Video: American Soldiers Shooting Iraqi Civilians

First of all, I am almost sure that I heard a relatively rare name in that video, and I graduated MCRD with a Marine of that name (Bohencamp). He's a good friggin guy- definately not somebody who would initiate something like this, and the kind of guy who would be more likely than most to talk if he'd seen it. I'll try to look him up and see if by some amazing stroke of luck the guy I heard being called was the guy I know. I do know that 5th Marines got a lot of guys who graduated the depot at the time we did- most of them actually went to 2/5, not 1/5... but I'll check it out and let you know if my friend actually was there (and it should be verifiable if so).

My thoughts though:

Originally posted by kleverone
Uhh yeah, uhhh we were wrong and should have allowed them to at least identify themselves like police have to

In what universe does the decision to enter an area that non-combatants should be fleeing not constitute identifying yourself?

What do you think would have happened during the North Hollywood Shootout if a car had come running up Laurel Canyon Blvd and pulled into that parkinglot?

Would the police have stood up from behind their cars, flashed their badges and calmly announced, "The ATM Machines are closed at this time. We appologize for the inconvenience. Please try another one of our many, conveniently located locations."???

I'm guessing that they would have cut that car to peices, and if by some miracle the driver lived and had turned out to be innocent, he probably would have been the first person in American history sentenced to death for committing Stupid in the First Degree.

I freely admit that some guys come apart and do awful things during war. I have had guys tell me that they were sick of seeing their friends get shot and felt like they ought to just start shooting whenever they get a bad feeling from now on.

That however is not what I see here. If I was massacring innocent people, I wouldn't be shouting for the dude with the camera to get back on line. I also wouldn't expect to see a round impact right in front of me, which I'm pretty sure I saw on that clip (and the audio seemed to verify it). I also think its interesting how many vehicles were heading to that building. It's not as if people were just getting shot up in front of it, the car that ended up on the road the camera was looking down pulled up close to the building as if the driver was either picking up from the building or going in... until the driver caught one and the car rolled out into the street. Why was that the only place where there were any vehicles in the neighborhood?

Last but not least... slaughtering unarmed civilians with the SMAW??? The SMAW is not organic to the rifle platoon. It is found in the weapons platoon of a rifle company (link). That would indicate that this unit was given a mission wherein it was expected they would be assaulting reasonably well-defended positions. This fits with the earlier attempt to place a date and event on the incident.

So now to make a little inference. You're being sent into combat and you've been given a rocket launcher so that you won't get bogged down and torn up by enemies holding up in a building along your route. You encounter some civilians you want to slaughter. Do you: A. Shoot them. or B. Unncessarily expend mission critical assets which may save your life later?

And what about the rest of the operation? These guys aren't gonna be all by their lonesome- other Marines are going to be around and hear that SMAW. Do you think that if these guys were just miscreants that they would be attracting the attention of their CO like that? Because I'm willing to bet that somebody shortly after that video ended wanted an explanation of the situation, at which point if these guys were just screwing around, they would either have to falsely report an engagement, possibly affecting the tactical situation as the commander saw it and thereby endangering the success of the mission and their own lives... or they could say they were just trying to kill somebody for not wearing his seatbelt... and go to jail.

At first glance, it just doesn't add up. But unless there are more Bohencamp's running around 5th Marines than I think (or maybe I just heard wrong)... hopefully it will turn out that my friend really was there, and then I'll see what I can learn for us.

It looks like they were fighting insurgents, to be honest.

"Dude, that sniper round hit right where you're at."

Originally posted by The Vagabond
First of all, I am almost sure that I heard a relatively rare name in that video, and I graduated MCRD with a Marine of that name (Bohencamp). He's a good friggin guy- definately not somebody who would initiate something like this, and the kind of guy who would be more likely than most to talk if he'd seen it. I'll try to look him up and see if by some amazing stroke of luck the guy I heard being called was the guy I know. I do know that 5th Marines got a lot of guys who graduated the depot at the time we did- most of them actually went to 2/5, not 1/5... but I'll check it out and let you know if my friend actually was there (and it should be verifiable if so).

My thoughts though:

Originally posted by kleverone
Uhh yeah, uhhh we were wrong and should have allowed them to at least identify themselves like police have to

In what universe does the decision to enter an area that non-combatants should be fleeing not constitute identifying yourself?

Please explain to me how you may or may not know you are driving into a combatant area? I see many roads leading to that area, are all the entries and exits marked combatant zone? Are there checkpoints at each entry and exit?

So now to make a little inference. You're being sent into combat and you've been given a rocket launcher so that you won't get bogged down and torn up by enemies holding up in a building along your route. You encounter some civilians you want to slaughter. Do you: A. Shoot them. or B. Unncessarily expend mission critical assets which may save your life later?

If I'm not mistaken I can hear one soldiers anxiously ecouraging the other holding the Rocket Launcher to get it up. They obviously didn't need to use it, it was a masacre, they were nowhere near bogged down. I certainly see what you are saying but these soldiers not in danger in this situation. You also mentioned you may have saw a round impact right on the edge, I must have missed that, could you give me a time in the vid so I can check that one out.

My best bet would be that they completley ambushed a building harboring insurgents. Those soldiers deserve a medal for doing such a good job.

Originally posted by kleverone
Please explain to me how you may or may not know you are driving into a combatant area?

Gunfire is always a clue. Rocket-launcher fire even more so. You did see the video, right?

Its not as if the Marines were waiting quietly for those cars and then opened up on them. They were hammering the building across the road to hell and gone, and a couple of cars came racing up to the building and tried to stop there... the one crashed and you could make an argument, but the other one clearly pulled up to the building before the driver got killed.

I see many roads leading to that area, are all the entries and exits marked combatant zone? Are there checkpoints at each entry and exit?

According to what someone posted from "Doc"s comments earlier, apparently those cars did blow a checkpoint, but I wasn't there so I wont claim to know that.
What I will claim to know is that when I hear gunfire up ahead of me, I change directions, and (this part is hypothetical) if I heard rocket launcher fire, I wouldn't bother turning around... I'd kick that car in reverse and just hope to god that the people behind me shared my good sense.

If I'm not mistaken I can hear one soldiers anxiously ecouraging the other holding the Rocket Launcher to get it up. They obviously didn't need to use it, it was a masacre, they were nowhere near bogged down.

So you're saying that if you were those Marines, you would have had no qualms about leaving the cover of that wall and crossing the street? They were engaged. I'd be anxiously encouraging him to get the SMAW up too if some SOB was hiding in a building and taking pot-shots at me.
I'm not saying they were in desperate fear for their lives, but they were being shot at and I imagine that made them anxious to kill the person doing it- when that person is in a covered position, the SMAW is the prescribed tool for the job.

I certainly see what you are saying but these soldiers not in danger in this situation.

At approximately 48 seconds you will see a flash of dust in the foreground and then hear "oh (s), you almost got hit" or something to that effect. At the end of the video you will hear somebody telling Doc again that the sniper almost got him.

Originally posted by The Vagabond

Gunfire is always a clue. Rocket-launcher fire even more so. You did see the video, right?

Wow, so you can actually see bullets as they whiz through the air? You also mentioned that these marines may have been nervous? Well what about the people in the cars? You expect the "insurgent" to be level headed have no qualms and throw it in reverse but the Marine had the right to be anxious? I fail to see your logic there.

Its not as if the Marines were waiting quietly for those cars and then opened up on them. They were hammering the building across the road to hell and gone, and a couple of cars came racing up to the building and tried to stop there... the one crashed and you could make an argument,

I actually tried to but you bashed me for suggesting these people try to identify themselves, the one was shot in the head while driving so he wasn't given much of a chance.

but the other one clearly pulled up to the building before the driver got killed.

probably because his car stopped running from the bullets, you are aware the a 50 caliber shot can destroy a car engine, right?

What I will claim to know is that when I hear gunfire up ahead of me, I change directions, and (this part is hypothetical) if I heard rocket launcher fire, I wouldn't bother turning around... I'd kick that car in reverse and just hope to god that the people behind me shared my good sense.

I would probably panic, just like those people in the car. Then again you can see bullets and be able to tell exactly where there coming from. Without tracers too, impressive!

So you're saying that if you were those Marines, you would have had no qualms about leaving the cover of that wall and crossing the street?

If I were those soldiers I would put down my weapon and stop fighting a BS war and demand the impeachment of Geroge W Bush before any of my other friends died a useless death in Vietnam part 2. That what I would do.

Originally posted by kleverone
I would probably panic, just like those people in the car. Then again you can see bullets and be able to tell exactly where there coming from. Without tracers too, impressive!

So just to be sure, kleverone, are you claiming that the Marines could not discern that they were coming under fire and did not know the general direction of the fire? Why were they behind the wall then?

Also, have you ever heard a full blown gun battle? The closest I've come to that was an outdoor shooting range and I would have the common sense not to walk or drive onto it. A firefight would be of a scale above that. IT'S REALLY LOUD AND THERE IS LOTS OF DAMAGE! You would have us assume those TWO drivers and only TWO were oblivious and deaf to the events around them?

Plus if I am one of those Marines receiving fire you darn well better believe that I want my heavy ordnance person to equip his weapon and fire it at the target in question. I would want to live first and foremost, if that means calling in an airstrike or a rocket launch to stop the incoming fire, then so be it. You aren't contending that there was no incoming fire on the Marines are you?

I get that you don't like the war. What I don't get is why you seem to feel the Marines were doing anything other than a military action there. It's not like they were destroying the whole neighborhood, they did however take out the source of the incoming fire in a way to safeguard themselves. You weren't/aren't in their shoes. Don't claim to know exactly what you would do in such a situation, you don't.

[edit on 9-4-2007 by pavil]

So just to be sure, kleverone, are you claiming that the Marines could not discern that they were coming under fire and did not know the general direction of the fire? Why were they behind the wall then?

No. I was inferring that the drivers of the two vehicles that were shot, may not have know exactly where the shots were coming from. I'm sure while panicking confusing can set in. Also my original problem was how the soldiers seemed to be laughing at killing these guys. And your right I'm not there and I'm not in that situation, but I know for a fact I would not be laughing about killing another human being.

Also, have you ever heard a full blown gun battle? The closest I've come to that was an outdoor shooting range and I would have the common sense not to walk or drive onto it. A firefight would be of a scale above that. IT'S REALLY LOUD AND THERE IS LOTS OF DAMAGE! You would have us assume those TWO drivers and only TWO were oblivious and deaf to the events around them?

Please refer to above reply.

Plus if I am one of those Marines receiving fire you darn well better believe that I want my heavy ordnance person to equip his weapon and fire it at the target in question. I would want to live first and foremost, if that means calling in an airstrike or a rocket launch to stop the incoming fire, then so be it. You aren't contending that there was no incoming fire on the Marines are you?

No. I saw the bullet. Almost got Doc. But let me ask you this, if you were telling your heavy ordance person to equip his weapon and fire it and the target in question, would you be salivating like a wolf while you did it?

I get that you don't like the war. What I don't get is why you seem to feel the Marines were doing anything other than a military action there. It's not like they were destroying the whole neighborhood, they did however take out the source of the incoming fire in a way to safeguard themselves. You weren't/aren't in their shoes. Don't claim to know exactly what you would do in such a situation, you don't.

Please refer to above post.





[edit on 10-4-2007 by kleverone]

Originally posted by kleverone

So you're saying that if you were those Marines, you would have had no qualms about leaving the cover of that wall and crossing the street?

If I were those soldiers I would put down my weapon and stop fighting a BS war and demand the impeachment of Geroge W Bush before any of my other friends died a useless death in Vietnam part 2. That what I would do.

You didn't answer the question. What do you want them to have done? Gotten out, walked up to them and said, "Hello, you just sped up to the building where the people shooting at us are. Do you happen to have any weapons you plan on shooting us with?"

Originally posted by kleverone
No. I saw the bullet. Almost got Doc.

Okay.

Originally posted by kleverone
But let me ask you this, if you were telling your heavy ordance person to equip his weapon and fire it and the target in question, would you be salivating like a wolf while you did it?

Maybe. The adrenaline would be pumping. I wouldn't care if he started spitting or pissing or screaming, as long as he got them out of there alive.

Originally posted by Johnmike
You didn't answer the question.

What do you want them to have done? Gotten out, walked up to them and said, "Hello, you just sped up to the building where the people shooting at us are. Do you happen to have any weapons you plan on shooting us with?"

How about focusing on the building of insurgents instead of the people in the cars. What were they gonna do, pull a driveby? The first guy was shot in the head while driving the other guys car looks as if it had taken one too many bullets and wasn't going any further. What was he supposed to do, Stay in it?

Why would two cars speed into a combat zone? I might have shot at them, too.

Originally posted by Johnmike

Originally posted by kleverone
But let me ask you this, if you were telling your heavy ordance person to equip his weapon and fire it and the target in question, would you be salivating like a wolf while you did it?

Maybe. The adrenaline would be pumping. I wouldn't care if he started spitting or pissing or screaming, as long as he got them out of there alive.

So you are not able to see that signs that maybe this kid has seen a little too much killing and probably shouldn't be in the position of "Liberating Iraqi's". I'll say it again, but its very clear to me that these soliders are starting to crack a little, which is to be expected. The problem is, there are not enough soldiers to cycle in to give these guys a break. Your President didn't care enough to worry about that or the loss of life when he hung his mission accomplished banner.

Originally posted by Johnmike
Why would two cars speed into a combat zone? I might have shot at them, too.

We have already discussed this. Please read the posts.

Originally posted by kleverone
So you are not able to see that signs that maybe this kid has seen a little too much killing and probably shouldn't be in the position of "Liberating Iraqi's". I'll say it again, but its very clear to me that these soliders are starting to crack a little, which is to be expected. The problem is, there are not enough soldiers to cycle in to give these guys a break. Your President didn't care enough to worry about that or the loss of life when he hung his mission accomplished banner.

I think they did the job okay, from my inexperienced point of view. It could just be how he deals with stress. I don't know. I don't like how long they keep soldiers, though, so I agree with you there.

Originally posted by kleverone

Originally posted by Johnmike
Why would two cars speed into a combat zone? I might have shot at them, too.

We have already discussed this. Please read the posts.

My point is that you don't have time to stop and ask them why they're there. You can't just sit there waiting for them to shoot at you or help the insurgents. They obviously drove INTO a combat zone. I would assume that they were enemies.

The problem is that this is being labeled a massacre, while it's obviously not.

Originally posted by kleverone

Originally posted by Johnmike
You didn't answer the question.

What do you want them to have done? Gotten out, walked up to them and said, "Hello, you just sped up to the building where the people shooting at us are. Do you happen to have any weapons you plan on shooting us with?"

How about focusing on the building of insurgents instead of the people in the cars. What were they gonna do, pull a driveby? The first guy was shot in the head while driving the other guys car looks as if it had taken one too many bullets and wasn't going any further. What was he supposed to do, Stay in it?

Have you seen what a freaking car bomb will do? How about RPGs? Suicide bombers on foot? Pull a drive by?! That is naive and shows you have no idea what is going on over there.

"pull a drive-by" Lol...It seems like he believes that it's just like LA over in Iraq. Just shows how skewed the perspective is of some people, but what do you expect when all you see is liberal bias in the media these days?

Originally posted by Kr0n0s
Right and im sure if the roles were reversed and you crashed your car after having it shot up by soldiers, then knowing your best chance for survival is to get out of the car and run as fast as you can..

How are the roles reversed, Mr. Grown Up? I wasn't shooting at those guys.

Youve got your opinions on things and I have mine but I have a
little more class than you do and dont call your opinions out and talk trash.

If you call class reveling in the murder of unarmed men, you can HAVE it!

So,dont get an attitude with me dude, do you have any official knowledge of that firefight? ie were YOU there? nope didnt think so, so my theory is as good as yours and anyone else that was NOT there.

If you used even just a LITTLE common sense, it would go a long ways. Common sense would tell you that you don't leave YOUR weapon and run UNARMED to get your POTNA'S weapon, all the while dodging bullets.

Find some facts to prove how you say it happened and you may get some respect.

The only thing I proved is how ridiculous your argument was. Make more sense next time and that won't happen to you.

Keep your personal attacks off the board child and you may actually learn something.

Child? Well, I guess that speaks volumes about your mental capacities if a child has more common sense than you...

Originally posted by kleverone
Wow, so you can actually see bullets as they whiz through the air?

I realize that most people have never fired or been present during the firing of the M16A2 service rifle or Shoulder-launched Multipurpose Assault Weapon, so I will clarify.

Assault weapons make a loud and distinctive crack when fired which will very easily get your attention at several hundred yards. You can hear it for quite further than that, but despite most distractions, you will take very serious note of the M-16A2 while you are still half a kilometer away, particularly if it is kicking up a buttload of concrete dust off of a building, as was the case at several points in that video.
And the SMAW: it literally shakes the ground. It is at least twice the attention getter that a train passing in front of you is.

You don't have to see the bullets flying around. You WILL hear the gunfire and see the SMAW impacts. You don't accidentally walk into a fight like that.

Incidentally, i used to live just slightly under a mile away from a rifle range, and for the first month or so it annoyed the hell out of me- even when I was shelted from the sound indoors.

You expect the "insurgent" to be level headed have no qualms and throw it in reverse but the Marine had the right to be anxious? I fail to see your logic there.

Are you suggesting that it is not possible to run away from a fire fight unless you are 100% calm? I fail to see your logic there.

I actually tried to but you bashed me

I admit that I replied sarcastically, but if you perceived it as personally offensive I offer my sincere apology. It was my intent to address the subject matter in a way that expressed my extreme incredulity at the idea presented, not to imply anything negative about you for suggesting it.

the one was shot in the head while driving so he wasn't given much of a chance.

As earlier, I disagree. I maintain that knowingly and willingly entering into a combat zone constitutes identifying yourself as a combatant.

probably because his car stopped running from the bullets, you are aware the a 50 caliber shot can destroy a car engine, right?

A 50 calliber with a buttload of powder behind it will accomplish that, yes. Unfortunately I neither saw nor heard the ma deuce in there. The only machine gun that I do believe I hear is either an M-249 or an M-240- the M249 is far more likely. The callibers of those weapons are .223 and .308, respectively, and it would take a pretty well placed shot to stop that car dead in its tracks with that. You could still do it if you hit the distributor, the timing chain, the right part of the alternator, the right part of the carbuerator, and probably a couple of other things, but bulk of the engine and related components would at least briefly endure some damage from small arms fire. This hypothesis, while not implausible. I'd also like to know why his car just happened to die in the fashion it did... namely pulling up with the drivers door right next to the entry to the building the Marines were engaging.
The hypothesis you suggest is not implausible, but by no means a certainty, and it still fails to explain what the car was doing in a combat zone.

I would probably panic, just like those people in the car.

Me too. I'm definately the type to panic... and run away.

Then again you can see bullets and be able to tell exactly where there coming from. Without tracers too, impressive!

The sound gets louder as you get closer. If you see a big explosion, you're driving towards the use of a rocket launcher. If you see concrete dust coming off a building while hearing gun shots, you're not much further away from that building than those Marines were, and it's your last chance to turn around.
Nobody who reads the above paragraph will ever be shot to death by Marines- I guarantee it.

If I were those soldiers I would put down my weapon and stop fighting a BS war and demand the impeachment of Geroge W Bush before any of my other friends died a useless death in Vietnam part 2. That what I would do.

Strategically speaking I agree. But I'm asking the question in a tactical sense.

Originally posted by The Vagabond


Are you suggesting that it is not possible to run away from a fire fight unless you are 100% calm? I fail to see your logic there.

Not at all, what I'm saying is that confusion could set it, the accelerator hits the floorboard and the car is never placed in reverse. I also highly doubt that the drivers of the vehicles where searching the roofs for troops when the took off, one wrong turn and there you are. Also with the sounds of the bullets echoing off the walls it would be very hard to dertermine where the shots where coming from if you were so much as around the corner, unless you knew exactly where to look, and at what time, you wouldn't see the dust kick up from the SWAM.

If I were those soldiers I would put down my weapon and stop fighting a BS war and demand the impeachment of Geroge W Bush before any of my other friends died a useless death in Vietnam part 2. That what I would do.

Strategically speaking I agree. But I'm asking the question in a tactical sense.

And I appreciate you responses

[edit on 10-4-2007 by kleverone]

[edit on 10-4-2007 by kleverone]

[edit on 10-4-2007 by kleverone]