Four-year-olds will get gay fairytales at school

Originally posted by 11Bravo
^ LOL, sit and spin!
Some would take that as an invite!

Admin edit to remove unacceptable language.

[edit on 13-3-2007 by SimonGray]

Originally posted by Scrub

Originally posted by 11Bravo
^ LOL, sit and spin!
Some would take that as an invite!

Admin edited out comments

OK...let's not turn this into an insult fest...that's not what ATS is about. Carefull, you're well on your way to receiving warnings from the Mods...and that's a bad thing.

[edit on 13-3-2007 by SimonGray]

OK folks, let's keep this conversation clean will you? Remember we have gay members here and some of the content I've seen in this thread would EASILY be considered offensive. If you need to, reread the T&C, in particular #2.

Is that all some of you can think about is sex?

Is that all that straight relationships are based on? No. Well obviously gay relationships are not based on sex either. This isn't a sex issue.


What about straight children who have gay parents?

Those children are going to go to school and be targets for others. Why not teach kids that it isn't okay to try to beat up the straight children who happen to have gay parents?

Like I said earlier, your kids can hear it from the teacher, or they can hear it from my kid: Some people have two moms (or dads). It's that simple.

Lots of fairy tales include implied romance between princes and princesses or other heterosexual couples. They don't have sex, and they don't point out their sexuality. Their sexuality is incidental to the story, and there is nothing sexual about the portrayal of their relationship. I see no reason why homosexual relationships cannot be portrayed in similarly neutral or incidental ways in fairy tales and other stories designed for young children.

I don't feel that this is any less innocent than a child being exposed to heterosexual parents. At the age of 4 they (usually) aren't interested in sex, or are "grossed out" by it. Sex is incidental to the fact that they have a mother and a father, in their mind. Likewise, the portrayal of a homosexual couple in a story seems likely to be incidental to the fact that two people are somehow "together." Children don't even understand mature romance at that age, if we consider this objectively. The stories aren't going to say, "Once upon a time there was a gay couple, and they had sex every night" anymore than they would say "Once upon a time there lived a prince and a princess, and they got kinky with each other every night." These are children's stories.

In my opinion, if the innocent portrayal of like-gendered couples in children's stories is to be disallowed, then so should the innocent portrayal of heterosexual couples.

It seems that we are creating a culture where homosexuality is encouraged. By the time these kids mature, how are they going to know whether the feelings they are having are coming from their true selves, or externally from the media?

Originally posted by coronamoz
It seems that we are creating a culture where homosexuality is encouraged. By the time these kids mature, how are they going to know whether the feelings they are having are coming from their true selves, or externally from the media?

How is homosexuality being encouraged in any way by this, or anything else? Nobody is telling these kids they should be homosexual. They are just being shown that it is a sexual preference of some, just as being heterosexual is.

God forbid that I should be lumped in with some of the more ignorant and offensive posters here but up to a point I have sympathy with the concerns expressed.

IMO it is part of a broader issue whereas through various channels kids are being made aware of or even sexualised far too early in their childhoods. There is an age and a time when growing children become more aware of the differences about people and I believe that is the time to teach them about alternative lifestyles. Before the naysayers start foaming, I'm not saying promote it or encourage it, neither am I saying go into gory details about it, merely to address the idea that not everyone is the same and discriminating against people on those grounds alone is wrong, that a healthy society can retain traditions and culture while also providing a wide enough margin to accomodate those who aren't capable of engaging in these things fully. isn't that a good leasson to teach children.

Obviously you will get the hateful and intolerant spouting off about this too but they always fail to see the irony that while speaking out to protect children they are screwing them up also. Take it from me if your kids gonna be gay....he's gonna be gay no matter what.

this would be sexualization if the kids were being told about the homosexuals in the story actually having sex. if they just kiss, it's no worse than sleeping beauty.

Originally posted by AceWombat04
Lots of fairy tales include implied romance between princes and princesses or other heterosexual couples. They don't have sex, and they don't point out their sexuality. Their sexuality is incidental to the story, and there is nothing sexual about the portrayal of their relationship. I see no reason why homosexual relationships cannot be portrayed in similarly neutral or incidental ways in fairy tales and other stories designed for young children.

Exactly!! This is what I was basically trying to say. No one is going to explain to four year olds "Hey kids,.. here's this Prince and Prince,.... they love each other,... this is what they do in bed, it's normal so accept it".

No one is going to tell a four year old what goes on behind closed doors. The ONLY function these fairy tales are supposed to serve is to make the kids accept that when they grow older they'll not only notice men and women in love with each other, but maybe they'll see men and men, or women and women in love with each other too. There's nothing explicitly sexual in these stories, just like there is nothing explicitly sexual in Snow White, or Sleeping Beauty (as has been pointed out by another poster).

When today's adults see two men or two women holding hands together, sometimes they start gawking, making judgements, etc. Kids who have been taught from an early age that this is something that happens, they are not going to react in the same way. They're not going to be as judgemental or afraid of these people who act "different", therefore they will be less likely to participate in a hate crime for instance.

You know, I used to be against teaching kids about homosexuality too. I even used to hate homosexuals the way a lot of people in this thread seem to. I used the same contrite arguments that are being used in this thread. (IE It's not natural, it'll turn kids gay, it'll harm kids mentally, etc.) Then I had a few experiences that turned my life around.

1. I stayed on a farm for a couple of years. Now, anyone who has stayed on a farm with free range animals of the same sex can tell you, homosexuality is normal. I've seen cats, dogs, horses, cows, goats, llamas, rats, rabbits, pigs, and mules all act in a homosexual way. Both male and female. This led me to realize that just because it's not something that occurs on a wide scale doesn't mean it's not normal.

2. I did a term paper on racism throughout history. As I poured over books, manuscripts, microfilm diaries and letters, I realized that many of the arguments I used against homosexuals were the same ones used against jews, blacks, muslims, native americans, polish people, etc. The only thing that really differed were who the claims were being laid against.

3. I spent a couple of years living with a gay couple. They weren't these weird freaks who were out to turn everyone else gay. They weren't always trying to molest little kids, or have sex with anything that moved. They were two perfectly normal couple who happened to be of the same sex.

As for those of you not wanting your kids to know about homosexuality, many of you are probably to late. I've spent the last 5 years with more kids than I have adults. You would be amazed at the things kids know. I've interacted with something like 2000 kids, and probably ~500 of them who hadn't already learned about gay people from sources outside of school.

[edit on 21-3-2007 by tebyen]

Originally posted by Shar
I just went through this on another thread about 7 year olds and up. So I'm not about to go through it again here. I am just going to say. NOOOOO!!!!! Tooooo young to teach such issues.

I totally agree with you.

Originally posted by 2manyquestions
All you haters, Listen very carefully....

I can't believe there is such outrage about this. You'd think schools were trying to brainwash children in the manner of that scene in the movie "Clockwork Orange".

Yep

I view this the same way I look at racism.

Comparing apples and oranges. Black is a race issue and something a person can not change. Gay is a choice issue. It is proven as a choice everytime someone claims to be gay, but has had a kid through being a hetrosexual.

What the schools are trying to do is teach children that a person should NOT be hated for the color of their skin, or their sexual orientation.

Again color of the skin has nothing to do with sexual orientation, and can not be compaired to it. This has no place in schools just as religion doesn't have a place in schools now. If we are to teach tolarence of race and sexual orientation, then schools should also teach tolerance of religious people including Christianity. You know how many gays and pro-gays down right hate Christians, and yet they allow that hate to spread to anyoen they come in contact with.

these are the kind of people a child might encounter in the future, we are setting ourselves up for yet more senseless violence.

They should be taught in the future when they are most likely to encouter it. Not at the tender age of 4.

A child is not going to turn gay by hearing about two men or two women caring for each other the way a man and a woman can care for each other.

But the seed is planted.

This will probably be the same type of fairy tales you and I heard as children,... and I certainly don't remember hearing or seeing any sex scenes in those stories.

You are forcing immorality on children whos parents do believe it to be immoral. What's next? Beastiality? Where do we draw the line on sexual immorality?

They should be able to walk the streets without having to feel hated, stared at, whispered about,.... or even fearing an attack from someone who simply hates the idea of two me or women loving each other.

I agree hate is wrong, and gay bashing is wrong. Beliving something is immoral doesn't mean that person hates.

You need to teach children from a very young age that these particular differences should NOT be feared.

No, they do not need to be taught this at a young age, especially when they are not even interested in this stuff. Most likely response to mom and dad kissing is ewwww, mommy and daddy are kissing. That's gross. If they think that is gross, then they certainly will think two men and women kissing is gross also.

How dare you teach your children that the gay kid should be looked at "differently", or denied his/her rights to show his/her love for another person without being looked at by you with disgust? How dare you provide such a horrible reason to hate?

Who ever said that? Just because most think it is immoral, doesn't mean we also think you don't have to right to practice such things. I would look at a gay the same way as I would look at someone who just committed adultry or had sex before marriage. Same type of sin.

I could have continued to look at them the same way I look at any of you when I see you in the street,...

Why did you look on them differently? Were you never taught to love thy neighbour as they self? When Jesus was asked who is my neighbour. Jesus responded with a parable that basically stated your enemy is your neighbour. Maybe not, especially if you didn't have a Christian upbringing. Otherwise most are taught to only love your friends and those who care about you.

Those of you who think this is going to turn your kids gay,..... you've got issues. The only thing this is going to do is help them not hate someone for a stupid reason. If they happen to be born gay,

It is not a fear of turning our kids gay. It is a concern that the schools and the gay community want to teach them against our belief system, which will cause confusion in the children. Sorry, no one is born gay. There is no gay gene. It is a choice.

Let the school do what you obviously cannot,.... teach your children to be accepting of "the different". This will help society in so many ways. Not only will it reduce "hate" crime, it will save a lot of men and women from getting into marriages that eventually break up the family, because one of them was trying to hide their homosexuality by pretending to be straight. It will save future children from being hated/resented or even kicked out of their parents' house. It will allow more people to lead happy lives.... where they don't have to hide, while watching us heterosexuals do whatever we want in public without being looked at differently. It will help homosexuals not look at us with resentment as we flaunt our love in public. It's time for a new, more tolerant, more accepting, kinder generation.

Sorry, the schools already do a very pitiful job just trying to educate them let alone trying to teach them morals and values. Who ever said we can't teach them to be accepting of others who are different without having to define that difference?

Hate crime has increased because the gays have shoved their agenda in or faces. It is not going to save any marriages. If one is truely born gay, they would never even be able to think of the oppsite sex in that manner let alone be able to touch them in a sexual way. Homosexuality is a choice.

Exactly where is this "choice" issue going to stop? At homosexuality? What about all the others hiding in the closet? Should orgies be accepted as normal? How about beastiality? Where is the line drawn? How many times is the line going to be redrawn?

I'm sure you hate the fact it was already drawn a very, long, long time ago with absolute morals. I'm sure you hate those who practice those absolute morals and insist on keeping them. You already called all of us haters.

Why don't you try to practice some of that tolerance you talk about with those of us you disagree with. Who is actually doing the hate crime against whom?

Originally posted by Mystery_Lady
Gay is a choice issue. It is proven as a choice everytime someone claims to be gay, but has had a kid through being a hetrosexual.

Or, maybe if it was more widely accepted, there would be less confusion amongst homosexual. Maybe less homosexuals would stay “in the closet.”. (*resulting in a miserable existence)

I’m not sure you can back up the claim that gays are gay by choice.

If we are to teach tolarence of race and sexual orientation, then schools should also teach tolerance of religious people including Christianity. You know how many gays and pro-gays down right hate Christians, and yet they allow that hate to spread to anyoen they come in contact with.

Does Fred Phelps ring any bells? In case you missed it, numerous Christians are claiming that their god told its people that being gay is an abomination. (in another fairy tale called the Bible) There is a reason for the hatred.

believing something is immoral doesn't mean that person hates.

But this immoral belief is actually hurting society. As pointed out above,

Originally posted by 2manyquestions
They should be able to walk the streets without having to feel hated, stared at, whispered about,.... or even fearing an attack from someone who simply hates the idea of two me or women loving each other.

These issues do need to be considered. In order to addressed them, I mean really address them, the silly Judeo-Christian claims behind such hatred have to be examined.

Is Christianity at the root of the Anti-Gay issue? Does Christianity teach us to “hate fags”?

Sadly, yes. It does. The Judeo-Christian God does hate homosexuals. (You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. Leviticus 18 :22)

I would look at a gay the same way as I would look at someone who just committed adultry or had sex before marriage. Same type of sin.

Why did you look on them differently? Were you never taught to love thy neighbour as they self?

Am I the only one who notices a contradiction here?

What will you do if one of your children grows up to be “a gay”?

Who ever said we can't teach them to be accepting of others who are different without having to define that difference?

The #1 priority of the education system is to form better corporate workers. Work as a team, take orders without questioning. (moral or otherwise)

I suspect the elite (NWO) probably support gay liberation for that reason alone. So that we can all get along at work.

Should orgies be accepted as normal?

I think you’re on to something here… :;

I'm sure you hate the fact it was already drawn a very, long, long time ago with absolute morals. I'm sure you hate those who practice those absolute morals and insist on keeping them.

Why should we agree that these particular claims have absolutism on morality?

Four years old is TOO YOUNG!

Also - school should be for abcs and 123s. Science and history.
Handwriting. Spelling. Art and Music.

Considering how little time there is in the school day to cover those things
that they are supposed to be in school for .... WHY are we wasting time on
indoctrination like this?

Leave sex ed to the parents and to science class.

Get back to teaching the basics that schools are supposed to be teaching.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
this is great. finally we'll get to see fairy tales that aren't dominated by traditional misogynistic gender roles. the prince won't come in and save the helpless innocent princess.

So what now?? The princesses will now save the princesses...don't make me laugh, this is absolute rubbish

Originally posted by Mystery_Lady
Who ever said that? Just because most think it is immoral, doesn't mean we also think you don't have to right to practice such things. I would look at a gay the same way as I would look at someone who just committed adultry or had sex before marriage. Same type of sin.

so, let's say I had many sexual partners (opposite sex) prior to my marrying my wife. you'd view me as a same type and level of sinner as a gay man who had sex with only one person, his life partner but they only had sex after their civil union?

Originally posted by Mystery_Lady
Hate crime has increased because the gays have shoved their agenda in or faces. It is not going to save any marriages. If one is truely born gay, they would never even be able to think of the oppsite sex in that manner let alone be able to touch them in a sexual way. Homosexuality is a choice.

Since when is acceptance an agenda? Homosexuals want what everyone else wants. To be accepted and not pointed at, whispered about, gawked at or ridiculed.

Well when you think about alot of the fairy tales and Nursery rhymes, they already contain quite a bit of questionable things.

Look at the Old Woman Who Lived in a Shoe - alot of kids, and no father figure. Today it might be named - "The very fertile whore who lived next store"

Or how about Old Mother Hubbard? Today it might be named - "Elderly Mom Abuses Dog"

Or a classic one. Jack & Jill. Today it might be named "Two stupid kids with no balance."

Seriously, who cares if in the stories being told, that some of them show Prince Charming checking out Captain Hook? Or if Goldilocks & Repunzel have a trist.

Now I don't want stories about the 7 dwarves visiting bathhouses having unprotected sex, or where the wolf was trying to kill Little Red Riding Hood because he was a closed minded redneck, and couldn't deal with the fact that Little Red, and her grandmother were.... well, you know.....

I wouldn't approve of EVERY story having a gay background, but a handful. Doesn't bother me in the least.

Originally posted by Valorian
So what now?? The princesses will now save the princesses...don't make me laugh, this is absolute rubbish

what's rubbish about that?

can a princess not save another princess?

...someone might call this propaganda for the athiest 'cause' (as it is from a Freethinker site)... or even 'gay agenda (which seems to be a popular term these days)'... still an interesting article...

What Would Jesus Say About Gay Rights?

by Dan Barker

A version of this "Pagan Pulpit" commentary ran on Freethought Radio on August 12, 2006.

The opposition to gay rights is orchestrated mainly by so-called bible-believing Christians. There are no non-religious reasons to be opposed to gay marriage. A modern secular democracy would never base its laws on the worship requirements of the ancient Mayans or Egyptians, so why should we conform to the standards of ritual purity in the three-thousand-year-old commandments of a primitive desert tribe?

However, if you do insist on using the bible as an excuse for hating homosexuals, it doesn't even get you halfway there. Lesbianism, for example, is not mentioned anywhere in Scripture.

Full Article: ffrf.org...

Mod Edit: Reduced External Quote.

[edit on 26/3/2007 by Mirthful Me]

[edit on 26-3-2007 by Harlowe JNkinz]