Mi-28 or Ka-52?

Isn't flying a single seater assault chopper like ka-50 rated as probably the most difficult job in the world? I'd put those out of service if I'd have an army

that is why ka-52 was made. pilots flying ka-50s in combat got exhausted. working in groups you get more firepower with less men than flying all copters two menned.

It sounds like what you are saying is that flying with two guys = less firepower, more tired.

Which is the exact opposite of the poster above you?

Regardless, I think I understand what you are trying to say. ;]

Both helicopters are very nice. I haven't researched enough to discover which has the best electronics or survivability, how many databuses, redundant systems, etc.

Russian Soldier, what branch are you signing up for and do you get to pick a specific field for training? I know next to nothing about the internal working of the Russian military. I would love to stay in touch to hear your opinion about your country's military. My only experience with the Russian military was in Pusan North Korea. I shared a few drinks with some Russian sailors. Well my carrier was tracked all the way across to Alaska via the Aluetian Islands by a Russian submarine.

I would be interested in the pay, rank system, and training you receive. It's good to see Russia begining to prosper again let's just hope our countries leaders have some common sense and not square off again.

Mi-24/35 is still one of the most weapons heavy heli platforms out there..

That is correct. The amount of sheer firepower and protection that the Hind provide is still unmatched in a troop carrying helo.

kaskad is correct there as well.

Mercs from all over the world buy and retrofit Hinds instead of any other western helo. Why? Cheaper, more reliable, better armored, a ton of firepower, etc.

Most merc Hinds used in African/Asian conflicts were outfitted with French/Israeli hardware.


Russian Soldier is way of base here;

[quite] but in today's warfare it is OBSOLETE due to its lack of manuevariblity, huge size, and light armor. Yes it is heavily armed, and yes, I've seen the newer versions with those huge engines and the same missiles that are on the Mi-28, but for a country like Russia, it is no longer needed, other countries of the world can make use for it, but Russia has 2 better machines, the Ka-52, and Mi-28 which were BUILT to replace it.

Wrong on all accounts, I recommend a little reading on the subject.

Hind held a speed record for a long time. It is so maneuverable, that pilots are trained not to exceed the limits do to possibility of boom/main rotor flex, which results in sheering of the tail rotor blades.

Hind is HUGE when compared to dedicated attack helos, and further armoring the tail boom will make it too heavy for its troop lifting missions.

The aircraft was operated extensively during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, mainly for bombing Mujahideen fighters. The US supplied heat-seeking Stinger missiles to the Mujahideen, and the Soviet Mi-8 and Mi-24 helicopters proved to be favorite targets of the rebels.

At the beginning of the conflict Soviet aircraft were not fitted with flares and air ducts simply because the enemy did not posses IR SAM capability.

When CIA armed Afghanistan insurgents and mercs with Stingers, Hind proved to be especially vulnerable since its fuel tanks were located close to the engine exhaust. Upon impact the Stinger detonated the fuel tank, which resulted in catastrophic failure of the airframe.

When the Stinger problem was identified, all Soviet aircraft involved were outfitted with flare dispensers and other IR countermeasures, thus greatly reducing Stinger threat.

Engines, fuel tanks and fire extinguishing systems of the SU-25 and the Hind were redesigned and up armored in order to increase survivability when hit by an IR SAM.

Such designs proved them selves in Chechen conflict against new generation of IR shoulder fired SAMs. Chechens were forced to engage slower and unprotected hellos such as Mi-8/26 from close range in order to assure a hit.

Mi-24 suffered the least losses to IR SAMs.

Here’s a picture of Chechen mercs with Igla, Strela and a Stinger;

en.wikipedia.org...:Chechen_rebels.jpg

Hind is vital to Russian forces. It assures an extremely effective low capacity troop transport since it provides unmatched firepower and armor protection.

Isn't flying a single seater assault chopper like ka-50 rated as probably the most difficult job in the world? I'd put those out of service if I'd have an army

that is why ka-52 was made. pilots flying ka-50s in combat got exhausted. working in groups you get more firepower with less men than flying all copters two menned.

Wrong on both accounts.

KA-52 was designed as a trainer with full combat capability. Russians have a habit of designing fully combat capable trainer when it is possible. SU-27UB is one such example.

KA-50 was specifically designed as a single seater do to its high levels of system integration and automation. Since the KA-52 is a two seater, it freed the second to process tactical data and act as a CAC link for KA-50s.

It’s a reoccurring theme in any given Russian organizational structure. Same thing with tanks fighters/interceptors and so forth.

Currently both KA-50/52 and Mi-28 are in service.

Mi-28 is a cheap, mass produced back bone while the Hokum family represents a high tech, expensive and much more capable special purpose solution.

Kamovs coaxial solution proved to be much more capable then the standard single rotor design when operated in difficult mountainous regions.

Hokum was extensively tested in Chechnya, and outperformed Mi-28 in every respect.

Do to its coaxial rotors Hokum is so maneuverable that it’s capable of attack maneuvers no other helo can perform.

While Hokum is a clear performance winner, its higher cost is a major factor when it comes to questions of its mass production.

Mi-28 shares its design with Mi-24, rotor/engines etc, so its mass production does not require retooling of the factories.

Mass production of Hokum will require either extensive retooling of existing facilities, or building of brand new factories.

As it stands, in order to provide high-tech, high performance capability, Hokums are manufactured on a limited scale in existing facilities, while the Havoc is a much cheaper, mass produced design.

How exactly is my quote wrong? I'm no expert and haven't done really that much research but I do remember some documentary or such where it was said that it was extremely demanding for a human to fly a chopper and operate weapons at the same time. Also at the same time ID'n threats, navigating and communicating so I'd put my money down that it has to be one of the hardest things to do for a human

How exactly is my quote wrong? I'm no expert and haven't done really that much research

Do some research and you will find the answer your own question.

To be fair, the KA 50 is the better one off the two but the Mil 28 isnt that bad either because it is a continued development off the "monster" AKA Mil 24/35 and that says it all.

Two top attack copters who are with ease stand proud in the top 5.

The KA 50 for the tactical commando sneak operations and the Mil 28 for the brute destruction off its enemy`s.

They both complement each other.

Cheers

Mi-24/35/28 are top attack, KA-50/52 are sneak and peek nap of the earth hunter killers.

Russians followed US Cobra/Apache approach. Cobra is a cost effective top attacker which evolved from the existing airframe, and the Apache is the dedicated, expensive high-tech hunter killer.

Mil family helos are designed to operate as a part of a total force. SAM cover and air superiority is a given, thus allowing top-attack profile.

Top attack approach does not require high tech sights, avionics and fire control systems, thus greatly reducing per unit end cost.


HOKUMs coax rotors and high tech avionics give it greater lift which greatly improves stability and maneuverability. Advanced sights and FCS were designed for all weather operation.

Fundamental difference between Havoc and Hokum lies in different AT weapons used.

Havoc uses 9M120 Ataka-V system, while Hokum uses 9K121 Vikhr

Ataka-V is a radio guided SACLOS, while Vikhr is laser guided. Entirely different systems.

Radar guided fire and forget proved less then reliable, and especially in ECM conditions.

Ataka-V narrow beam radar guidance requires tracking of the target until impact, it looses accuracy as the range extends, but does provide higher countermeasure resistance then mmw radar fire and forget.

Vikhr is not a typical laser beam rider, it does not have an optical nose seeker, but instead has sensors in the tail.

It is the most countermeasure proof design since it’s the only one that receives targeting data directly from the signal carrier. Targeting data is continuously updated through out the flight to the target.

Currently it is the most accurate system, providing pinpoint target hit probability as high as 0.95 against stationary targets. It is also the fastest missile, flying at 600m/s. Average rifle bullet speed is 800m/s.

Such speed allows launching platform to successfully attack 4 targets with in 30 seconds at maximum 10km range.

No other system, be it laser/radar SACLOS or radar/IR fire and forget, can match such performance, accuracy and countermeasure resistance.

It is exactly why Vikhr system is also used on SU-25 family of attack aircraft.

Do to such accuracy and speed, Vikhr is also capable of attacking airborne targets with its 5 meter proximity fused twin HEAT warhead with fragmentation belt.

In short, it is the only system of its kind, and has no equivalents anywhere in the world, thus making Hokum vastly superior to conventional Havoc.

Mi-28N has been chosen as Russia's main attack helicopter. Ka-50s and Ka-52s will be produced also, in smaller numbers, for use mainly for special operations. Mi-24s will continue flying for Russia for a long time to come and will be upgraded with the best technology available to be almost on par with the Mi-28Ns.

As was demonstrated with the AH-64's in Iraq, the main problem with turbine-engine powered rotorcraft in dusty combat conditions, is that the turboshaft engines are very susceptible to damage from ingested debris. The engines in the AH-64's are only averaging about 100 hrs. between overhauls in Iraq. And the AE1107 engines in the V-22's are now experiencing a similar problem.

An attack helo with an experienced crew is a formidable weapon....... provided it is ready for combat.

ka-52 is the greatest chopper ever created by any country PERIOD.

Ka-50 is more agile and manueverable, and its cockpit is better armored. Both aircraft have strengths and weaknesses. Ka-52 is better in attack role. They were made to be used together during missions.