A question about the second amendment:

Ok, even though defence against tyranny IS the whole point, we'll leave that issue aside for the moment.

CRIME
One of the main concerns of those who want to disarm you/me is the fear of crime. This is based on Hollywood, nothing more. Crime is a part of living in a community, and the larger the population, the higher the crime rate. Murder, Rape, Robbery, and others have been around long before guns, and will continue for long after. Back in the day of the sword, a woman was at the mercy of the man who wanted to rape her, since blades are only as good as the strength behind them. Someone once called the handgun "the great equalizer". I think that is a very appropriate title.

"Assault" firearms are often portrayed as venomous, evil tools of terrorists and ruthless criminals. Thats kinda funny really, I have seen more "Assault rifles" than I can count, but have never seen one reach out and force its owner to kill. And never have I seen one used in hostility. In fact, out of the 3 times that I have had a gun pointed in my direction, not once has the criminal used an "assault" weapon.

CHILD SAFTEY
Here is a novel idea! Rather than punish those who are responsible, and lock up their guns and teach their children Firearms Safety, how about making punishment stricter for those negligent fools who actually let this sort of thing happen. While we are at it, how often does this even happen anymore? someone should find the statistics of how many children accidentally die in shootings and compare it to how many children die in car crashes or due to malpractice in hospitals. I'll bet money that guns will come out looking pretty Darn safe.

FEAR
People don't like guns because they are afraid of them, and what they can do. I can except that, its only natural when every other show on TV is CSI, 24, Law & Order, or some other show where the cops are faced with an enormous criminal underground that has no regard for human life and somehow has access to everything.

The fact is that if there was a gun in every house, and on every pedestrian, more criminals would think twice about trying to victimize anyone.

Originally posted by Lilin
Umm... who mentioned the US military? I'm not saying we're useless little fishies waiting in a barrel. I'm not saying people wouldn't fight. What I am saying is that there is a new warfare. Just like we no longer march in straight lines with a fife to the left and drummer to the right, waiting to be shot down row by row. If they really wanted to take people out, they'd do it nice and quiet, there would be poison, there would be sickness, and the kind of capabilities such warfare would require, I betcha our government has in full stock.

Uh... I did? We're talking about the US people standing up to the US government... who stands in the way? US military.

A new warfare that we are all included in on, on some level or another.

They'd do it real nice and quite for a short amount of time, until at least... oh... 90445 (and counting) people began to say something about it and spread the word.

As a member of ATS, I'm certain you've noticed that the government cannot keep everything a secret forever.

Whatever they have in stock, we'll take it from them. After all, it belongs to "us".

Originally posted by Nicotine1982
Ok, even though defence against tyranny IS the whole point, we'll leave that issue aside for the moment.

CRIME
One of the main concerns of those who want to disarm you/me is the fear of crime. This is based on Hollywood, nothing more. Crime is a part of living in a community, and the larger the population, the higher the crime rate. Murder, Rape, Robbery, and others have been around long before guns, and will continue for long after. Back in the day of the sword, a woman was at the mercy of the man who wanted to rape her, since blades are only as good as the strength behind them. Someone once called the handgun "the great equalizer". I think that is a very appropriate title.

"Assault" firearms are often portrayed as venomous, evil tools of terrorists and ruthless criminals. Thats kinda funny really, I have seen more "Assault rifles" than I can count, but have never seen one reach out and force its owner to kill. And never have I seen one used in hostility. In fact, out of the 3 times that I have had a gun pointed in my direction, not once has the criminal used an "assault" weapon.

CHILD SAFTEY
Here is a novel idea! Rather than punish those who are responsible, and lock up their guns and teach their children Firearms Safety, how about making punishment stricter for those negligent fools who actually let this sort of thing happen. While we are at it, how often does this even happen anymore? someone should find the statistics of how many children accidentally die in shootings and compare it to how many children die in car crashes or due to malpractice in hospitals. I'll bet money that guns will come out looking pretty Darn safe.

FEAR
People don't like guns because they are afraid of them, and what they can do. I can except that, its only natural when every other show on TV is CSI, 24, Law & Order, or some other show where the cops are faced with an enormous criminal underground that has no regard for human life and somehow has access to everything.

The fact is that if there was a gun in every house, and on every pedestrian, more criminals would think twice about trying to victimize anyone.

Thank you for addressing my digression.

I think you've made great points and this is really what I was looking for in response. I don't know a lot about these issues, so I thank you for expanding my horizons.

I do think that there is fear to be had from a dangerous weapon, beyond what we see on CSI et cetera, but yeah, guns don't kill people... people kill people, after all.

I'm not sure it's exactly significant how many children die in other ways. Yes, it's a good way of illustrating risk, but any gun related accident with a child is one too many. It's not exactly rare either, I still hear about it all the time.

What I think it all comes down to is responsibility. But you can only cultivate that so much in any society. That's where the laws come in.

Originally posted by Infoholic
For Christ's sake, the US military can't even hold Iraq for more than 3 weeks. And they're just throwing stones.

Not to derail the thread, but I'm pretty certain that the U.S. military alone could turn Iraq into either a parking lot or Disneyland real damned quick if they weren't so ham-strung by the political divisiveness and weak leadership going on state-side.

If our corrupted, spineless, self-serving political parties would just let them do their jobs without micro-managing them, I think our military could have everybody dancing around the maypole in Iraq, and I think the entire conflict would've been resolved years ago.

— Doc Velocity

Originally posted by Infoholic

Originally posted by Lilin
Umm... who mentioned the US military? I'm not saying we're useless little fishies waiting in a barrel. I'm not saying people wouldn't fight. What I am saying is that there is a new warfare. Just like we no longer march in straight lines with a fife to the left and drummer to the right, waiting to be shot down row by row. If they really wanted to take people out, they'd do it nice and quiet, there would be poison, there would be sickness, and the kind of capabilities such warfare would require, I betcha our government has in full stock.

Uh... I did? We're talking about the US people standing up to the US government... who stands in the way? US military.

A new warfare that we are all included in on, on some level or another.

They'd do it real nice and quite for a short amount of time, until at least... oh... 90445 (and counting) people began to say something about it and spread the word.

As a member of ATS, I'm certain you've noticed that the government cannot keep everything a secret forever.

Whatever they have in stock, we'll take it from them. After all, it belongs to "us".

Well, fair enough, I know you did. I just meant that's not exactly the facet of the issue I was talking about. I think we're getting on different wavelengths is all.

Lol... yeah, they aren't exactly masterminds of secrecy. But that's the problem isn't it, we don't know what we actually don't know.

As for it only being a secret method for a short time, it's possible. But how many people are dying from disease and bad meds and food recalls etc every day? I don't think it would be too difficult to pass off planned killing as a normal every day sort of death.

Not to mention, warfare goes beyond killing people. There's always a possibility of drugs in the water supply etc. But I'm seriously starting to sound like a paperback now.

The US Government killed 3,000 already. Yes that was pretty bad.

So, now they kill 300,000 and we're supposed to roll over and play dead?

I'm sorry, but that sill leaves 74,700,000 left to fight.

They'll widdle away at who's left, but they'll never take everyone alive. (as ironic as that may sound)

[edit on 3/25/2007 by Infoholic]

Originally posted by Lilin
I'm not sure it's exactly significant how many children die in other ways. Yes, it's a good way of illustrating risk, but any gun related accident with a child is one too many. It's not exactly rare either, I still hear about it all the time.

"X number of children die every day from firearm accidents" is one of those anti-gun statistics brought to the fore by gun control advocates starting back in the late 70s, I believe. Unfortunately, it's not a very compelling statistic when compared to the far more common causes of childhood mortality. More children die in traffic accidents, certainly. More children die every day in America from drowning in unattended 5 gallon buckets, if you can imagine that. More children die from fire, suffocation and choking on food than die from firearms. (Source: National Safety Council, Accident Facts: 2000 Edition, at 10, 11, 18.)

So, where's the push to ban 5 gallon buckets? Where is the criminal punishment for parents whose kids choke to death on a ravioli? Well, obviously, the firearm statistic, weak as it is, is one of those that anti-gunners pulled out of their asses to shock and disturb the general public. Why is it shocking? Because it's so freakishly rare.

Seriously, since the gun safety campaigns of the mid-1970s (which brought us all manner of trigger, cylinder and magazine locks), the rate of death among children by firearms has fallen by 50%, even though gun ownership has increased!

To me, and to many more informed gun owners, the statistical campaigns mounted by anti-gunners are nothing less than fear-mongering propaganda, aimed at an ignorant and impressionable American public who have been conditioned through police state television to flee and cower from firearms and those who use them.

— Doc Velocity

Originally posted by Doc Velocity

Originally posted by Lilin
I'm not sure it's exactly significant how many children die in other ways. Yes, it's a good way of illustrating risk, but any gun related accident with a child is one too many. It's not exactly rare either, I still hear about it all the time.

"X number of children die every day from firearm accidents" is one of those anti-gun statistics brought to the fore by gun control advocates starting back in the late 70s, I believe. Unfortunately, it's not a very compelling statistic when compared to the far more common causes of childhood mortality. More children die in traffic accidents, certainly. More children die every day in America from drowning in unattended 5 gallon buckets, if you can imagine that. More children die from fire, suffocation and choking on food than die from firearms. (Source: National Safety Council, Accident Facts: 2000 Edition, at 10, 11, 18.)

So, where's the push to ban 5 gallon buckets? Where is the criminal punishment for parents whose kids choke to death on a ravioli? Well, obviously, the firearm statistic, weak as it is, is one of those that anti-gunners pulled out of their asses to shock and disturb the general public. Why is it shocking? Because it's so freakishly rare.

Seriously, since the gun safety campaigns of the mid-1970s (which brought us all manner of trigger, cylinder and magazine locks), the rate of death among children by firearms has fallen by 50%, even though gun ownership has increased!

To me, and to many more informed gun owners, the statistical campaigns mounted by anti-gunners are nothing less than fear-mongering propaganda, aimed at an ignorant and impressionable American public who have been conditioned through police state television to flee and cower from firearms and those who use them.

— Doc Velocity

Thanks Doc Velocity, that does clear up a lot about what I hear on both sides of the argument. I guess a part of me still wants to decrease unnecessary suffering as much as possible. But death happens. And the bit about the buckets? Wow, didn't know about that.

Not that I don't trust you or anything like that, I'm just more interested now. Do you have any specific links where I can read up more on this?

If that was to happen here, soliders would get killed just like about 20 of them are per day over in Iraq, but we go bigger guns than they do and a lot more people, so go figure.

Originally posted by Lilin
Not that I don't trust you or anything like that, I'm just more interested now. Do you have any specific links where I can read up more on this?

Well, aside from directing you to the National Safety Council, where you may spend the rest of your natural life studying their endless files, there are places where such statistics are compiled, specifically regarding firearms. I'd recommend taking a look at GunOwners.org for starters.

— Doc Velocity

Originally posted by Doc Velocity

Originally posted by Lilin
Not that I don't trust you or anything like that, I'm just more interested now. Do you have any specific links where I can read up more on this?

Well, aside from directing you to the National Safety Council, where you may spend the rest of your natural life studying their endless files, there are places where such statistics are compiled, specifically regarding firearms. I'd recommend taking a look at GunOwners.org for starters.

— Doc Velocity

Doc,
That is a very intresting site. Thanks. I have bookmarked it for future reference.

I had no idea how many people perished from accidental poisionings.

Even bee stings. Also Narcotics. Very intresting breakdowns.

THanks again fo the site.

Orangetom

Well, allow me to clarify something about kids drowning in buckets — while drowning is the second greatest cause of accidental death among children between the ages of 0 and 14, the 5 gallon bucket danger applies exclusively to toddlers (who happen to be the perfect height to fall into a partially-filled bucket).

— Doc Velocity