/Blue Eye Experiment

In the wake of the assassination of Martin Luther King, Jr., Elliot developed a simple exercise that explored the nature of racism and prejudice.

Elliott's method for exploring racism in the context of an all-white classroom consisted of dividing her students into two groups on the basis of eye color, blue or brown (those with other eye colors were assigned to the group that most closely matched their own.)

On the first day, Elliott told her students that possessing blue eyes indicated superiority in intelligence and conferred extra classroom privileges while having brown eyes indicated inferiority. Quickly, the students of the "superior" color began to oppress those of the "inferior" color, while those of the "inferior" color exhibited negative feelings of self-loathing and fear.

The next day, Elliott reversed the exercise, telling the students that her statements the previous day were untrue, and that the reverse situation now prevailed. The same children who had been oppressed the day before quickly took on the oppressing role, and vice versa.

en.wikipedia.org...

Whether you agree or disagree, or you are the victim or offender, this video will surely open your eyes and teach you a thing or two.

I know it did for me.

I presented this in my workshop last week and it was welcomed with open arms. I had a diverse group, and all parties were equally accepting.

Jane Elliott is quite the lady. ...Just don't tell her that.

[edit on 3/31/2007 by chissler]

I suppose I could lie and say I do care, but I don't. I don't know you and I don't know your ancestors. Why the hell should I care? By the same token, I expect you don't give a damn about me and mine. And I still don't care. Why? Because I don't rely on other people to decide how to feel about myself or what I will do in life or how far I will go in it.

My ancestors suffered just as slaves did. They labored under the czar, et al, and scraped for their living when times were tough. They were beaten if they didn't do what they were supposed to do. They were chained to the land because they had to do something to put food on the table and there were no alternatives. Did the czar give a poop? Hell no.

The difference between you and me is that I accept history as history and leave it where it belongs - in the past. You seem to revel in reliving it, reconstituting your misery ad nauseum. It's time to puke the cud or swallow it.

What happens when you keep picking at your own scabs? You bleed, but no one else gives a crap. Welcome to the human race. If you don't like it, there's plenty of ways to leave it.

The same goes for living in this country. If you don't like it here, leave. No one is stopping you.

Frankly, we're sick of the snivelling. It's boring and you're playing to an audience of one, yourselves. The rest of us stopped giving a crap years ago. The boy who cried wolf knows why, and so does the nagging housewife.

Originally posted by ceci2006
I have been quietly reading the last few pages of the thread. And, I have to shake my head on this one. I wonder how those who disrespected the past ancestors of Black people would feel if the tables were turned? I bet it wouldn't feel good to have a mob of people in the midst of a pogrom spewing out a lack of empathy at every turn--especially if it denigrated their ancestors and their contributions to American society.

You shake your head all the time, this is not a new behavior of yours.

The tables are turned in every discussion about white/black relations. Those of us who are here to truly learn new perspectives, and understandings, and make an honest effort to better ourselves and our environment, have to bear the continual degeneration of our ancestors as all being slave owning, slavery propagating white folk.

I suggest you stop shaking that head, so that maybe your brain can have a rest, to better understand your own shortcomings, concerning these discussions.

I always say, you'll never lived until you've had a group of posters denigrate everything about your heritage. And then to top it off, say that they don't care. :shk:

Can't comment on what you 'say' outside of this written medium, but I'll take a couple links of where you 'always said' anything but your favorite word 'deflection'.

Oh yes, it is very relevant. Because as a Black person, a discussion of slavery intimately connects me with my ancestors, what they went through and how they survived the treachery of the American government and the citizens who supported the institution of human trafficking.

As it does me and mine.

And supported it they did: through laws, ettiquette, social customs and norms, values and culture. Not only did some citizens of the United States--from all classes made money off the backs of African labor, they reveled in it and were quite insensitive as some posters are today in this thread. And this insensitivity continues to be perpetuated by word and deed in the same manner.

I wish you could really see that alot of insensitive comments derive from the words and actions between individuals. Everything you've said is as relevant to you as it is to anyone else.

...And that is a pity. It says a lot of about the mindset of not only the citizens of America, but a portion of society who would rather go through life without feeling anything for their fellow citizens of the United States. The glibness communicated about slavery only conveys a lack of character and conscience.

Of course these white posters don't care about their fellow citizens, that's what white are all about, themselves.

Perhaps you should listen to what to say, and follow your own rules of communication, and understand people don't want to be told how they should feel, or that what they fell is wrong because it doesn't fit the way you feel.

And it gets celebrated by the very people who don't give a damn. They pat those with indifference on their backs and give them a ticker tape parade!?!

I don't see any celebration. Any supporting evidence to this delusion?

I'm glad that CSIfan has defied those who "don't care" and "cannot see" with their cynical and derogatory talk that still cuts to the bone.

An implication from you, trying to label people with differing feelings as an attack on your pain.

[qoute]The pain still lives, you know. It lives in the laws that are in present society. It lives in the rants of the people who don't care and would want not to care about their fellow human beings. And of course, it lives through the lack of empathy toward acknowledging the contributions and suffering made by a portion of people who inhabit America.

Noone has said the pain isn't there. But of course to realise that, would put a hamper on your roll. I don't think you know what 'empathy' really means.

All I can say is that I know that those who denigrate my ancestors will not feel shame or guilt for what they say because they don't want to feel guilt.

Right back at ya.

Instead, they would rather wallow in their self-centeredness and their indifference to those who have suffered. And because of that indifference, they continue to perpetuate injustice to the point of harshly ignoring the past and further adding detriment to the future.

If you are that indifferent, don't react when someone denigrates your ancestors and their contributions. Don't say one word. Do not complain. And take responsibility for it. Because with such talk, you've encouraged it. :shk:

Your really need some rest.

Originally quoted by Tea

Frankly, we're sick of the snivelling. It's boring and you're playing to an audience of one, yourselves. The rest of us stopped giving a crap years ago. The boy who cried wolf knows why, and so does the nagging housewife.

You left a person out of your tirade, my dear: the sniveling, egotistical, racist bigot.



[edit on 31-3-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally quoted by nextguyinline

Your [sic] really need some rest.

All I can say is that you're the one who needs some rest. I understand.

You're frustrated. You're sick and tired of people of color who actually can speak for themselves and defend their heritage instead of lying down and taking it.

I'm sorry you still have a phobia about black people. I surely hope that you find some peace to quell your concerns because you're sounding a bit defensive there. Maybe some racial sensitivity training might help.


[edit on 31-3-2007 by ceci2006]

We are not here to discuss one another.

The Lasting Effects of Slavery

Discuss the topic at hand, or do not discuss at all.

Let's do our best here people.

Originally posted by ceci2006
You're frustrated. You're sick and tired of people of color who actually can speak for themselves and defend their heritage instead of lying down and taking it.

Just sick and tired of one. I applaud one's ability to defend their heritage. Your intent at it's heart, is just, it's the delusional wrappings that you present it with, that I take issue with.

I'm sorry you still have a phobia about black people. I surely hope that you find some peace to quell your concerns because you're sounding a bit defensive there. Maybe some racial sensitivity training might help.

Pretty sure I don't have any 'Black people' phobias, but I'm all ears, since I read these threads for personal growth.

I'll attend those sensitivity classes with you. I'll even share my notes.


[edit on 31-3-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by nextguyinline
Just sick and tired of one. I applaud one's ability to defend their heritage. Your intent at it's heart, is just, it's the delusional wrappings that you present it with, that I take issue with.

What I am saying is not delusional. However, I think that you lack insight in understanding it. Unfortunately for you, some understood it a little too well.

Pretty sure I don't have any 'Black people' phobias, but I'm all ears, since I read these threads for personal growth.

Personal growth. That's a new one to hide behind insulting and patronizing behavior.

I'll attend those sensitivity classes with you. I'll even share my notes.

Been there. Done that. But you've surely demonstrated a quite a bit knowledge from those racial insensitivity courses you've excelled in.

Thanks, but no thanks. You need racial sensitivity more than I do. And I would throw your notes back.

Now I will stay on topic. And I would much like it if you would leave me alone.

[edit on 31-3-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by chissler
A Class Divided

I agree, chissler, that is a wonderful lesson. I have seen the film and I have participated in several similar "experiments" designed to open the eyes of the participants to how people treat each other. They are fantastic tools and the effects can last a lifetime. They have for me.

I cannot understand the lasting effects of slavery because I was never a slave. I believe I could immerse myself in it to the point that it would overtake my life and make me miserable. I could convince myself that there needs to be some kind of restitution made because of the suffering of some people today. Then again, I could realize that the only way people are going to move out of the suffering is to decide to themselves. Because money does not soothe suffering.

What I can understand is the lasting effects of child molestation, rape and cancer because I personally experienced these all in my life. This is not something my ancestors experienced, it's something I experienced. I don't see how something that happened to ones ancestors (that they never knew or loved and couldn't recount their experiences) would affect a person to the point of being miserable and suffering in life unless one specifically wished it to.

Even the trauma of my past (MY OWN PAST, not my ancestors') I have pretty much overcome. I do not suffer from the injustices of it all. Not because it wasn't miserable, but because I do not WISH to. And I certainly don't go out and try to get someone to give me money to make it all right. Because nothing can make that right!

I get NO empathy for the issues of my past from the same people who are demanding empathy from me. They ignore my pain. They "don't see" my suffering because they're too busy railing about their own and demanding something from me to soothe a pain that wasn't even inflicted on them! That is so twisted, I can't even believe it.

If the descendants of slaves want to and choose to be miserable and blame the "Master's children" and demand empathy, understanding, kindness and courtesy, while lashing out at ME with hatred and ignoring any suffering I might have, and blaming me for not feeling guilty about something I have no part in... I honestly don't know what can be done about it. It seems they want to stay in the problem.

Every time I and others have asked, "What can we do"? "What next"? "Where do we go from here"? we are completely ignored.

It seems the only thing they want us to do is say what they want us to say, in the manner in which they want us to to say it. I wish we had done that from the start. I wish we had all agreed 100%, then at least we could find out where to go from here. But as it is, we are just STUCK in the problem and cannot find out a next step or a POSITIVE move to get out of the problem and into solution. Because every time we ask, we are ignored.

That shows me that people don't want to move out of their mysery. And if that's what they want, they can have it.

My ancestors, as far as I know, never owned slaves. I'm of Irish, Welsh, Italian, and Jewish descent. The only ones that were in America long enough to have owned slaves was my Irish side.

Should I demand payment for the possible enslavement of my Jewish ancestors? What about Irish oppression under the British? It goes on and on, history is history!

Give up your prejudice. A generation of the present can't hold grudges for those of the past. Continue to fool yourself if you wish, but what's done is done; hatred will only make the problem worse.

And besides, who would pay? Me? I'm not giving some guy money for something my ancestors did. I don't even like most of them.

[edit on 31-3-2007 by Johnmike]

Next Guy,

Thanks for your comments.

There won't be an "Uncle Tom" essay written here by me. Forget that.

Your use of the word "retarded" made me laugh! I agree with you.

The Others have bunched up together, Defending each other, Wallowing in the Guilt they Deny they have...and starting to get Militant.

I am sitting here cracking up (laughing) at them all. They certainly do stick together don't they?

Must they always react the same way to all the race threads?

Could these be the people who watch the lynching, going home secure in the knowledge that they didn't kill anyone?

Innocent spectators?

Respectfully, I don't think that there's anything wrong with discussing history and calling for empathy and understanding of the painful nature of the past. It is not being stuck in the past. And it certainly doesn't have to do with misery.

I do know what empathy means. And I stand by what I say when there is a problem in American society that results from indifference and lack of conscience.

I cannot speak for the others. But, I think there is something to be said when people openly disrespect those who suffer in society.

Respectfully, I know I am not writing an "Uncle Tom" essay. But that is neither here nor there.

So much for personal growth.

[edit on 31-3-2007 by ceci2006]

How is it possible to wallow in guilt we don't feel? Feel free to attempt to enlighten me. I have nothing to feel guilty for. I have many times said that slavery was and is a horrific crime against mankind. Since I do not own a slave, and to the best of my knowledge none of my ancestors did. Sorry to disappoint you, but no guilt here acknowleged or otherwise.

It's nice to see that you've managed to lump us all into one group of uncaring, oh so defensive, people who lack any sort of empathy. So I'll close with this, then you can keep right on wallowing in your selfrighteous self pity.

Not one of us who dare to disagree with you ever say that slavery wasn't and isn't bad. Not one. I would only suggest that you save your anger for the slave holders who are currently doing so. There aren't any here.