As the tension rises in the Middle East, public opinion around the world as seen on these boards at least, appears to be polarizing.

Dissent is the lifeblood of Democracy, without it your left with quasi dictatorship. However to get straight to the point.

What happens if their is a formal declaration of war - from either side - ? Or for that matter a declaration of marshal law for as yet unforeseen circumstances ?

Much has been said about the possibility of FEMA camps being constructed across the United States. There are varying estimates at how many people these facilities could hold, but certainly tens of thousands seems to be the low end of the guesstimates.

As most of us realize, history has an unhappy knack of repeating itself, and there have been many examples of populations being interned for the duration of hostilities.

This moment in history is different however. If you got up on a soap box during the Second World War and declared " Death to the - insert country of choice - " You would have been taken away, charged as a traitor and dealt with accordingly. The soap box now is a digital one and reaches a far greater audience. IT, like the soapbox, has a point of origin. IT's called an IP: Address.

If the camps exist, and the level of government automated surveillance is at the level of sophistication that some suggest. Then have the lists already been drawn, or at least a comprehensive categorization of undesirables ?

Am I correct in thinking that a Declation of War or Marshall law brings these dynamics into play ?

[edit on 25-3-2007 by Seeker PI]

I would think that certainly the government would use the information that they've been gathering for God knows how long now, to sort out the "threats" to their movement.

Anyone showing dissent towards their goals poses a problem for them getting to the goal at hand. If they've got a list of (oh, how many are on ATS?...) 90,000 people that could very easily spread the word, then what better way to protect said investment, than to cut off the head of the snake, so to speak.

As far as lists already being drawn?... I'm sure that if they've got personnel on the payroll to sit in front of a computer all day and mess with people like you and I, then I guess they've made some attempt at collecting data towards who said what and were they might be located.

Either way, I don't think you've got much to worry about. At least not yet.

Good thinkin, though.

Originally posted by Seeker PI
Am I correct in thinking that a Declation of War or Marshall law brings these dynamics into play ?

[edit on 25-3-2007 by Seeker PI]

Absolutely, why else would they have built them, especially in such secluded areas and so well gaurded and mantained. Post-Pearl Harbor all over again.

Originally posted by opinionsarefree
Post-Pearl Harbor all over again.

You are correct, oaf... And it's only a matter of time with the instability in the M.E. and here at home (with the opposition to the corrupt administration), IMHO.

Here is the question of the decade: When will it happen? Will it be in 2008? 2012? 2046? 2100? Sooner? Somewhere in between?
From what I see we are currently in the stage of: the water is getting hot, it is just barely starting to bubble, the burners are prone to go full power at any second and make the water turn into a rolling boil. The question is, when will the fires be turned to max? By whom? For what "reason?"
Frankly I am someone who thinks if this suckers gonna blow then hurry up and light the darn fuse and lets get the show on the road!

Thanks for the insight and links folks.

The REX-84 plan certainly shows a determined effort on the part of Government agencies, to address a percieved threat from within.

Having spent some time reading through the links and looking at some previous threads, its clear to me at least, that this runs pretty deep.

Should Iran declare war as part of their " Mouse that Roared" policy, It would be more than interesting to see if action is taken under the banner of the United Nations, or as I suspect, each nation responds with their own declarations. Thus putting the whole ball of wax into play.

I wonder how much of the information from the data bases will be shared between allies ?

Edited to include:

Vekar: I'll guess. By the end of this year!

[edit on 25-3-2007 by Seeker PI]

It won't happen during the Bush administration, because this administration didn't initiate it. Frankly, I believe the Bush camp is far too moderate (not to mention incompetent) to make such a daring take-over. Look at the manner in which FEMA bungled Hurricane Katrina management — the leadership wasn't and still isn't there. This is a cardboard presidency and administration, set up as the heavies to take the heat for our collective political discontent, in preparation for the blessed relief when it arrives in 2009.

And, mark my words, when the relief arrives, when we all breathe a sigh and drop our guards and throw open our arms to a Progressive administration, that's when the axe comes down.

In case nobody noticed, the Executive Branch of our government has been waging a very real war against anti-government thinking in this country, dating back to the earliest days of the Clinton Administration, and probably before that. Rat bastard government operatives had been infiltrating militia groups and spying on American citizens, kicking ass and taking names. It's just that, under Clinton's rule, they pulled out the stops and started actually killing American citizens right out in broad open daylight. Ruby Ridge, the first WTC attack, Waco, and Oklahoma City were only the tip of the iceberg, most visible to the general populace.

I remember it was just after the OKC bombing in 1995, when President Clinton appeared in Oklahoma City to console the city in its moment of grief, that I heard the words that sent a chill up my spine — Clinton stood right there in front of all these teary-eyed American citizens and intoned: "You can't love your country and hate your government"... And there was a rather uncertain patter of applause — people weren't quite sure exactly what they had just heard, I guess.

But I knew exactly what I had just heard. It wasn't an awkward and badly phrased attempt at patriotism — it was a warning to anyone who ever entertained anti-government sentiments. If you hate your government, you can't love your country. Meaning, you're less than dirt. You're on the list.

As far as I was concerned, this was when the Shadow Government was so near the surface, you could see its goddamned periscope. It didn't even care anymore, it was just that far away from breaking the surface.

But it didn't, and do you know why? Because they had not sufficiently established an enemy of the people, a threat that was so horrible that the American people would gladly wipe their asses with the Constitution and welcome a totalitarian regime with open arms. They tried to establish such an enemy through both foreign and domestic terrorist threats, and even that didn't work — America was complacent a month after 911. The giant had momentarily awakened, rolled over and went back to sleep. After 8 years of domestic horror under Bill Clinton, even terrorism couldn't motivate us.

Our Shadow Government needed a new enemy of the people, one who just frustrated the hell out of us.

So they turned George W. Bush into the National Whipping Boy, and fomented so much discontent and outright hatred against this ninny and his political party that even conservatives were embarrassed to claim him. That's how I see the Bush Administration — thoroughly incapable of executing the convoluted conspiracies credited to it. He's like the guy in a carnival dunking tank — people just step up, one after the other, and hurl their anger at him, and down he goes. Time and time again. Meanwhile, nobody seems to realize that this dripping wet clown is just a distraction, a friggin' side show that has nothing to do with the Grand Plan.

Bush doesn't care how soggy his administration becomes, he's still getting paid, he's following the script, he's playing the role of bad guy, just standing there with a dopey grin on his mug, allowing Americans to work themselves into a malcontent frenzy until... January 2009. At which time our saviors, the Progressives, will shoo GWB on his way and take the helm of a grateful and exhausted nation. We'll gladly hand them the keys to the mansion, won't we?

Then let Hell on Earth begin.

— Doc Velocity

[edit on 3/26/2007 by Doc Velocity]

Thanks for the input Doc Velocity.

A passionate and compelling reasoning for sure. If you are correct these are Dark Days Indeed !

If the flag goes up, and the FEMA camps go into action. Would it be in plain sight or would it be a covert action ?

Hell, I'd be very surprised if it was hidden from the public.

When the Constitution is finally aborted, we'll probably be treated to grand tours of the dissident detention facilities through the government-controlled news media and on big flat-screen HD screens in every schoolroom. I mean, they'd want us to see the price we'd pay for dissent, they'd want us to know that there really was a hell waiting for anyone daring to oppose the regime.

In the old USSR, for instance, every citizen knew of the certain death that awaited him in Siberian mines if he challenged The Party. More than enough incentive to keep the Soviets walking the straight and narrow, living in a state of perpetual paranoia.

"Good American Citizens" would work hand-in-hand with the regime — remember East Berlin? Where 1/3 of the population were communist government informants? Every third person you met was capable of turning you in for interrogation and detention. Parents turned in children, children turned in parents. You needed "papers" to travel from town to town.

I mean, this has already happened in my lifetime, so it's not a flight of fantasy for me.

— Doc Velocity

[edit on 3/26/2007 by Doc Velocity]

Originally posted by Doc Velocity

In the old USSR, for instance, every citizen knew of the certain death that awaited them in Siberian mines if they challenged The Party. More than enough incentive to keep the Soviets walking the straight and narrow, living in a state of perpetual paranoia.


[edit on 3/26/2007 by Doc Velocity]

Absolutely, the Soviets played the Gulag card for all it was worth.

That said, I just couldn't see Americans sitting back and accepting it.

Honestly I can't. I think you'd have militias arming everywhere. And I would question how many in the armed forces would be willing to apply the Jackboot of Justice to their fellow Americans.

Originally posted by Seeker PI

Absolutely, the Soviets played the Gulag card for all it was worth.

That said, I just couldn't see Americans sitting back and accepting it.

Honestly I can't. I think you'd have militias arming everywhere. And I would question how many in the armed forces would be willing to apply the Jackboot of Justice to their fellow Americans.

Which is exactly the reason you'll never see a 'socialist' America. 'Free Arms' and 'Socialism' just don't mix.

Never will the two mix. Explain how the two coincide in a 'totalitarian' government (in which, most on this board proclaim are the intentions of the current administration).

-Sour

Well, that's why NWO anti-gun socialists worldwide are so anxious to see the American population disarmed... Assimilation can't occur — at least not easily — until that prerequisite is met.

And it won't be easy, by any stretch of the imagination. There are some 290 million privately-owned firearms in this country, owned by some 80 million American citizens. I know some will argue that this monstrously well-armed populace is insuffiently organized to mount any effective insurgency... But, seriously, even a third of our armed citizens firing roughly in the same direction could lay waste to most of the organized infantry on earth. Hell, a million chimpanzees with loaded weapons could devastate most organized armies. Terrified troops and civilians alike would be scrambling for cover — Save yourselves! Them monkeys are shooting wildly!

Which is why I believe it's so vitally important that gun owners understand that they may hold the fate of the nation in their hands.

— Doc Velocity

[edit on 3/26/2007 by Doc Velocity]

I never "fire wildly..."

One Shot Monkeys, not just for one kill anymore...

The more 'wildly' I shoot, the less likely any stranger will walk on my land.

God bless (free-armed) America!


[edit on 26-3-2007 by SourGrapes]

just a couple of facts:

290,000,000 citizens in the u.s.

1.4 million active duty military personnel

24 million military veterans

254 cities in the u.s. with populations of 100,000

if they aren't very careful how they proceed with any plan it will be a blood bath and it won't be go all the way they might like it to.

I will do some research later and try to dig up some think tank docs to back up some of my assertions, but for now, let me give you my opinion on the strategies being employed.

The demonization of militia groups and patriot movements.
increasing gun control and power of regulatory agencies
The destruction of our Military, large deployments to hundreds of foreign bases and perpetual entanglements overseas.
The Illegal trade agreements, dissolving our borders and destroying our sovereignty.
Massive influx of illegal immigrants.
The Aztlan movement, creation of militant immigrant groups.
The destruction of our economy.
Creation of massive debt to foriegn nations.
Selling off our vital infrastructure and land to foreign governments.
The gutting of the Constitution and Bill of rights.

I could probably fill several pages. Taken together, they reveal the plan to destroy America. It has been a long time in the making and is coming to a rapid conclusion.

1. Any number of provocations could send America spiraling out of control.
2. Because our military is spread so thin, the Government will not be able to contain it. (more like they won't even try)
3. Foreign assistance will be requested. (according to plan)
4. UN Peace-keepers sent in to restore order. (by design)
5. Americans are interred in camps, conveniently built and staffed ahead of time.
6. End game. ( bye bye America)

This is just my speculation based on some of the things I've read.
I might fill in more later...

Here is some key realization that must happen though: the entire world has a common enemy for once and right now we are loosing at the game of chess and fast. To be frank with you I would not be supprised if the government does not HELP these Aztlan groups get their weapons if not just GIVE it to them. The more chaos the better in their case. Secondly we of North America that includes Canada, Mexico AND the USA need to be in this one together if we are going to win. The larger a frontier we create, the harder it will be for them to keep their control grid running.
Even if they just take the cities, having the control EVERYTHING from ALL accross North America is going to be a major thorn in their side. Not even "peacekeeper" forces could handle that. You know something though? This would be the grandest chance to clense the KKK, neo-nazis, drug runners, skinheads and the like from our societies. The government wont, so we might as well do it for them.
None the less the world DOES need to be united and hopefully behind a "one world government" however by no means in the way these goons want it. Sovereinty is had even with a one world government if done PROPERLY and not as a fascists regime like we see now.
None the less, they have A LOT to control, so I doubt they will hold the countryside, just the cities and major corporate regions. Everything else will be left to the winds of chaos. Here is the critical part though: even if they do take over, you have you GET OUT and GET OUT FAST! None of us know how high we are on the priority list for being "dispatched" so it is advisable to grab what you can and bug out ASAP.
Here is something else: who will be the new posterboy/girl for the NWO? Like in George Orwells 1984, the smilling man with a mustache, they need one too. A face with which to use, one not menacing but just barely smiling, one to keep the public tame.
Also: the Mexicans are flooding in because there is jack squat for them in Mexico, NAFTA wiped out their small business's with corporations and the people are being used and abused. I guess they think by flocking north they will get a repreive, sadly they will not. Just a different kind of tyrany with a different flag, face and name.

Your logic is flawed in your thinking that dissent is the life blood of democracy.

Dissent stagnates the actual workings of the government, the democracy, as it is established to further the progress of the people, not simply protect your rights..

If dissent where in fact the lifeblood of the democratic progress, we would be backwards people in a constant state of anarchy..

Dissent is the lifeblood of the far right, and the far left. Those who are rational in the middle are more inclined to understand that you do not have the right to run amok doing what ever you damn well please. Your "rights" are simply not as vast as you think they are.

There will be times when the government impedes upon your rights, and legally you can fight back, dissent breeds anger and hostility towards the fools you join in the disorder.. which brings about tougher laws that will truly impede on your rights. Dissent is the most common tool used by up and coming dictators to have their way with the people.. it gives justification to many horrors.

Do not be so quick to say dissent is the lifeblood of anything, except democracies early death.

Originally posted by wcssar
just a couple of facts:

290,000,000 citizens in the u.s.

1.4 million active duty military personnel

24 million military veterans

254 cities in the u.s. with populations of 100,000

if they aren't very careful how they proceed with any plan it will be a blood bath and it won't be go all the way they might like it to.

Which is exactly why the plan could never work..

Believe me you will know if something where going down.. a few years before the camps could ever be used they have to purge society for their weapons..

Germany..

Russia..

China..

Cambodia..

just a few examples of "gun control" laws that where passed just years before mass murder began.. they cannot take over an armed populace.. they can take over a unarmed populace.. gun control is the ticket to totalitarian governments.. history shows us as much..

The next thing I find interesting is that so many like "republicans" want to use the camps.. yet Bush has defended the right to bear arms incredibly well.. he has openly stated the government has no right to impede on that right.. in fact in my state since the republicans took over we can carry weapons on the streets, in our cars and keep them loaded. Why would you allow that if your planning to incarcerate the people? Yeah, doesn't make sense.. not to be political, but it is the liberal left you should fear when it comes to these camps. .imo. . but I believe the camps where built for disaster purposes only..

think about it.. incarcerate a few million people - your economy collapses and your world influence is destroyed. You may be dictator but your dictator of nothing..

As for the armed services, there are tons of threads discussing it on ATS.. soldiers tend to be right winged pro-gun and nationalistic.. if they saw the government attack the people few would assist.. they are people as well.. not mindless robotic killing machines..