Video: American Soldiers Shooting Iraqi Civilians

Originally posted by Doc Velocity

Frankly, I'm astonished that ATS would allow this sort of sensational editorialism, when it is not known that American soldiers are shooting Iraqi civilians in this video. The evidence simply is not there. And the responsibility for proof falls to those who claim these are Iraqi civilians, and that they are being shot.

So, where's the proof?

It certainly is American soldiers so its likely in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Did you see any military uniforms on the people being shot at? If not they are civilians.

What would make them into 'insurgents'? An act of belligerence. Did you see any of the people driving in the cars attack the soldiers? No.

The conclusion, without evidence of an act of belligerence, must be that civilians were attacked.

Originally posted by SteveR
They are innocent.

Originally posted by deltaboy
O really?

Oh yes. Citizens of Iraq have a right to resist foreign occupation if they deem it best for their country.

Why you think the invasion is a gift from god is beyond my comprehension.

[edit on 25/3/07 by SteveR]

Originally posted by osram
The only reason for this war is the natural ressource called "oil".. which is one of the only remaining factors for people to believe in the Fiat-Currency "US-Dollar".

That is the quintessential Dem/Liberal characterization of our motives in Iraq: It's all about oil! Here's a little energy commerce lesson for you — we import less than 20% of our crude from the Middle East. That's about the same amount we import from Canada — so why didn't we just blame Canada for 911 and invade them, eh?. Beyond that, our Third-World NAU partner, Mexico, is about to tap the largest oil field on the planet, right in the Gulf of Mexico, and guess who is the first customer?

So, we're not hurting for Iraq's oil. Never have.

We're trying to establish a major Western-style military state in the Middle East for a couple of reasons: 1.To draw the fire of Islamic militants away from America's shores, and 2. Because we have a deeply, deeply vested interest in the survival of Israel.

I'm not going to even attempt to explain the extent of Israel's influence in global affairs — because, frankly, I have no idea how deep that rabbit hole goes — but you can sum it up like this: Israel makes the world go 'round.

When it comes to Israel, there are forces at work that we can't possibly imagine, forces that supersede international law, human rights, and everything else that is popularly accepted as "fair" or "just" — Suffice to say, if anyone or anything threatens Israel, that threat will be removed, regardless of public opinion and political correctness. That is the hard, cold and usually unspoken fact of what is happening in the Middle East right now.

— Doc Velocity

Ok just what type of uniform does the Iraqi Insurgency wear? seems to me that theyre NOT a real Army and they do NOT have a uniform, genius.

Originally posted by Malichai

Originally posted by Doc Velocity

Frankly, I'm astonished that ATS would allow this sort of sensational editorialism, when it is not known that American soldiers are shooting Iraqi civilians in this video. The evidence simply is not there. And the responsibility for proof falls to those who claim these are Iraqi civilians, and that they are being shot.

So, where's the proof?

It certainly is American soldiers so its likely in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Did you see any military uniforms on the people being shot at? If not they are civilians.

What would make them into 'insurgents'? An act of belligerence. Did you see any of the people driving in the cars attack the soldiers? No.

The conclusion, without evidence of an act of belligerence, must be that civilians were attacked.

Originally posted by SteveR

Oh yes. Citizens of Iraq have a right to resist foreign occupation if they deem it best for their country.

Resist a foreign invasion by killing Iraqis? Wow thats a good excuse. Killings hundreds of thousands of Iraqi citizens along the way. Citizens of Iraq defending their nation by killing thousands of innocent Iraqi Muslim civilians, now thats something.

Originally posted by Malichai
Did you see any military uniforms on the people being shot at? If not they are civilians.

What would make them into 'insurgents'? An act of belligerence. Did you see any of the people driving in the cars attack the soldiers? No.

The conclusion, without evidence of an act of belligerence, must be that civilians were attacked.

Did you see the video of where an innocent person with a cellphone blew up an Iraqi police vehicle? Does that mean he was attacking them?

Originally posted by deltaboy
Resist a foreign invasion by killing Iraqis? Wow thats a good excuse. Killings hundreds of thousands of Iraqi citizens along the way. Citizens of Iraq defending their nation by killing thousands of innocent Iraqi Muslim civilians, now thats something.

Am I speaking about killing fellow Iraqis? Try reading the post again.

Good luck on your reply.

Originally posted by Kr0n0s
Ok just what type of uniform does the Iraqi Insurgency wear? seems to me that theyre NOT a real Army and they do NOT have a uniform, genius.

What makes a person into an 'insurgent'?

An act of belligerence.

Where is there evidence of an act of belligerence by the people being shot at?

Short of that how can you claim they are insurgents?

The burden of proof lies on you to prove that these people, not wearing military uniforms, had committed a crime that required the use of deadly force.

Originally posted by SteveR

Originally posted by deltaboy
Resist a foreign invasion by killing Iraqis? Wow thats a good excuse. Killings hundreds of thousands of Iraqi citizens along the way. Citizens of Iraq defending their nation by killing thousands of innocent Iraqi Muslim civilians, now thats something.

Am I speaking about killing fellow Iraqis? Try reading the post again.

Good luck on your reply.

You did say citizens of Iraq did you not?

Originally posted by Doc Velocity

Originally posted by osram
The only reason for this war is the natural ressource called "oil".. which is one of the only remaining factors for people to believe in the Fiat-Currency "US-Dollar".

That is the quintessential Dem/Liberal characterization of our motives in Iraq: It's all about oil! Here's a little energy commerce lesson for you — we import less than 20% of our crude from the Middle East. That's about the same amount we import from Canada — so why didn't we just blame Canada for 911 and invade them, eh?. Beyond that, our Third-World NAU partner, Mexico, is about to tap the largest oil field on the planet, right in the Gulf of Mexico, and guess who is the first customer?

So, we're not hurting for Iraq's oil. Never have.

We're trying to establish a major Western-style military state in the Middle East for a couple of reasons: 1.To draw the fire of Islamic militants away from America's shores, and 2. Because we have a deeply, deeply vested interest in the survival of Israel.

I'm not going to even attempt to explain the extent of Israel's influence in global affairs — because, frankly, I have no idea how deep that rabbit hole goes — but you can sum it up like this: Israel makes the world go 'round.

When it comes to Israel, there are forces at work that we can't possibly imagine, forces that supersede international law, human rights, and everything else that is popularly accepted as "fair" or "just" — Suffice to say, if anyone or anything threatens Israel, that threat will be removed, regardless of public opinion and political correctness. That is the hard, cold and usually unspoken fact of what is happening in the Middle East right now.

— Doc Velocity

I agree with you that there are certainly mightier Forces behind the Evident.

But if you look at Fiat-Dollar, China, and the Elite stealing even the last drop of blood from any regular citizen by means of war, or simply by printing the money at will.

You have to realize that the Oil will be gone in 15 yrs. You can't just calculate in Percentages of Oil-Import from wherever you know.
15 Years is a short time. So the aspect of "Oil" has much more weight than you might believe.

In this fake bloodsucker Economic System which is absolutely Greedy at the moment they are doing everything possible to keep the Belief in "Fiat-Currency" alive as long as possible.

Originally posted by SteveR
Am I speaking about killing fellow Iraqis? Try reading the post again.

Originally posted by deltaboy
You did say citizens of Iraq did you not?

Since you refuse to read, I will do the work for you. I said citizens of Iraq have a right to resist foreign occupation. At no point am I addressing Iraqi's infighting.

THAT issue is moot in the context of THIS thread.

Do you understand now?

Originally posted by deltaboy

Resist a foreign invasion by killing Iraqis? Wow thats a good excuse. Killings hundreds of thousands of Iraqi citizens along the way. Citizens of Iraq defending their nation by killing thousands of innocent Iraqi Muslim civilians, now thats something.

They have the right to resist foreign occupation by killing the forces of the occupation. It falls under self-determination.

When and/or if America is occupied by a hostile invader would it be your opinion that anyone fighting against the invading force deserved to be terminated with extreme deadly force?

With the shoe on the other foot can you walk?

Im still waiting on your answer on what an Iraqi Insurgents uniform looks like? What type of insignias do they use and what color are the uniforms?



[edit on 25-3-2007 by Kr0n0s]

Originally posted by SteveR

Originally posted by SteveR
Am I speaking about killing fellow Iraqis? Try reading the post again.

Originally posted by deltaboy
You did say citizens of Iraq did you not?

Since you refuse to read, I will do the work for you. I said citizens of Iraq have a right to resist foreign occupation. At no point am I addressing Iraqi's infighting.

THAT issue is moot in the context of THIS thread.

Do you understand now?

Definitely, but in a resistance, usually its against American troops, not against the Iraqi population. About 3,200 American troops dead compare to hundreds of thousands. Hmmm....are is it that hard to get killed? Civilians who have no armor protection, nor weapons to defend themselves, maybe some, but insurgents and terrorists are armed to the teeth.

For a population of millions in Iraq, we pretty much lose the whole army if the civilian population was rising up and fighting. But then they are not. So who is the resistance's enemy? The troops or the Iraqi population?

Originally posted by Malichai
It certainly is American soldiers so its likely in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Says right at the beginning of the video that it's in Ramadi, Iraq. That wasn't the question. The question is whether or not this video depicts a "massacre" (it doesn't), and whether or not these are "Iraqis" and are "innocent people" (neither of which can be determined from this video).

Originally posted by Malichai
Did you see any military uniforms on the people being shot at? If not they are civilians.

Insurgents don't wear uniforms. Insurgents are who we are fighting now, and they blend right in with the general population.

Originally posted by Malichai
What would make them into 'insurgents'? An act of belligerence. Did you see any of the people driving in the cars attack the soldiers? No.

It's common for insurgents to drive vehicles into the midst of marketplaces, military checkpoints and groups of soldiers and blow them sky-high with IEDs, too. How close would you allow them to approach before you start shooting? Are they supposed to wave little "Insurgency Suicide Squad" flags as they approach? No. When cars come speeding into a Marine fire fight, the cars are toast. They automatically become viable targets.

And I can go you one better than that. Based on the video, you can't prove that the Marines are even firing on anybody. You can't do it.

— Doc Velocity

[edit on 3/25/2007 by Doc Velocity]

Originally posted by Malichai
They have the right to resist foreign occupation by killing the forces of the occupation. It falls under self-determination.

When and/or if America is occupied by a hostile invader would it be your opinion that anyone fighting against the invading force deserved to be terminated with extreme deadly force?

With the shoe on the other foot can you walk?

So they have the right to kill American troops, but it seems to me they are more successful in killing Iraqi civilians than American troops. Do they have that right to go killing their own people which they seem happy and eager to do?

Originally posted by deltaboySo who is the resistance's enemy? The troops or the Iraqi population?

I will agree with you that this is a multi faceted war, and certain Iraqi groups are taking the opportunity to advance their own agenda.

My comments are specifically related to Iraqi combat with US forces, of which I deem appropriate, and know is going on far more than reported.

Originally posted by deltaboy

So they have the right to kill American troops, but it seems to me they are more successful in killing Iraqi civilians than American troops. Do they have that right to go killing their own people which they seem happy and eager to do?

So I guess you need to be reminded again, that this is a little more complex than good guys, bad guys.

This is a religious/civil war that the American Military is caught in the middle of. This was totally unexpected by the Military planners and now who is going to pay the price? Not the desk jockeys, but the grunts.
Bring them home now. Democracy will never work in a tribal society no matter how much you want it to. Let the Iraqi's work it out on their own.

Hedonistic actions? No, all I see is a bunch of Marines doing their job very well. I'm glad that none of them was hurt and that not one has become a statistic from that fire fight.

I salute the men and women that have the balls to pick up a rifle and fight, unlike the people who judge them.

Shattered OUT...

Originally posted by SteveR
I will agree with you that this is a multi faceted war, and certain Iraqi groups are taking the opportunity to advance their own agenda.

My comments are specifically related to Iraqi combat with US forces, of which I deem appropriate, and know is going on far more than reported.

Hey I understand what you mean by resisting against an occupation. But that does not justified in killing civilians. And in war where one side is killing another and you got people in civilian clothes attacking American troops, you understand this type of warfare where you cannot distinguish between innocent and not so innocent. There's a reason why the Geneva Convention explicitly mentions about insignia or some time of uniform, so as to not endanger civilians who pretty much wears the same clothing as insurgents.