We have a problem...


Listening to all arguments and researching on my own for more than two years now:
I feel that our time is running up if we want to reach any goal in the movement.

And here is why:

We see good people watching crappy videos and wondering about Osama fakes...
We see good people dissecting footage frame by frame to proof TV-Fakery...
We see good people watching impact videos and speculating about a flash...
We see good people breaking their minds about holes in Shanksville...
We see good people wondering if there were planes at the towers...
We see good people analyzing the FDR data over and over again...
We see good people speculating about a fly over...

And the worst of all...
We see good people fighting each other and dividing the movement.



And what did we gain so far...?



Even if there were no planes in NY, there was no plane in Shanksville, there was a fly over at the Pentagon, the confession tape was fabricated, there were bombs in these buildings, everything was planted and all footage was faked ... It would mean absolutely nothing!

Because we still would not know any names.

Yes, we probably would get our investigation! ... But we already know what happened in the first investigation: We would have another whitewash. THEY would classify important documents, THEY would distort the facts, THEY would refuse to tell the truth, THEY would deny their personal knowledge ... And finally some people would be punished!!!



And the real perpetrators would still be free...



So we cannot hope for another official whitewash. I do not want another JFK. I do not want another Oklahoma City Bombing. I do not want another Gulf of Tonkin. I do not want another “Piss off! ... Official case closed!”.

But this is what will happen if the Government changes in 2008.

And even if we still hope and struggle for justice, no ordinary citizen will think any longer about it.
They will think: “Bush and Cheney are gone. Everything is fine. And everything will get better now.”



So sad...



So what chance do we have? - What do we have to do?

Ask yourself:

“Do I want to change something?”

“Do I have a goal in the movement and what is it?”

“Am I doing the right thing/the right research to reach my goal?”

“Am I wasting my time and maybe there are better ways to reach my goal?”

“Am I part of the 9/11 movement?”

“So what is my goal to help the movement?”

If you know your personal goal then we are able to find a collective goal. A shared, defined goal that would help us to keep the movement on focus, to get us back on track, we could get rid of theories that doesn´t help us to reach the shared goal, we could stop the annoying infighting, we could research the unresearched, big smoking guns like ISI and the Saudis. We really would be able to move something, able to make a difference, perhaps change history books and our world.

And I believe we already have this shared goal:



Find. And punish the Perpetrators!



Now it is your decision to do something - or let the movement die. Discuss - and find a shared path. Start a poll if you want to check your friends opinons. Do something. I will now abstain for a while because this is not about me - and it needs some time to. Think about it!

Hit back by sticking to provable evidence and informing the public.

Even if they don't listen or laugh now, you are planting the seeds. So in the future, when the shiz hits the fan, there will be that seed and they will begin to realize, you were right.

We cannot win with violence or by force, nor do we want to hurt our fellow countrymen - we want to change their minds.

hit back by starting a revolution, I am all for that, but who is going to organise it???

Union! Brilliant and oddly moving.

We aren't getting names. We aren't getting the supreme Court to step in in any meaningful way. Regime change in '08 will not help much. It is the system that brings us traumatiing events and world Wars (we are in WWIV now, many in the know insist). It can be changed. It requires a change in how we live. It would require a new type of revolution. oh, and it ain't gonna happen on the internet. This is all the pretend part here.

Regarding the evils of our world, partly i am zen. The sun rises and sets.
Evil rules until we pass from this world. I've studied history and this is not so abnormal here.. It's a little more out-of-balance than usual, but that's mostly becuase of the technology and scale of what people can do now. that said and the calm it brings instilled, let's all talk, offline and out-of-choir. and most important listen too, just on the off-chance...

Solid tangible proof would be a good start.

The perps, have all but told you who, why and how they did it. I don't suppose that is good enough for the "enlightened"


I am sorry-- I am *really* not trying to start a flame session here.

To deny that radical islamic terrorists carried out 9/11, is bad enough.

But, to insist that fellow Americans decided to decimate New York and commit mass murder is damn irresponsible.

You base these beliefs on what? Originally? Loose change? Alex Jones? What?

The real data, information, and evidence is out there. It is just boring and tedious. Not packaged in a fancy video with a thumpin' beat.

Just because something is easily rammed down your throat doesn't mean it is true, or correct. Usually it's quite the opposite. Or else it wouldn't need the flashy production.

Bottom line:

To accuse people of mass murder without solid evidence at all. None! is contemptable and would be met with dehabilitating resistance.

Since there hasn't been a name dropped by the truth movement in regards to who the government perpetrators were. And I mean the "guys" who set the alleged explosives..The "Guy" that fired the alleged missle at the Pentagon. The "guy" that shot the alleged sidewinder at 93. ect. then, finding and naming, the legions of people who conspired, aided, or were necessary to pereptuate the lie.

It is mind-blowing how people can be absolutely convinced this conspiracy theory is factual. very bizzare.

I am personally writing each local news agency on a weekly basis. I am sending letters to each person in our state senate on a weekly basis.

I know, sad chance it will get me anywhere but what I am focusing on is the fact that things don't add up and not on all of the extra stuff that you pointed out. People are fighting the fight in the wrong way.

What is it all truly about? This is what it is about:

Every single major civilization/country in mankinds history has failed completely or at one point or another. Some have survived to live another day while many of the greatest ones are now in the text books. It is arrogant of us to think that just because we are the only super power on this planet (short lived as a few others are quickly gaining on us even now) that we can't fall. Well, I'll tell you this much. If the people don't reign in their government like the people didn't do in many of these other great civilizations we will share their same fate. Just because we live in a time of high technology doesn't mean that history will not repeat itself.

What's amazing is the fact that most people don't really even think about the fact that we are only 150 years removed from our own civil war. In retrospect that is not very long ago. I would hate to see this great country torn apart because its president has the arrogance to say that he is above the law because of national security. It's in his perspective to ignore the laws and constitution that this country was founded on. All for the farce of national security.

Why is there anything about September 11, 2001 that is classified? There shouldn't be one paper classified about that day. Take the stand and make a statement.

However, the approach of the people that rant and rave and get angry and shout is not the way to go.

This is nothing new....

Look at the Beatnick movement in the late 40's and 50's

Look at the Hippie movement in the late 60's and 70's

Look at the Bohemians in Europe

Look at the Anarchists (mostly in Europe) in the 30's and and in both the states and Europe in the 80's

They ALL had the same running theme: "If the people don't reign in their government like the people didn't do in many of these other great civilizations we will share their same fate. Just because we live in a time of high technology doesn't mean that history will not repeat itself."

At least the Beatnicks had provocative poetry, and mad bongo skillz.

And the Hippies had good sex and drugs, and great music, Creedence anyone?

The Punk Rockers brought an end to disco, which we are all grateful--Slam dancing, facial piercings, and off-tha-hook hairstylez.

The truth movement is pretty pedestrian compared to the others-- it basically consists of isolated people sitting in front of a computer screen, and on a few convienient Saturdays; standing on the graves of fallen countrymen, and telling everyone that will even look at them; that they are ignorant, and unenlightened to the "facts."

"Facts" that most people already know are unsupported distortions of reality.





[edit on 13-3-2007 by GwionX]

I appreciate the back-n-forth here. I feel you Gwion, even tho I disagree. As for what MY suspicions are based on, it was the fact that the attacks happened and no one was blamed but the bad guys, a simple-as-pie case of they attacked us and thot they'd win, don't matter how they got through, we had the whole post-9/11 agenda pre-written, doesn't matter why, and we're gonna just go ahead and do it all now that it suddently makes sense and people are waving their flags. Pretty convenient...

I can see your side that we seem irresponsible, and it's at least partly true. But can you see our side, at least understand how that all might look suspicious? Or are we just plain crazy/retarded?

You remember my post about brainwashing , right Caustic?

I think that is what's happening to some people. The reason it works is because it plays on peoples way of coping. I mean even if we didn't see the graphic details of what happened that day-- we still, deep down, know that lots of regular people just like you and I were murdered right in front of our eyes. It has a profound effect.

I think people feel safer believing our Goverment is some super-intelligent borglike monster; than to face the harsh reality that we are vunerable to many people in the world that absolutely hate us, and want to kill us, and we can't always stop them from doing so.

I also believe that there are hidden agendas within the Movement to bolster their own monitary and political gains. ( watch, caustic..at how many people are conditioned to snap back at that comment above: saying-YOu are brainwashed..The Government has the agenda and gets the monitary gain!)

I don't think any of the last 6 years has been convienent. It has been hell. It would have been much easier for everyone (including all levels of government) if 9/11 never happened.

The truth movement has no evidence, never has. It is based on a fiction movie, that got backing from agenda driven people.

Didn't really answer my question. I like you, Gwion, but that post is full of falacies I'll let someone else tackle. You already know I think where I stand on the "coping" thing. No benefits for the gov? Absolute BS and you know it. (graph averaged and simplified to protect copyright - sorry so large also)
Bush approval ratings, from "election" to Iraq War, for one quick example:

How could anyone stay afloat in that pattern WITHOUT 9/11 - and then the iraq War drive and renewed "patriotism" - intervening? And this is just one example mind you.

[edit on 14-3-2007 by Caustic Logic]

You remember my post about brainwashing , right Caustic?

And you are a pyschologist or psychology major? I have enjoyed many of your posts. I think of you as a sound minded person. However, you seem to be thinking that the brainwashing is against the government yet you fail to see the history of true 'brainwashing' that is used by the government.

They have been using psychology on the people for decades my friend.

Here is the biggest point to support that.

We say it is so so it must be. Period. If you argue then you are un-American.

If you challenge the government then all of a sudden you start to get smeared in the press.

You remember this statement by our beloved leader:

"If you aren't with us then you are with the terrorists."

It kind of leaves out any wiggle room for anything but either being with them, which means you must swallow what they give, or you are evil.

If you question their 'official story' then you are a terrorist. If you don't give in to getting a national ID card with an RF chip in it beginning in 2008 you are a terrorist.

That is what that statement says. It is brainwashing 101 my friend and you seem to think that people who question the government totally believe they are this evil borglike machine. No, the majority of government is made up of decent people that truly want to do what is right. It is the power center that can ruin a career or life that forces these people to vote one way or another. I don't think our government is evil. However, when THE leader of the so-called free world states that he is above the law and constitution because of national security (a blanket of security that is used WAY TOO MUCH and has been used as an excuse for murder on many occassions) then we must begin to question where our government stands.

Hey, I am a patriot. I love this country. I served in the military and worked in intelligence. This happened during the first Bushs' attempt at the Middle East. I know what freedoms I have.

However, with my time in the service I was able to also know that the so-called 'hatred' for this country is NOT what is being pushed on us. The majority of the world do not hate us. It is only after our military forces enter into their country and starts laying waste to their people that they start to hate us.

Brainwashing, yes. But not the way you are thinking.

Also, you brought up a ton of movements that tried to use, supposedly, the same argument on the fall of the great civilizations. Well, then tell me, why are they no longer around? Why did the great Soviet Union fall? It was a super power too. Sure, we can blame it on their government....oh wait, isn't it all about the government??....

I'm sorry, this one was just good enough to bump back up with nothing added.