"The Whole Silly Flood Story"

reply to post by TheWill


I agree that the Noah story could not have happened as the Bible depicts it. There is no physical way that all those animals, the feed to sustain them, as well as Noah and his family (assuming of course there weren't a select few animals put aside for meals ) could even fit on a boat of the size described in the bible. Whether through embelishments that were added as they were told or for a specific teaching value for the religous followers, I don't nor do I pretend to understand. I have always said there are two types of people involved in religion, there are the Spiritual people that inspire you through their deeds, and then there are the religious people (read: zealot) that scare the hell out of me.

www.sciencedaily.com...
Lost Civilization Under Persian Gulf?

news.discovery.com...

Jeffrey Rose, an archaeologist and researcher with the University of Birmingham in the U.K., says that the area in and around this "Persian Gulf Oasis" may have been host to humans for over 100,000 years before it was swallowed up by the Indian Ocean around 8,000 years ago. Rose's hypothesis introduces a "new and substantial cast of characters" to the human history of the Near East, and suggests that humans may have established permanent settlements in the region thousands of years before current migration models suppose.

In recent years, archaeologists have turned up evidence of a wave of human settlements along the shores of the Gulf dating to about 7,500 years ago. "Where before there had been but a handful of scattered hunting camps, suddenly, over 60 new archaeological sites appear virtually overnight," Rose said. "These settlements boast well-built, permanent stone houses, long-distance trade networks, elaborately decorated pottery, domesticated animals, and even evidence for one of the oldest boats in the world."

But how could such highly developed settlements pop up so quickly, with no precursor populations to be found in the archaeological record? Rose believes that evidence of those preceding populations is missing because it's under the Gulf.

"Perhaps it is no coincidence that the founding of such remarkably well developed communities along the shoreline corresponds with the flooding of the Persian Gulf basin around 8,000 years ago," Rose said. "These new colonists may have come from the heart of the Gulf, displaced by rising water levels that plunged the once fertile landscape beneath the waters of the Indian Ocean."

Historical sea level data show that, prior to the flood, the Gulf basin would have been above water beginning about 75,000 years ago. And it would have been an ideal refuge from the harsh deserts surrounding it, with fresh water supplied by the Tigris, Euphrates, Karun, and Wadi Baton Rivers, as well as by underground springs. When conditions were at their driest in the surrounding hinterlands, the Gulf Oasis would have been at its largest in terms of exposed land area. At its peak, the exposed basin would have been about the size of Great Britain, Rose says.

Evidence is also emerging that modern humans could have been in the region even before the oasis was above water. Recently discovered archaeological sites in Yemen and Oman have yielded a stone tool style that is distinct from the East African tradition. That raises the possibility that humans were established on the southern part of the Arabian Peninsula beginning as far back as 100,000 years ago or more, Rose says. That is far earlier than the estimates generated by several recent migration models, which place the first successful migration into Arabia between 50,000 and 70,000 years ago.

The Gulf Oasis would have been available to these early migrants, and would have provided "a sanctuary throughout the Ice Ages when much of the region was rendered uninhabitable due to hyperaridity," Rose said. "The presence of human groups in the oasis fundamentally alters our understanding of human emergence and cultural evolution in the ancient Near East."

Global Sea-Level Rise at the End of the Last Ice Age Interrupted by Rapid 'Jumps'
www.sciencedaily.com...

Noah's flood began in 6,000 BC Canada, created Persian Gulf
www.hindustantimes.com...

reply to post by Stormdancer777


Alright, a bunch of references without a single mention of why they're relevant. You know, just posting a bunch of external info isn't going to do anything without argumentation to support it.

Anyway...

Soo...a single instance of a flooded civilization means that the whole planet was flooded?

This thread isn't against the existence of catastrophic flooding, but catastrophic flooding is going to work on a much smaller scale than the entire world.

And again, the flood stories in mythology are silly.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul

Wasn't my assertion. Also, it was from a source that I cited three years ago. When I was less rigorous in checking my sources and more naive.

So you admit you were wrong.

Good.

What the hell is a 'kind'?

I don't know exactly.

Perhaps it is related to family or genus, or a syngameon.

The ark was 300cubits long, 50 cubits wide and 30 cubits high. Some think the ancient cubit was 44.5 cm (17.5) others think it was nearer 56 to 61 cm, the ark measured 437 ft 6 inches X 72 ft 11 in. X43 ft 9 in.. The proportion length to width is 6 to 1, which is used by modern naval architects. The ark had three decks which gave it a total of 8,900 sq m or 96,000 sq ft.

Which works out to not enough room.

Around 590 modern train cars could have fit into the ark.

Yep...and how would you get enough vitamin C for a family on year's voyage without refrigeration?

How about dehydration?

God salted the Earth. Covering all the soil in the world with saltwater for a year? Yeah, nothing is going to grow after that for a long, long time.

Like maybe 200 years?



There wood (pun intended) have been alot of floating debris. Perhaps seeds hitched a ride. Seeds could have also been buried and resurfaced later, much, much later.

200 year old seeds grow

Seeds as old as 2000 years can survive and grow.




Perhaps all the animals didn't hibernate.

But the seeds sure could have.

reply to post by dusty1


1) I don't think how much "2 of every kind" would take up. 590 train wagons aren't nearly enough, lol. Keep in mind, that space also has to store all the food for the family/animals. Do you have any idea how much elephants eat?

2) A lot of animals need vitamin C...are you saying all the food was dehydrated so that the family and all animals have enough vitamin C? LOL, seriously?

3) Yeah, showing mangroves, one of the few plant species that can deal with salt water is a good way to show everything would grow again after it was drowned in salt water. Laughable!

4) There's still the tiny little problem of not having ANY SEDIMENT EVIDENCE that would support a global flood. If it happened, there would be sediment evidence...but there isn't. That alone shows how silly the whole thing is.

The flood story and the guy who survived in a whale story have to be the 2nd and 3rd funniest bible blunders...right after the talking snake. I love the talking snake, Eddie Murphy should definitely lend his voice if they ever make a cartoon

reply to post by MrXYZ

1) I don't think how much "2 of every kind" would take up. 590 train wagons aren't nearly enough, lol. Keep in mind, that space also has to store all the food for the family/animals. Do you have any idea how much elephants eat?

They are called train cars.

Hay consumption is 28-30 kg per day for an elephant.

A juvenile elephant could have been fed a high fiber hay alternative.

Only 11% of animals on the Ark were substantially larger than sheep.

everything would grow again after it was drowned in salt water. Laughable!

Ever heard of a Polder?

In this way the marsh is cut off from salt water and, as happens in the Dutch polders, any remaining salt in the soil is gradually washed out by the rain. Grass is planted eventually and after some years of grazing cattle or sheep the soil may be suitable for crops, and heavy yields can be obtained from the fertile, silty soil. Land reclamation from the sea has been on only a small scale in England, but has been carried out to such a large extent in the Netherlands that new farms, villages and road networks have been established on land that was once permanently under salt water.

Reclaiming land from the sea

reply to post by dusty1


You do realize there's a difference between humans making a TINY stretch of land fertile again...and doing it with the whole planet, right?

And what about the fact that there is NO SEDIMENT EVIDENCE for a global flood, none at all. If the flood had happened, we'd have sedimental evidence!

reply to post by MrXYZ

You do realize there's a difference between humans making a TINY stretch of land fertile again...and doing it with the whole planet, right?

Ah, I see.

So you believe in the scientific method only when it suits your ideology?

I prove to you that humans have conducted an experiment, not in a lab, but in the real world, that land can be used for growing things after salt water is removed.

But for you this proof is too "tiny".

So according to this rule of thumb, all laboratory experiments should be thrown out.

Because, you do realize there is a big difference between a "tiny" laboratory experiment and the whole world, right?



Once again the goalpost is moved.

reply to post by dusty1


Are you seriously claiming the descendants of the guys on the ship terraformed the entire world to make it possible for plants to grow again???

reply to post by dusty1


We're not saying that reclamation from the sea is impossible, we're saying that it would be impossible for bronze age individuals to reclaim the whole planet, especially since there was only a single human family on board the vessel and the world is incredibly large.

There is also no geological evidence to show that there was a global flood or a global effort to reclaim the world from the adverse effects of a global flood.

Hell, anywhere that was near a body of saltwater would have had its fields salted for a whole year.

And here's a crazy thing, I live in a nation that has reclaimed a lot of land from the sea. We don't...actually, we can't use that land for farming. We use it for...yacht marinas...and...urban areas...

reply to post by MrXYZ

Are you seriously claiming the descendants of the guys on the ship terraformed the entire world to make it possible for plants to grow again???

With that comment I can see that you will be no fun on any future terraforming missions.

How about rainwater?

reply to post by madnessinmysoul

We're not saying that reclamation from the sea is impossible, we're saying that it would be impossible for bronze age individuals to reclaim the whole planet, especially since there was only a single human family on board the vessel and the world is incredibly large.

In Australia where there is a problem of sodic soils there are plantings of certain species that absorb the salt into their leaves to reduce the level in the soil. These can then be culled and the soil used. This may not be practical on a small scale though! Or if your in a hurry! The types of plants used are saltbushes, atriplex, myoporums, and some melaleucas although all countries have their own salt - tolerant species. Most are fast growing and small. In the meantime you could try growing asparagus... you are supposed to add salt when planting! Read more: wiki.answers.com...

In the biblical Book of Job, mallûḥa (מַלּ֣וּחַ, probably Mediterranean Saltbush, A. halimus, the major culinary saltbush in the region) is mentioned as food eaten by social outcasts (Job 30:4[4]). Grey Saltbush (A. cinerea) is used as bushfood in Australia since prehistoric times. Chamiso (A. canescens) and Shadscale (A. confertifolia) were eaten by Native Americans, and Spearscale (A. hastata) was a food in rural Eurasia.

Meat from sheep which have grazed on saltbush has surprisingly high levels of vitamin E, is leaner and more hydrated than regular lamb and has consumer appeal equal to grain-fed lamb.[citation needed] The vitamin E levels could have animal health benefits while extending the shelf-life and maintaining the fresh red colour of saltbush lamb. This effect has been demonstrated for Old Man Saltbush (A. nummularia) and River Saltbush (A. amnicola). For reasons unknown, sheep seem to prefer the more fibrous, less nutritious River Saltbush.[

Atriplex




Hey, could someone please pass the salt?

reply to post by dusty1


So today we are able to grow a select few plants on reclaimed land...and some animals can live there. How does that in any way prove that ALL animals could have survived in that way?

Either way, the thing that proves that a global flood didn't happen is that there is ZERO sediment evidence. A global flood would leave some sediments as evidence...but there's none. So all the other "the arch fit that many animals", or "animals can live on salt deserts" discussions since one of the main prerequisites isn't fulfilled.

reply to post by MrXYZ

So all the other "the arch fit that many animals", or "animals can live on salt deserts" discussions since one of the main prerequisites isn't fulfilled.

Well if the "arch" fits.........

So why was the salinity of the soil even brought up?

Originally posted by dusty1
reply to post by MrXYZ

 

So all the other "the arch fit that many animals", or "animals can live on salt deserts" discussions since one of the main prerequisites isn't fulfilled.

Well if the "arch" fits.........

So why was the salinity of the soil even brought up?

I dunno, the lack of sediment evidence kinda makes it clear that whole flood story is nothing but hogwash...thread should have ended the first time someone mentioned that fact

Originally posted by MrXYZ

Originally posted by dusty1
reply to post by MrXYZ

 

I dunno, the lack of sediment evidence kinda makes it clear that whole flood story is nothing but hogwash...thread should have ended the first time someone mentioned that fact

Sediment? How about this:

"One of the most fascinating bodies of evidence is provided by animal remains found in caves, especially in Europe, Asia, South American and Australasia. These usually consist of chaotic agglutinated piles of disjointed bones of a variety of species that could never have co-existed in the same environment - tropical species in northern graveyards and northern species at many equatorial sites. Bird remains in Californian tar-pits illustrate this anomaly even more tellingly. We can only conclude that a vast cataclysm brought about such global carnage."

www.knowledge.co.uk...

It seems that many of you are arguing the whole earth being covered with water at the same time. How about water rising in one place and receding in another. Tsunamis have been mentioned which would explain the heaps of bones in caves and river bottoms. What is not mentioned is that all of them show evidence of the water having come from the Northwest. The cave openings are all on the NW side of hills and mountains.

also consider this:

"The authors correlate much relevant information from various disciplines on a theme-by-theme basis, enabling us to picture the course of events as they unfolded. Many traditions, for example, speak of intense cold, conflagration, terrific winds, flaming fragments dropping from the skies, floods and torrents of rain which were directly associated with significant events and with a period of great and prolonged darkness, which quickly followed a world-wide Deluge. These traditions are not only consistent with one another, but also reflect the sequence of physical processes and effects as defined and supported by geophysical knowledge. Furthermore, they largely coincide with the effects that astrophysicists would expecpect in the event of a close hostile cosmic fly-by. "

From:

When the Earth Nearly Died
Compelling Evidence of A Catastrophic World Change 9,500 BC
(c) 1995 by By D S Allan and J B Delair. 386pp.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Republished in 1997 as
"Cataclysm : Compelling Evidence of a Cosmic Catastrophe in 9500 B. C."

www.knowledge.co.uk...

Originally posted by OhZone
also consider this:

"The authors correlate much relevant information from various disciplines on a theme-by-theme basis, enabling us to picture the course of events as they unfolded. Many traditions, for example, speak of intense cold, conflagration, terrific winds, flaming fragments dropping from the skies, floods and torrents of rain which were directly associated with significant events and with a period of great and prolonged darkness, which quickly followed a world-wide Deluge. These traditions are not only consistent with one another, but also reflect the sequence of physical processes and effects as defined and supported by geophysical knowledge. Furthermore, they largely coincide with the effects that astrophysicists would expecpect in the event of a close hostile cosmic fly-by. "

From:

When the Earth Nearly Died
Compelling Evidence of A Catastrophic World Change 9,500 BC
(c) 1995 by By D S Allan and J B Delair. 386pp.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Republished in 1997 as
"Cataclysm : Compelling Evidence of a Cosmic Catastrophe in 9500 B. C."

www.knowledge.co.uk...

Of course ancient civilizations speak of great colds (winter, duh...still happens today, and even today the media talk about it all the time), great heat (omg, hot summer...all over the news), horrible storms, and so on. The thing is, it's not as if all cultures worldwide would have written about all that happening AT THE SAME TIME ALL OVER THE WORLD. They obviously haven't done so because it simply wasn't raining all over the planet at once, just like there were no storms all over the planet at once...that's not how weather works.

As for the animal remains, what stopped those animals from getting lost in that cave, dying, and then being discovered 500 years (or 2000 years) later by some other animal that then also died there?

When I talk about sediment evidence, I'm talking about this and not some random bones of animals that got lost or fell into a tar pit

Also, the authors of that book are prime examples of pseudo-scientists. They claim a 10k year timeframe because that's the "oldest ice drilled in Greenland"...totally ignoring that we found ice older than 160,000 years up in Russia, and there's likely places with even older ice allowing us to tell a lot about the atmosphere during that time.

In short, the authors of that book are the Richard Hoagland's of religion

reply to post by MrXYZ


They are not talking about random bones...they are talking about massive amounts jumbled up in one spot.

You didn't read the article.
Read it all and then comment. Better still get the book as it has the details.

Under the circumstances described it could be raining in most of the world at about the same time.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/349b11b4f90c.jpg[/atsimg]

I never get anything ! I never get my way !

I believe in the philosophy and even the historical significance of the Great Flood...

Another hole in the story..

Why wasn't there a "Big Dry" as well. I mean why should all the sea life get a free ticket and more room to swim in but let all land based animals drown.

Why wasn't a big fish tank built by Noah to hold all samples of sea life while the whole world dried up.

As a story goes, Noah and all his samples should have been sent to heaven while God cleansed the earth. But instead they took a ride in a boat ?