"The Whole Silly Flood Story"

I found another great reason that I was previously unaware of as to why the flood story is incredibly silly, the ark itself. I always forget that the ship is actually described in the story and was referred by a friend who happens to work in nautical engineering (I live on an island, lots of boats here) to a video that explained it all quite well. Without further adieu:

"To Build an Ark pt 1"



"To Build an Ark pt 2"

I never see any links between the Noah´s flood and the Chinese stories about the epic floods. In my opinion they talk about the same global flooding and it certainly was real:

en.wikipedia.org...

Epic flood
Image is a section of a known artwork about the flood

According to Chinese mythology a Great Flood occurred in an event generally known as Da Yu zhi shui (大禹治水), or Great Yu controls the waters.[12] The earliest text to contain info about the flood is the Shang Shu.[12]

From the beginning of the flood, Yu's father, Gun, was assigned by Yao to tame the raging waters.[5] In 9 years, Gun had built earthen dikes all over the land in the hope of containing the waters.[5] But during a period of heavy flooding, the earthen dikes collapsed everywhere and the project failed miserably. Yao then handed the rulership to Shun who went to supervise the flood control. In seeing the failure, Shun executed Gun.[5] He then recruited Yu as successor to his father's flood-control efforts.[5] Two officials (伯益), (后稷) and a large group of workers were also sent down to be commanded by Yu.[5][13] Instead of building more dikes, Yu had a different plan. He began to dredge new river channels, to serve both as outlets for the torrential waters, and as irrigation conduits to distant rivers, then to distant seas.[5] At the time there was a Mount Longmen at the Yellow river where a very narrow channel existed and blocked water heading east.[5] Yu brought a large number of workers to open up this channel. This opening have been known ever since as the legendary "Yu's doorway" (禹門口).[5]

Because of this success, people respected him later and referred to Yu as "Big Yu", literally "Yu the Great".[5] The people in his tribes were also called "Xia (夏)", so he was renamed to Xia Yu (夏禹).[5] It is also known that he sacrificed a great deal of his body to control the floods. His entire hands were filled with thick callus, and his feet were completely padded.[5] His toe nails have all fallen off.[5] His shin have no sweat glands left.[5] Many were said to have cried for Yu who not only sacrificed his body but spent 13 years dealing with the floods.[5][14]

After Yu was given the task of fighting the flood, he had been married only four days.[9] He said goodbye to his wife, saying that he did not know when he will return. During the 13 years of flood, he passed by his own family's doorstep three times.[9] Each time he did not go into his own home.[9][12] The first time he passed by hearing that his wife was in labor.[9] The second time he passed by, his son could already call out to his father. His family urged him to return home, but he said it was impossible as the flood was still going on.[15] The third time passing by, his son was older than 10 years old.[15] Each time, Yu refused to go in the door, saying that the flood was rendering countless people homeless, he could not rest in his own.
[edit] The Nine Provinces
Nine Zhou
Main articles: Nine Provinces (China) and Nine Tripod Cauldrons

For the engineering feat of managing the flood, Yu has been remembered as an examplar of perseverance and determination and revered as the perfect civil servant. Stories continue to dwell on his single-minded dedication. Shun was so impressed by Yu's engineering work and diligence that he passed the throne to Yu instead of to his own son.[14] Everyone agreed, and Shun soon died.[14] In 2070 BCE Yu took over this leadership, and created what would later become the Xia Dynasty (ca.2070 BCE - 1600 BCE).[2] With his son Qi to follow on the leadership, this will eventually become China's first dynasty.[2] In the 8th year of his reign, Yu met at Mount Miao (苗山) and declared that he wanted his tribe to be more than a tribe, that he wanted to become a king of a nation.[16] According to the "夏書·禹貢" section of the Book of History, Yu divided the world into nine zhou or provinces. These were Jizhou (冀州), Yanzhou (兗州), Qingzhou (青州), Xuzhou (徐州), Yangzhou (揚州), Jingzhou (荊州), Yuzhou (豫州), Liangzhou (梁州) and Yongzhou (雍州).[17]

According to the Rites of Zhou there was no Xuzhou or Liangzhou, instead there was Youzhou (幽州) and Bingzhou (并州). According to the Erya there was no Qingzhou or Liangzhou, instead there was Youzhou (幽州) and Yingzhou (營州).[17] Either way there were nine divisions. Once he received bronze metal from these nine territories, he created ding vessels called the Nine Tripod Cauldrons.[18] Yu then established his capital at Yang City (陽城).[19] According to the Bamboo Annals Yu killed one of the northern leaders, Fangfeng (防風氏) to reinforce his hold on the throne.[20][21]

reply to post by Gaussq


Funny how they can claim it's a global flood without even knowing how large the world is

Local floods aren't global floods...especially if we have no objective proof of a global flood

reply to post by Gaussq


The Chinese epic floods aren't told of as global floods...because they weren't.


Where is the geologic evidence of the global flood?

How'd the Grand Canyon get there? You can't explain that.

reply to post by MrXYZ


Actually, that's the point. Because these people didn't travel, and didn't know how big the world is, then when their one little valley - in which they spend their entire lives - floods, it seems as if it is the whole world that has flooded.

reply to post by Essan


Which should make anyone with a brain think about the validity of their other beliefs

*cough* talking snakes *cough*

Originally posted by Essan
reply to post by MrXYZ

 

Actually, that's the point. Because these people didn't travel, and didn't know how big the world is, then when their one little valley - in which they spend their entire lives - floods, it seems as if it is the whole world that has flooded.

This thread is not arguing that the flood story is not based in its distant past on the experience of an actual flood.
It's arguing that the story of a little family building a huge boat and collecting 2 of every animal and bird in the world and all surviving for ~10 months while a massive world-wide flood covered even the highest mountain-tops is absolute bollocks.

Yes, big floods have happened. Myths arose from the retelling of these stories. An insanely exaggerated version of these myths is recorded in the bible. This, in itself, is not a problem. The problem is that some people believe every word of the bible is literally correct, including the flood myth, and attempt to foist their beliefs onto the rest of the world by the teaching of their myths, such as creationism, in science classes.

Thus it becomes necessary to prove that myth is myth.

reply to post by Kailassa


This is more or less what I'm trying to say. There are people who take the story as fact rather than as a distorted tale of a 'large' flood which happened in a local area given divine import.

I mean: kangaroos. That should be enough to point out the problem with the story.

New objection, just off the top of my head: Where's the tree ring data?

In the last few hundred years, scientists have been gathering tree ring data from incredibly ancient trees that shows all sorts of things about ancient climate. Why don't trees from different parts of the world all have a ring for a year when they were all submerged in salt water? There are certainly several trees that were and still are old enough to provide such data, yet it's entirely absent.

So, where's this tree ring data that would provide evidence that everything was submerged for about a year?

reply to post by madnessinmysoul

New objection, just off the top of my head: Where's the tree ring data?

Here ya go.

The Baobab tree species in Africa is supposedly the longest living species of trees in the world. Unfortunately the species do not form consistent annual growth rings, and radiocarbon dating is sometimes ineffective

List of Oldest Trees

Name↓ Age (years)↓ Species↓ Location↓ Notes↓ Sunland Baobab 6,000 (controversial) Baobab Northern Province, South Africa Baobabs don't produce annual growth rings so radiocarbon dating is used to determine age[13] Prometheus 5,000 Great Basin bristlecone pine Nevada, United States cut down in 1964 Methuselah 4,800 Great Basin bristlecone pine California, United States Sarv-e-Abarkooh 4,000 Mediterranean cypress Abarkuh, Iran also called "Zoroastrian Sarv"[14][15][16] Llangernyw Yew 4,000 Common yew Llangernyw, Wales Tisbury Yew Tree 4,000 Yew Tisbury, England [17] Alerce 3,600 Fitzroya cupressoides Chile [18] Senator 3,500 Pond cypress Florida, United States [19] Jardine Juniper 3,200 Juniperus scopulorum Utah, United States [20] General Noble 3,200 Giant sequoia California, United States Cut for the 1893 World's Fair, age established by ring count. Its stump is known as the Chicago Stump Cormac's Tree 3,000 Olive Sardinia, Italy [21] Patriarca da Floresta 3,000 Cariniana legalis Brazil Probably oldest non-conifer in Brazil Alishan Sacred Tree 3,000 Formosan Cypress Taiwan collapsed on July 1, 1997 following heavy rainstorms[22] ? 2,600 Fitzroya cupressoides Los Alerces National Park, Neuquen, Argentina At 57m, probably the tallest tree in South America (but it is believed that some examples of this species reach 60m or even more than 70). The forests of this species are the longest community of living tree (average age: 2500 years) Chestnut Tree of One Hundred Horses 2,000 - 4,000 Chestnut Sicily General Sherman 2,500 Giant sequoia California, United States Jōmon Sugi 2,170 - 7,200 Sugi Yakushima, Japan Girth of 16.4 Meters, estimated to be between 2,170 and 7,200 years old. Exact dating is made difficult by the rotten core of the trunk.[23][24] Great sugi of Kayano 2,300 Sugi Kaga, Ishikawa, Japan Girth of 9.6m, estimated the age to be 2,300 years in 1928. One of the four trees believed to be sacred in the precincts in a Shinto shrine Jaya Sri Maha Bodhi 2,300 Sacred fig Sri Lanka A sapling from the historical Bodhi tree under which Buddha became enlightened. It was planted in 288 BC, and is the oldest living human-planted tree in the world with a known planting date. Fortingall Yew 2,000 - 5,000 Common yew Perthshire, Scotland Ballyconnell Yew 2,000 - 5,000 Common yew Annagh, Ballyconnell, Ireland Oldest tree in Ireland and possibly in Europe. Olive tree of Vouves 2,000 - 5,000 Olive Kolymvari, Crete, Greece oldest olive tree in the world[25] Sose's Tree 2,000 Platanus Shusha, Artsakh 44 m2 hollow in trunk. Oldest tree in Artsakh.[26] Te Matua Ngahere 2,000 - 3,000 Kauri Northland, New Zealand Oldest tree in New Zealand Lady Liberty 2,000 Bald cypress Florida, United States In the same park as The Senator tree above at 3,500 years old. Stara Maslina 2,000 Olive Bar Montenegro ? 2,000 Olive Pedras del Rei, Portugal oldest olive tree in Portugal[27] ? 2,000 Olive Exo Hora, Zakynthos, Greece [28] ? 2,000 Yew Sochi, Russia a grove known to possess several 2,000-year-old specimens.[29] The Pechanga Great Oak Tree 2,000 Coast live oak Temecula, California, United States oldest oak tree in US, possibly in World

Excellent post Madness.

You make me think.

There isn't tree ring data earlier than 5,000 years ago hmmmmm.........

reply to post by dusty1


Um...because trees, even the ancient ones, aren't organisms that live for any longer. What I'm saying is that consistent ringed trees should have evidence of a global flood.

Of course, instead you're just going to make the off-hand comment that it makes you think that we don't have any tree ring data older than 5000 years...well, we have all sorts of other data that's a lot older than 5000 years.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul

"To Build an Ark pt 1"

Interesting video.

Apparently Noah was smarter than the guys that made the youtube video.

I can't wait to see there next video.

"To Build a Pyramid pt 1"

reply to post by madnessinmysoul

I mean: kangaroos. That should be enough to point out the problem with the story.

Question.

How did horses get to North America?

reply to post by dusty1

Originally posted by dusty1
reply to post by madnessinmysoul

 

"To Build an Ark pt 1"

Interesting video.

Apparently Noah was smarter than the guys that made the youtube video.

Wow, that's an idiotic response. You're saying that the video which disproves that such a ship made of wood could have been sea worthy just proves that Noah, the guy whose boat hasn't been proven to have even existed, must have been smarter?

I'm sorry, but there's no way to account for the forces that would act upon so massive a ship (and such a ship still wouldn't have been big enough to contain 2 [or 7] of every animal.

Just...general logic fail. Instead of putting forth an actual rebuttal to an incredibly well put together video which is full of great factual data you just go "Lol, Noah was smarter than those idiots!"

I can't wait to see there next video.

"To Build a Pyramid pt 1"

We can do that. Hell, we know that those things exist. We can even see the failed attempts prior to Cheops. We've even found descriptions of how they did it. We found the burial spots of the workers who built them, we've realized that a lot of people got injured and we know what the most common injuries are.

reply to post by dusty1


Evolution and migration, same way people did. How would Noah have gotten them there? And why isn't there the evidence in there or any other gene pool of bottlenecking at the exact same time?

reply to post by madnessinmysoul

Wow, that's an idiotic response. You're saying that the video which disproves that such a ship made of wood could have been sea worthy just proves that Noah, the guy whose boat hasn't been proven to have even existed, must have been smarter?

Ouch. These guys spent most of the video talking about ships with an entirely different design.

Evolution and migration, same way people did. How would Noah have gotten them there? And why isn't there the evidence in there or any other gene pool of bottlenecking at the exact same time?

That, I assume, is the answer to my question as to how horses got to North America.

The horse came from the Spanish in the south and west, and the gun came from the French and English, and later the Americans, in the north and east. Whichever tribe possessed either or both of these items had a significant, if temporary, advantage over its neighbors.

Horses in North America

For some reason horses were wiped out in North America and were re introduced by the Spanish.

Simple answer is that people brought them in ships to North America.

Apart from the silliness of claiming the people back then could fit "2 of each kind" in a single boat, including food, and their family...and then subsequently repopulate the earth through incest and spreading animals around the entire world, we still have ZERO evidence that would suggest a global flood.

The first step would be to provide credible evidence for a global flood. Because if you can't, it's a clear sign that the story is hogwash.

Next would be to prove that the people back then could fit 2 of each kind in a boat. So far I haven't seen a single credible explanation. And lastly, you'd have to prove that they were able to spread out all those animals throughout the globe.

The entire story is so ridiculous, arguing it really happened exactly like that is silly. If you'd say there was a LOCAL flood, and one family saved the animals on their farm by having a boat handy...sure, that's possible...but talking about a global flood just because it fits the narrative makes people look incredibly silly

So, for those who believe the story's true, please provide proof of the following:

1) Global flood
2) Arch design: show how it was able to fit millions of different animals...and food for months.
3) Dispersal: show how the people back then were able to repopulate the entire planet reaching places like New Zealand, Australia, Asia, and all the continents.

Before those 3 points are proven, the entire story is nothing but pure fiction similar to Harry Potter.

I have no doubt that a flood occurred back then. Too many different cultures have flood stories for it not to be true. Although they vary, they are basically the same. I think the flood story came from one source, but as time passed it migrated with people and, as stories do over time, changed.

My guess is that this flood happened to one civilization. Some of the people of this civilization survived and went to various corners of the earth. When they arrived, they told the indigenous people about their past land and what happened to it and each culture fit it to their beliefs. In my opinion this makes more sense.

Why do you have to belittle peoples' beliefs? I'm sure you could have stated your opinion without doing that. A little respect goes a long way.

reply to post by dusty1

Originally posted by dusty1
reply to post by madnessinmysoul

 

Wow, that's an idiotic response. You're saying that the video which disproves that such a ship made of wood could have been sea worthy just proves that Noah, the guy whose boat hasn't been proven to have even existed, must have been smarter?

Ouch. These guys spent most of the video talking about ships with an entirely different design.

Ouch? You must have only watched a bit of it, or maybe only the first part. It talked about basics of ship building with an explanation for the different designs, basically to show that the design of the ark is not very intelligent.

Evolution and migration, same way people did. How would Noah have gotten them there? And why isn't there the evidence in there or any other gene pool of bottlenecking at the exact same time?

That, I assume, is the answer to my question as to how horses got to North America.

And how would Noah have gotten all the animals in the first place? And what the hell happened to the plants? And why is there no genetic evidence for the bottlenecking of the genepools of every species on Earth?

The horse came from the Spanish in the south and west, and the gun came from the French and English, and later the Americans, in the north and east. Whichever tribe possessed either or both of these items had a significant, if temporary, advantage over its neighbors.

Horses in North America

You do realize that horse-like species existed in the Americas prior to Western reintroduction, right?
For some reason horses were wiped out in North America and were re introduced by the Spanish.

Simple answer is that people brought them in ships to North America.

Well, the modern variant. The pre-European horse population wasn't brought over by ship.


Of course, this does nothing to support your claim.

reply to post by Throwback

Originally posted by Throwback
I have no doubt that a flood occurred back then.

Even in the face of absolutely no evidence?

Too many different cultures have flood stories for it not to be true.

Really? Could it just be that humans tend to settle near water and areas with water tend to flood so people told stories about a mythical 'big flood' (rarely global in mythology)?

Although they vary, they are basically the same.

[citation needed]

I think the flood story came from one source, but as time passed it migrated with people and, as stories do over time, changed.

Believe what you will, but there's absolutely no physical evidence for something that should have tons of it.

My guess is that this flood happened to one civilization.

So it wasn't a global flood? Oh...well, that makes more sense. Pretty much every culture experienced some sort of flooding. Granted, that's just because people settle near bodies of water.

Some of the people of this civilization survived and went to various corners of the earth. When they arrived, they told the indigenous people about their past land and what happened to it and each culture fit it to their beliefs. In my opinion this makes more sense.

Except that it makes little sense and has no evidence to back it up.

Why do you have to belittle peoples' beliefs?

Because you have every right to hold whatever belief you want, but you have no right to compel others to respect that belief. Some beliefs are stupid.

I'm sure you could have stated your opinion without doing that. A little respect goes a long way.

It's a ridiculous idea. Deserving of ridicule. Not deserving of respect.

I respect people, and even that only goes so far as basic respect unless otherwise earned.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul

You do realize that horse-like species existed in the Americas prior to Western reintroduction, right? For some reason horses were wiped out in North America and were re introduced by the Spanish.

Umm.. you mean like in the article I linked? You read the article, good for you!

I wonder what wiped out those original horses "8,000 to 10,000 years ago"?

Seems really close to the Bibles time line.

Well, the modern variant. The pre-European horse population wasn't brought over by ship

How do you know that for certain?

Modern horses (and other things) were brought to North America by ships.

That is my point.

Because you have every right to hold whatever belief you want, but you have no right to compel others to respect that belief. Some beliefs are stupid.

It's a ridiculous idea. Deserving of ridicule. Not deserving of respect. I respect people, and even that only goes so far as basic respect unless otherwise earned.

This is where you really look bad, Madness.

You get on ATS and goad people into these discussions to mock and ridicule their "stupid" beliefs.

Grow Up.

Are you a scientist? Do you perform scientific experiments? Do you implement the scientific method on a daily basis?

Do you practice what you preach?

I am sick of hearing armchair scientists blather on and on about evidence that they have never seen for themselves.

Or the cultist who thinks Dawkins is their savior.

I have respect for you if you are a doer of science. However, I may disagree with interpretation of data.

Spare me the unemployed dude who live in his moms flat, with 2 semesters of college biology under his belt, and wants to explain the mysteries of the universe to me.

I don't have all the answers.

Guess what? Science doesn't either.

Go invent something. Cure a disease. Discover an alternate energy.

Oh, no wait, just sit on your fat butt drinkin' a beer and ridicule someones "stupid beliefs", and just talk about science..............